Lead Carbon Batteries

[Pausim]

Some specialist cold weather batteries incorporate heating elements and divert the charge current to the elements until the safe charging temperature is reached.

 

[BasherBaz]

On the subject of cold weather charging, the data sheet for the Leoch lead carbon AGM batteries gives a charging range of 0 centigrade to 40 centigrade. However the data sheet for the Expedition plus lead carbon gel batteries say a charging range of -20 centigrade to 50 centigrade, from other material i have read I was under the impression that lead carbon can be charged at low temperatures so I'm not sure why the Leoch batteries data sheet says what it does, it maybe needs clarifying somehow, perhaps an email to Leoch?

Edit: sorry the data sheet for the expedition plus battery is not for the lead carbon battery but for the VRLA gel battery I think this is an error by alpha batteries as it is the data sheet from the lead carbon battery page. I'll see if I can find the correct one.

Edit 2: Ok so I found the correct data sheet for the Expedition plus lead carbon battery and like the Leoch it has a charging range from 0 centigrade but to slightly a higher 50 centigrade. so there does not appear to be a cold weather charging advantage for lead carbon. I have a Leoch lead carbon fitted to my own day van and so far it's been great and charges really quickly, the cold weather charging rate wont affect myself but if this is an important factor then it needs clarifying to find out if you would be damaging the batteries charging them at minus 0 temperatures.

Hi Chris
Interesting as if you look at the label on the actual battery on the alpha website it claims an operating range between -30 and +60 degrees C. I appreciate it says operating not charging but yes I may well follow this up with Leoch. My understanding is they are one of the worlds biggest and oldest AGM battery manufacturers so they should be able to clear that up
Thanks

 

[BasherBaz]

Some specialist cold weather batteries incorporate heating elements and divert the charge current to the elements until the safe charging temperature is reached.

Yes I see Relion make the LT low temperature one that acts in the way you are describing and I have thought about installing 12v low wattage heating mats under the batteries as is quite common in Canada. I already do this with my fresh water tank and use 240v self regulating heating cable along the pipe work which run off my inverter at 11w a metre which had worked well on long stays in Sweden and ski resorts but if there’s a simpler, just as reliable option with the batteries I will take that road.

 

[ChrisL]

Hi Chris
Interesting as if you look at the label on the actual battery on the alpha website it claims an operating range between -30 and +60 degrees C. I appreciate it says operating not charging but yes I may well follow this up with Leoch. My understanding is they are one of the worlds biggest and oldest AGM battery manufacturers so they should be able to clear that up
Thanks

It is confusing, I looked a bit further into this and found that many AGM batteries have a charging range starting at 0 degrees centigrade but then you read other things that state that AGM batteries are better then lead acid in cold weather. So clarification from Leoch would be great, it may be that all that is required is a temperature sensor on the battery so that when the temperature is low the charger uses a higher charge voltage. My Schaudt B2B can do that.

 

[Pausim]

read other things that state that AGM batteries are better then lead acid in cold weather

That may be about better cold weather discharge performance. The performance of a battery is usually measured at +25°C but by - 20°C a lead acid battery could have lost nearly half it’s capacity. Perhaps AGM batteries do better than this? Alternatively it might be about physical freezing of the electrolyte which can happen when a lead acid battery is heavily discharged. Perhaps AGM are less prone to this?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BasherBaz]

Guys
Just to let you know I have emailed Leoch asking them about charging these lead carbon AGM batteries below 0 degrees C.
In the meantime it made me think about the 30 years plus I spent in the automotive and truck industry jump starting vehicles with lead acid wet cell batteries at well below freezing with the vast majority charging up with no adverse short term effects (unless the batteries had reached the end of their life) so obviously taking a charge from their own alternators even at these temperatures. The amperage applied in most cases from the jumper leads or booster packs far exceeded your average B2B charger output so I think we maybe overthinking this one.
Yes obviously the casualty battery temperature increases dramatically at these sort of amperages which is why I always advised people to slow charge the casualty battery if at all possible to prevent this or at least increase its lifespan but life isn’t that straight forward in most cases and they simply drove off charging at the fullalternator output.
My Votronic B2B has the ability to reduce the output by half simply by operating a dil switch, which is probably the best precaution if in this situation until the van/ batteries gets up to a more workable temperature. Before anyone asks yes I have seen batteries explode but always due to not following safety precautions not due to a correct jump start procedure. One by a colleague disconnecting the live terminal first and the spanner coming into contact with the chassis causing a massive short welding the spanner in place and exploding the battery causing permanent blinding to the techs one eye and temporary blindness in the other and to his hearing and a similar one to a colleague disconnecting a live feed to a starter motor having forgotten to disconnect the battery first with a similar outcome.
So what I’m getting at is that in my experience the lead acid and consequently lead carbon AGM batteries will take a charge below freezing but anything that can be done to ease the initial charge rate will reduce the rise in the casualty battery temperature hence reduce the risk of anything spectacular happening and increase their lifespan.
Incidentally their tech sheet shows as 86% capacity at 0 degrees C but doesn’t quote below this.

Hope this helps. I’ll update the post when I get a reply from Leoch.

 

[68c]

???

 

[BasherBaz]

Sorry, maybe I got a little carried away with the technical aspect.

Maybe just watch Ash Pollard under Lost in Europe on You Tube (even if its just to watch his dog Bolski )



He is currently living full time on a plot of land in his camper van in Northern Sweden at temperatures consistently below -20 degress C for weeks on end and has been for four months running AGM batteries and a 70amp B2B charger.

 

[Al n Val]

I fitted a pair of 100ah Leoch pure lead carbon batteries on the moho about 3 weeks ago after being recommended them by a mate whose had his about 6/8 months, it’s sat on the drive ever since tbh so I’ve no real term knowledge of them in actual use.
The 240w solar with Victron controller is keeping them up at around 13.4v and I’m fitting a Victron dc-dc charger this week, I’ve a new 2000w PSW inverter in as well so hopefully this first season once we are released will test them.

I went for these simply because they are around half the price of the cheaper Lipo’s that are filtering their way into the UK, I’ll wait until the quality Lipo’s drop in price in a few years time if I’m still here, before going down that route, hence fitting the Victron stuff now so I’ll be covered charging/control wise.

Al

 

[BasherBaz]

Ordered a pair of 150ah Leoch PLH+C lead carbons yesterday. Got over £130 off by price matching between Kuranda and Alpha Batteries so looking forward to seeing how they perform.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Al n Val]

Ordered a pair of 150ah Leoch PLH+C lead carbons yesterday. Got over £130 off by price matching between Kuranda and Alpha Batteries so looking forward to seeing how they perform.

remember you might need posts unless you already have some, I persuaded Alpha to throw me 6 in (2 spares) as my mate had one split on him.

150ah ones will be bloody heavy so i hope your young and fit

keep us posted as to what you think of them

 

[BasherBaz]

remember you might need posts unless you already have some, I persuaded Alpha to throw me 6 in (2 spares) as my mate had one split on him.

150ah ones will be bloody heavy so i hope your young and fit

keep us posted as to what you think of them

Yeah 50kg each. It’s John at Alpha that dropped the price by £65 each so thought that might be a bit cheeky. I have hydraulic crimpers from when I made up my first leads for years ago so hopefully will just make up new leads and terminals to match.
I have the height for the 210ah ones but would only leave me 200kgs of payload n the B2B chargers only 50amp so prob bit of an overkill.

 

[RogerIvy]

So it's a cost of the battery plus one year of gym membership prior to installing?

 

[BasherBaz]

So it's a cost of the battery plus one year of gym membership prior to installing?

 

[BasherBaz]

They’ve come with pull up straps so I can practice before attempting the world record.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[RogerIvy]

I go back to my original question and I now have a new question....

The Victron website says:

• more 500 cycles @ 100% DoD (discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C₂₀, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C₂₀)
• more 1000 cycles @ 60% DoD (discharge during three hours with I = 0,2C₂₀, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C₂₀)
• more 1400 cycles @ 40% DoD (discharge during two hours with I = 0,2C₂₀, immediately followed by recharge at I = 0,2C₂₀)

Leoch say of their battery:

• Up To 2000 cycles – over 16x the cycles of Flooded Batteries

So we can expect a maximum of 2000 cycles if we use (let's be generous and say) 50% of capacity.
If we look after our LifePO4 battery we get somewhere between 3000 and 4000 cycles.

So why would we buy Lead Carbon batteries?

 

[Al n Val]

So why would we buy Lead Carbon batteries?

how much are the equivalent Victron batteries?, do you have the capable charging equipment needed for them as well?

just asking tbh

 

[RogerIvy]

how much are the equivalent Victron batteries?

I don't know - there are so many other options

Do you have the capable charging equipment needed for them as well?

This is the one thing that makes Lithium expensive, possibly needing to change B2B charger. I had to get rid of my Sterling B2B. I went for a high-end Votronic triple-charger but could have bought a simple 30a B2B for £160 from RoadPro.
If the built-in EHU charger does typical lead acid phases then may need to be changed as well.

 

[Al n Val]

I don't know - there are so many other options


This is the one thing that makes Lithium expensive, possibly needing to change B2B charger. I had to get rid of my Sterling B2B. I went for a high-end Votronic triple-charger but could have bought a simple 30a B2B for £160 from RoadPro.
If the built-in EHU charger does typical lead acid phases then may need to be changed as well.

these are the issues i think you'll face my friend, cost can be quite substantial

my pair of very good quality (hopefully) Leoch LC 200ah Batteries was £450, to get the same quality Lifo was just over 4 x times that at £2000 and my Sargent charger was of no use to me, so combine that with a charger and battery monitor i was looking at circa £2500.

now i can afford that no problem but, and i'll be honest with you, i'm not an heavily in need of 12v power user because we use sites quite a bit as well as non ehu, so i couldn't see the point of the outlay. Things may well change in the future if I live long enough by which time my Victron equipment would have served me well and i'll be ready for the cheaper Lifo batteries when that times comes.

My experience with these Leoch batteries is limited mind you as they've only been on about a month but they did come recommended so i thought i'd give them a bash, that said my pair of Banner's have also been with out fault so i can't really knock then either

 

[BasherBaz]

I don't know - there are so many other options


This is the one thing that makes Lithium expensive, possibly needing to change B2B charger. I had to get rid of my Sterling B2B. I went for a high-end Votronic triple-charger but could have bought a simple 30a B2B for £160 from RoadPro.
If the built-in EHU charger does typical lead acid phases then may need to be changed as well.

Don't forget you'll more than likely have to change your solar charger if you have one as well if it doesn't have a Lifepo4 setting. From what I've been reading on solar websites, solar panel controllers need to see a load at all times or the voltage can go too high for lithium (around 20v). The BMS unit on a lifepo4 battery isolates the battery at full charge and the solar controller cannot then see the correct voltage. If when it re-connects the voltage is outside of 8.0v to 16.8v window this very quickly results in permanent damage if your current controller is not suitable.

Everyone has different requirements so no answer fits all but for our usage I applied the following;

Temperature discharge/operating range required as wide as possible.

Leoch PLH150FT-PD Lead Carbon Battery -40C to 65C

NDS L-150-P Lithium Battery -20C to 60C

Long guarantee.

Leoch PLH150FT-PD Lead Carbon Battery; 5 years

12v 150ah PLH+C 150FT Pure Lead Carbon Solar/Renewable Energy Battery (N/A) - Alpha Batteries

BATTERY IN BRIEF 12V 150Ah Ultra Deep Cycle battery for multiple applications – from Leoch’s Pure Lead Carbon series. Features • […]

www.alpha-batteries.co.uk

NDS L-150-P Lithium Battery; 3 years (only valid if had yearly inspection)
<Broken link removed>

Value for money

Leoch PLH150FT-PD Lead Carbon Battery £391.42 up to 2,500 cycles
<Broken link removed>

NDS L-150-P Lithium Battery £1875.00 5,000 cycles @ 50% depth of discharge
<Broken link removed>

So Lithium over 4.5 times the price for 2 times the amount of cycles...

Will you still have the same van then or are you sure that the batteries will fit in your next van?

Suitable for inverter use/ high discharge; Both fine

Quick recharge times; Both fine with my current 50a B2B charger and 20a solar charger and 30a mains charger. (I run two batteries in parallel.)

Weight
Leoch PLH150FT-PD Lead Carbon Battery 48kgs each
NDS L-150-P Lithium Battery 23kgs

Leochs not a problem for our van as have sufficient spare payload and room to lift in and out.

Other factors
My philosophy is keeping things as simple as possible helps reliability and ease of fixing at the side of the road.

Lithium batteries are only as good as the built in BMS that is installed in them. When the BMS fails so will your battery.

Why have this additional device to go wrong when you when there are other options on the market?

As I say this is our view, and like buying or building your van everyone's requirements are different. Fixed bed v fold away bed, usage, etc etc.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[BasherBaz]

Update

Slight correction to above on value for money see attached doc.

Value for money

Leoch PLH150FT-PD Lead Carbon Battery £391.42 2,000 cycles @ 50% depth of discharge
<Broken link removed>

NDS L-150-P Lithium Battery £1875.00 5,000 cycles @ 50% depth of discharge
<Broken link removed>

So Lithium over 4.5 times the price for 2.5 times the amount of cycles...

 

[Raul]

You don’t mind me telling you, those batteries are telecom (standby power) rack batteries with front terminals to aid paralleling on the rack. Not deep cycle.
If you keep a log on your batteries, you will find out that 2000 cycles at 50% DOD is impossible. Physically there is no space enough in that case to fit enough lead and active material, to produce that much energy. At 150ah, divide by 2 = 75ah x2000= 150000ah x 12v= 1800000wh or 1800kwh. Over 5 years ( warranty) that’s 360kwh per year. Let’s say you don’t cycle it every day, maybe a total 10 months out of the hole year. That would give you 36kwh per month and average a 1.2kwh daily. That’s a lot of power, you try take 1,2kwh each day out of that battery and see after 3-4 months if gives signs of 2000 cycles. The 2000 cycles are more realistic at 20% DOD.
Also, one kg of lead, can hold 35-40wh max, that’s what the chemistry limits are. So for the 150ah x12v = 1800wh devided by best scenario 40wh = 45kg lead, add solution about 1,5L per cell ( tall cell) , that’s 9L approx 9kg plus the lead 45kg plus the case and terminals 1kg a total 55kg for the battery. If it is close to that then it’s capacity is spot on of 150ah. The number of cycles, comes with the amount of lead oxide loaded on the plates and thickness of them. Usually at 50% DOD, with a 40wh per kg, they can go 1000-1200 cycles. The carbon bit, does not increase energy density or power density. Maybe a improvement of power. But the main bit is they prevent the plates of sulphate in partial state of charge. Trojan has experienced this with graphene in their industrial line series, with good results, but at a cost. Lithium washed that away.
This is my two penny worth,

 

[funflair]

Don't forget you'll more than likely have to change your solar charger if you have one as well if it doesn't have a Lifepo4 setting. From what I've been reading on solar websites, solar panel controllers need to see a load at all times or the voltage can go too high for lithium (around 20v). The BMS unit on a lifepo4 battery isolates the battery at full charge and the solar controller cannot then see the correct voltage. If when it re-connects the voltage is outside of 8.0v to 16.8v window this very quickly results in permanent damage if your current controller is not suitable.

I don’t understand how the BMS can disconnect to the point that a solar controller can not see the battery as it is still available to supply power so the solar will see it.

 

[BasherBaz]

You don’t mind me telling you, those batteries are telecom (standby power) rack batteries with front terminals to aid paralleling on the rack. Not deep cycle.
If you keep a log on your batteries, you will find out that 2000 cycles at 50% DOD is impossible. Physically there is no space enough in that case to fit enough lead and active material, to produce that much energy. At 150ah, divide by 2 = 75ah x2000= 150000ah x 12v= 1800000wh or 1800kwh. Over 5 years ( warranty) that’s 360kwh per year. Let’s say you don’t cycle it every day, maybe a total 10 months out of the hole year. That would give you 36kwh per month and average a 1.2kwh daily. That’s a lot of power, you try take 1,2kwh each day out of that battery and see after 3-4 months if gives signs of 2000 cycles. The 2000 cycles are more realistic at 20% DOD.
Also, one kg of lead, can hold 35-40wh max, that’s what the chemistry limits are. So for the 150ah x12v = 1800wh devided by best scenario 40wh = 45kg lead, add solution about 1,5L per cell ( tall cell) , that’s 9L approx 9kg plus the lead 45kg plus the case and terminals 1kg a total 55kg for the battery. If it is close to that then it’s capacity is spot on of 150ah. The number of cycles, comes with the amount of lead oxide loaded on the plates and thickness of them. Usually at 50% DOD, with a 40wh per kg, they can go 1000-1200 cycles. The carbon bit, does not increase energy density or power density. Maybe a improvement of power. But the main bit is they prevent the plates of sulphate in partial state of charge. Trojan has experienced this with graphene in their industrial line series, with good results, but at a cost. Lithium washed that away.
This is my two penny worth,

Thanks for your input.
I cant see us using anywhere near 1.2kwh daily so they still meet exceed my requirements and if they fail prematurely then we'll simply return them within the 5 year guarantee. I think its fair to say any such failure would be gradual not like a BMS unit on a Lithium which would be much more sudden so a higher chance of leading you stranded.

 

[Raul]

As an example to the BMS reference. I got mine LFP in use since summer ‘19. Not once I made use of the bms, except first initial charge. The bms is there as a fail safe and the normal operation is done within settings of charging and discharging equipment. The bms can leave you with no power to the solar controller over night. LV disconnect. If that happens , it means you are there to consume that power. That’s not a problem, the sun is not shining, and if the morning comes, you switch the solar off. To drain that much for the low voltage cut of is crazy, and abusive, normally you have a low voltage alarm at about 10-15 state of charge. That allows for small loads to get by.
On the other end at high voltage disconnect, it can’t happen, unless your charging equipment is not suitable or terrible wrong settings. Normally this is done conservatively in the settings so no bms needed to cut of, only a bit of balancing IF required.
BMS fail can happen if abused, but it’s not the end of the day. If your setting parameters are conservative, no bms needed. I know alt least 3 friends living off grid with home built batteries and no bms. Simple SSR solid state relay for LVD and HVD. The HVD disconnects the panels, leaving the chargers with the battery. The LVD disconnects all loads, with alarm and pre alarm. Simples.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Raul]

I don’t understand how the BMS can disconnect to the point that a solar controller can not see the battery as it is still available to supply power so the solar will see it.

He is mixing stuff up. The only time the bms can disconnect the battery from the solar controller is LVD low voltage disconnect. So if you discharge below the bms cut of it will leave your charger without battery. The high voltage disconnect, is not activated if your charger is within parameters or below. It does not disconnect when it finishes the charge, he got that wrong.
There are lifepo4 wall chargers that disconnect once charge is done, not the bms, to prevent floating. With solar, float is set way below to be inactive, or supply just enough for loads, without going in the battery if there is solar potential.

 

[BasherBaz]

You don’t mind me telling you, those batteries are telecom (standby power) rack batteries with front terminals to aid paralleling on the rack. Not deep cycle.
If you keep a log on your batteries, you will find out that 2000 cycles at 50% DOD is impossible. Physically there is no space enough in that case to fit enough lead and active material, to produce that much energy. At 150ah, divide by 2 = 75ah x2000= 150000ah x 12v= 1800000wh or 1800kwh. Over 5 years ( warranty) that’s 360kwh per year. Let’s say you don’t cycle it every day, maybe a total 10 months out of the hole year. That would give you 36kwh per month and average a 1.2kwh daily. That’s a lot of power, you try take 1,2kwh each day out of that battery and see after 3-4 months if gives signs of 2000 cycles. The 2000 cycles are more realistic at 20% DOD.
Also, one kg of lead, can hold 35-40wh max, that’s what the chemistry limits are. So for the 150ah x12v = 1800wh devided by best scenario 40wh = 45kg lead, add solution about 1,5L per cell ( tall cell) , that’s 9L approx 9kg plus the lead 45kg plus the case and terminals 1kg a total 55kg for the battery. If it is close to that then it’s capacity is spot on of 150ah. The number of cycles, comes with the amount of lead oxide loaded on the plates and thickness of them. Usually at 50% DOD, with a 40wh per kg, they can go 1000-1200 cycles. The carbon bit, does not increase energy density or power density. Maybe a improvement of power. But the main bit is they prevent the plates of sulphate in partial state of charge. Trojan has experienced this with graphene in their industrial line series, with good results, but at a cost. Lithium washed that away.
This is my two penny worth,

Raul, maybe you didn't notice but we run two in parallel so you are assuming a daily usage of 2.4kwh daily in a camper van? High by anyone's standards surely? So at a more realistic usage of 20% DoD they will easily last the five year guarantee, so I will be happy.
According to your calculations the batteries should weigh around 55kgs per battery which if you look at the technical data and what I stated is about right, so this matches the capacity you state suggesting the manufacturers claim is correct. Thank you.

 

[Raul]

I was not assuming anything. I was stating the figures provided. If you use two, then you adjust accordingly, to your use. What I was trying to point is obvious. The capacity is there if you say they have 55kg. I haven’t checked the spec, I was giving a example. I tried to be impartial, and explain that exploited to their figures, the cycle life is optimistic, or, mighty impressive if they do what it says. I use lead to, for quite some years. My house runs of 500kg of it. I have fitted tons of lead as well. And my experience led me to believe that cycle life is a difficult equation. But it relates directly to the build quality and thickness of the plates. You have thick plates, lots of cycles, but less space for more plates. Less plates, less charge discharge capability. More plates, more charge discharge, but less cycle because of thickness. In 4” inch space you have a choice: more thin plates or, less but thick plates. The big top manufacturers for industrial use, are more conservative with cycle life, and better at calendar life. It’s a well known technology with well over 120 years. The industrial market is more orientated for professional use, so the cycle life is not that important as the calendar life. The leisure and automotive consumer is not usually a professional user, so cycles are appealing.
I would be interested to see feedback as you use them.
One think for sure, the shallow the cycles, the better they perform.

 

[BasherBaz]

As an example to the BMS reference. I got mine LFP in use since summer ‘19. Not once I made use of the bms, except first initial charge. The bms is there as a fail safe and the normal operation is done within settings of charging and discharging equipment. The bms can leave you with no power to the solar controller over night. LV disconnect. If that happens , it means you are there to consume that power. That’s not a problem, the sun is not shining, and if the morning comes, you switch the solar off. To drain that much for the low voltage cut of is crazy, and abusive, normally you have a low voltage alarm at about 10-15 state of charge. That allows for small loads to get by.
On the other end at high voltage disconnect, it can’t happen, unless your charging equipment is not suitable or terrible wrong settings. Normally this is done conservatively in the settings so no bms needed to cut of, only a bit of balancing IF required.
BMS fail can happen if abused, but it’s not the end of the day. If your setting parameters are conservative, no bms needed. I know alt least 3 friends living off grid with home built batteries and no bms. Simple SSR solid state relay for LVD and HVD. The HVD disconnects the panels, leaving the chargers with the battery. The LVD disconnects all loads, with alarm and pre alarm. Simples.

Hi again Raul

Thanks for the actual user experience. The article I referred to regarding BMS disconnection was not my quote but as stated on a solar site. (I am currently trying to find it again) so I'm not saying its fact but it is another concern. Of course I agree Lithium are more superior but at a price.

I get the impression you are interested in this sort of information so below I have put a link to an article regarding Battery Performance Assessment carried out by Loughborough University comparing single Lead Acid, Lead Carbon and Lithium batteries for the purpose of cooking @ 1.2kwh. Of course the Lithium came out top, but at three times the cost per kwh.

https://www.mecs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Battery-Performance-Assessment-final-V1.0.pdf

 

[Raul]

Hi again Raul

Thanks for the actual user experience. The article I referred to regarding BMS disconnection was not my quote but as stated on a solar site. (I am currently trying to find it again) so I'm not saying its fact but it is another concern. Of course I agree Lithium are more superior but at a price.

I get the impression you are interested in this sort of information so below I have put a link to an article regarding Battery Performance Assessment carried out by Loughborough University comparing single Lead Acid, Lead Carbon and Lithium batteries for the purpose of cooking @ 1.2kwh. Of course the Lithium came out top, but at three times the cost per kwh.

https://www.mecs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Battery-Performance-Assessment-final-V1.0.pdf

That’s a impressive test for the Pb C, thanks for the link. I will dig out a link with a Australian company that has various batteries on test, life for the past 10 years or so. It takes no prisoners, neutral as neutral can be. You may heard of German sonnen and hoppeke. They were tested along with LG chem, tesla powerwall, winston, pylontech and the very praised simply phi. Simply phi failed and the manufacturer pulled from the test invoking abuse. It wasn’t, the testing is life on the net 24/7. That’s why the very high figures quoted by manufacturers usually are taken with reservation.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}