Impact of DEFRA Rules on Jasmin Camping Site

[EuroTrotters]

And what genius dreamt up that new rule?

And what’s the point of it?

Some tin hats on £120k a year no doubt

 

[Puddleduck]

Some of the CLs and CSs now ask for money up front for the first night's stay.

Can't say I blame them.

 

[CWH]

you can choose whether you want it to be members only and the big clubs chose members only. Now we are forced to be members only, that's not levelling the playing field.

Besides the impact for Jim, I think there is a much wider issue to be considered. I know some people have been critical of CAMPRA but they have helped to increase the number of aire type facilities and enlighten a number of local authorities. Much of that will be put in jeopardy by this reinterpretation of the law.

I wonder how this will work for CAMpRA exempted sites, since CAMpRA doesn't have a membership...

 

[Jim]

I wonder how this will work for CAMpRA exempted sites, since CAMpRA doesn't have a membership...

Yes they do. Otherwise the couldn’t be an exempted club.

 

[CWH]

Yes they do. Otherwise the couldn’t be an exempted club.

Ah yes, I see it's since they became Rally Group and changed from Accreditation to Certification.
I didn't even realise I was a member
Thanks for the correction.
"Membership of the CAMpRA Rally Group is free of charge, either by joining our Facebook Group or by staying at one of our Rallies or Aires."

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[Bessy765]

We have stayed overnight at a couple of pubs within 2 hours of home. One has a rule min spend of £10 per adult free to stay, had to make this rule as has vans turn up put out awnings and chairs, use the loo to empty cassette not even go in for a drink. Other one no charge but please use the pub, we stayed three nights ate and drank spent over £150 so it can work if people respect them.

 

[L' Hobo]

We have stayed overnight at a couple of pubs within 2 hours of home. One has a rule min spend of £10 per adult free to stay, had to make this rule as has vans turn up put out awnings and chairs, use the loo to empty cassette not even go in for a drink. Other one no charge but please use the pub, we stayed three nights ate and drank spent over £150 so it can work if people respect them.

It would be interesting why, in your opinion, one got abused and the other not?

Is it where each place is located or do you think it's the attitude of the Landlord?

As you say, " it can work if people respect them", who is people and who, or what, is them?
Hopefully, you mean M/Homers and the Locations?

Sadly, not everyone does and has been mentioned on the forum, sometimes the offenders, drive both expensive and cheap vehicles!

 

[Bessy765]

Both pubs made us extremely welcome one is just off a main trunk road (the troubled one) one in a tiny village. We drive an expensive van but always pay our way, we have also had a bargain basement one but still paid our way.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

New DEFRA rules state that clubs with exemption powers can now only exempt sites for their own members.

I'm confused about the meaning of the term 'exemption' and I've read most of this thread twice.
Does it mean:-
A. A club can exempt a site from a requirement for planning permission for a CS or CL?
B. A club can exempt a site from the club's normal requirement that that site only allows club members to stay on it?
C. Something else

 

[Terry]

I'm confused about the meaning of the term 'exemption' and I've read most of this thread twice.
Does it mean:-
A. A club can exempt a site from a requirement for planning permission for a CS or CL?
B. A club can exempt a site from the club's normal requirement that that site only allows club members to stay on it?
C. Something else

A. You can get a club exemption for five vans without getting planing (like a CL)

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[TheMobileWanderer]

A. You can get a club exemption for five vans without getting planing (like a CL)

I think the clubs don't issue planning permission though.
So, I wonder, can an individual or business open up a CS or CL, with up to 5 bays, without planning permission.

If so and once opened as CS or CL, is this thread about whether such sites can be members of a club whilst continuing to allow usage by people that are not members of that club?

 

[Terry]

I think the clubs don't issue planning permission though.
So, I wonder, can an individual or business open up a CS or CL, with up to 5 bays, without planning permission.

If so and once opened as CS or CL, is this thread about whether such sites can be members of a club whilst continuing to allow usage by people that are not members of that club?

Some clubs can issue exemptions, the big ones are obviously MCC, and CCC, smaller clubs like MHF can also issue exemptions for small 5 van sites. They used to be allowed non members to stay on sites but now they are only allowed members. Pressure from the 2 big clubs will no doubt be behind this new ruling although it was always the case

 

[nicholsong]

Has anybody found any legal order backing the ruling that changes DEFRA's policy and orders to exempted sites?

 

[bigtwin]

Has anybody found any legal order backing the ruling that changes DEFRA's policy and orders to exempted sites?

No, but we think that we know just the man for the job.

Ian

 

[nicholsong]

No, but we think that we know just the man for the job.

Ian

Yes, Chris ?

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[GJH]

Has anybody found any legal order backing the ruling that changes DEFRA's policy and orders to exempted sites?

It appears that when the legislation was first introduced (more than 60 years ago) the opinion of the government lawyers at the time was that exempted sites were for the members of the exempting organisation only.
As mentioned a couple of weeks ago (https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/foru...es-on-jasmin-camping-site.318688/post-6557736), back in 2014 a number of people (including myself) & clubs (MCC especially) challenged the interpretation and succeeded in changing the opinion of government lawyers.
It now appears that the bigger clubs have brought another challenge and succeeded in reversing the 2014 change.

As so often happens with legislation, some parts are open to interpretation. Government lawyers give an opinion and implementation is based on their advice. Such advice almost invariably comes with the caveat that only the courts can make a definite ruling. As far as I know, nobody has ever brought a court case on this subject. Presumably that would be quite a costly exercise.
As mentioned in my post referred to, I still have copies of the correspondence files and would be happy to send them to anyone if they intend arguing against the new ruling.

 

[L' Hobo]

It appears that when the legislation was first introduced (more than 60 years ago) the opinion of the government lawyers at the time was that exempted sites were for the members of the exempting organisation only.
As mentioned a couple of weeks ago (https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/foru...es-on-jasmin-camping-site.318688/post-6557736), back in 2014 a number of people (including myself) & clubs (MCC especially) challenged the interpretation and succeeded in changing the opinion of government lawyers.
It now appears that the bigger clubs have brought another challenge and succeeded in reversing the 2014 change.

As so often happens with legislation, some parts are open to interpretation. Government lawyers give an opinion and implementation is based on their advice. Such advice almost invariably comes with the caveat that only the courts can make a definite ruling. As far as I know, nobody has ever brought a court case on this subject. Presumably that would be quite a costly exercise.
As mentioned in my post referred to, I still have copies of the correspondence files and would be happy to send them to anyone if they intend arguing against the new ruling.

I was told by my Company Solicitor, that the reason why the word 'REASONABLE' appears so much in legal documents is, these documents were written by the Law establishment and can only be deciphered and decided upon, sometimes at great cost, by a Judge or Judges!

 

[Manic]

I wonder how this will work for CAMpRA exempted sites, since CAMpRA doesn't have a membership...

I posted asking the question and got the answer that it wouldn’t effect them because they’re a rally group, didn’t realise that.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

So, if my understanding from reading this thread is correct:
1. The big clubs can exempt small ones from planning legislation, effectively usurping it.

2. The bigger clubs can operate such that its members do not have full control of their business because they're prevented from accommodating non-members of those big clubs

I'm sure Jim is one ball but we're it something that may affect my business I'd make use of a first free consultation with a corporate lawyer.

Perhaps anti-trust, or restricting competition. And in what way should a private organisation be allowed potentially, to override planning law?!

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Planning permission/consent is required for use of any land. If you can show historically the land has had continuous use you are OK but anyone else needs the permission.

Larger campsites, including those operate but C&CC, C&MC thus operate under planning permissions, and probably additional local council licence conditions. Thus few allow 365day opening or even occupancy more than 21/28 days so they cannot be permanent residence.

To get round the planning consent issues, legislation has allowed government ministry, what is now DEFRA to authorise a number of organisations, in specific circumstances, to grant licences or temporary permissions, for camping, thus exempting them from planning. In this sense camping can include tents, caravans and / or motorhomes. The authorised organisations which include C&CC, C&MC, MCC, MHF, Campra and many others, have ability (what they can grant depends on their authority) subject to conditions including notifying the local planning, to licence a rally site (5 days I think), opetate temporary sites such as the C&CC THS for a few weeks, and permit 5 user CL/CS type sites.

It is the interpretation of the "exemption" licence from planning of the authorised organisations, such as Motorhomefun, that has now changed. The 5 pitch CL/CS, which will include many licenced Campra Aires and pub stops, together with Jasmin Camping, can only be used by the members of the licencing organisation.

Although C&CC and C&MC required their licenced sites to be member only, most other licensors were less restrictive.

This change will be a pain to many operators of smaller sites, and also users, yet will not encourage anyone to use the larger clubs.

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[TheMobileWanderer]

Thank you Kannon Fodda for your detailed explanation. The third from end paragraph, rather, the system explained within it, strikes me as a messy set-up.

Absurd.

My initial thought is that DEFRA is passing the buck to the operators and letting them run things as they choose for their own gain. I shall ponder and consider further.

 

[Just smiffy]

No longer king of your castle anymore…

No wonder land owners are fed up when you cant do what you want on your own land… (within reason)…

 

[L' Hobo]

No longer king of your castle anymore…

No wonder land owners are fed up when you cant do what you want on your own land… (within reason)…

I was watching 'Farming Life' which in my mind shows what it's REALLY in farming today for most, and it showed a couple in Scotland who's farm's existence was dependent on the income from the 3 Holiday Pods they had installed.

The husband felt he had failed as a Farmer!

 

[Grianan]

Is it to simplistic to think that by paying the camping fee the camper automatically is deemed a member of the club that granted exemption.

 

[B+W vanman]

No longer king of your castle anymore…

No wonder land owners are fed up when you cant do what you want on your own land… (within reason)…

Outrageous, ain’t it?
I had to tell Smithers, m’keeper, not to shoot any more of the two-legged varmits and as for the new mantraps- a total write-off……..

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[L' Hobo]

Is it to simplistic to think that by paying the camping fee the camper automatically is deemed a member of the club that granted exemption.

I think there is more to it than that, it requires signatures and addresses I THINK?

 

[chaser]

I just can't see a problem, folks come on here and sign up for free, then they are a free member so why can't they do that when they arrive at Jim's or even pay their dues and be a full member.

 

[nicholsong]

I just can't see a problem, folks come on here and sign up for free, then they are a free member so why can't they do that when they arrive at Jim's or even pay their dues and be a full member.

I would think that Jim can write the rules about who is or is not a 'Member' and that if he says a person is a Member that person is then allowed to stay on the campsite.

Or do DEFRA think that they should write the rules about membership of a private club? That in my opinion would be overreach and could be challenged in law, unless there is a provision in the exemption rules.

 

[jerryz]

What is the exemption for or about ???????/

 

[Whippet93]

What is classed as a club in this instance? Like others I use search 4 sites, for which there is a subscription/ membership so is this a club?

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