Impact of DEFRA Rules on Jasmin Camping Site

[L' Hobo]

Gary would have no chance of PP without handing big brown envelopes to planning councillors He may need a bigger one for Jim to give him a exemption

What are you doing up at this time of the morning?
I thought it was just us old folk that didn't need our beauty sleep?

 

[Terry]

What are you doing up at this time of the morning?
I thought it was just us old folk that didn't need our beauty sleep?

Lisa woke me up to watch free practice 1 on F1

 

[L' Hobo]

Lisa woke me up to watch free practice 1 on F1

She's too good for one, she should have been twins!
Your a lucky man!

 

[chaser]

As has been suggested, I don't see any problem with just throwing in your free membership, you won't lose by it any more than from people who come on but never actually pay their subs.
And you don't know they might even turn into full members.

 

[GJH]

As I understand it, the law has not changed only the guidance/interpretation from Natural England, as such they are in effect saying that it has never been legal for clubs to allow non members to use their sites. This perhaps means that in effect you have been running a campsite without planning permission and in breach of planning regulations, if 10 years have passed without enforcement action you are entitled to a “certificate of lawful use” and can carry on as you have always done. Would need some research but seems a logical argument to me.

Correct, it is the interpretation of the legislation by government lawyers which has changed back to what they original thought before I and others made the arguments in 2014 which led to the restriction being lifted.
I would expect that the determination of whether it could be established that use of land for a campsite was legal would rest on interpretation of the same legislation and that the government opinion would carry some weight in that.
As with so many such matters the fact is that only the courts can make a definitive decision one way or another. That means that if persuasion fails to make the government change its mind again the only way try to obtain a change is to raise a legal action against the government, which would inevitably be expensive.

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[MichaelT]

As has been suggested, I don't see any problem with just throwing in your free membership, you won't lose by it any more than from people who come on but never actually pay their subs.
And you don't know they might even turn into full members.

On a C&CC THS if you have your own unit you can temporarily join for £3.50 for your stay.

 

[The Wino]

As has been suggested, I don't see any problem with just throwing in your free membership, you won't lose by it any more than from people who come on but never actually pay their subs.
And you don't know they might even turn into full members.

I suppose the thing is what constitutes a " member". I would have thought just giving personal details and applying. It's hardly onerous. I think it's going to be like visiting clubs with a private drinks licence ( working mens clubs , sports clubs etc) you can either decide it's paying members only or just let people sign in. It's up to people running campsites if they want an excuse to make it payable or not.

 

[starquake]

Im very prepared to believe that the caravan club turnover circa £150m, does absolutely nothing do develop motorhome facilities in this country. Its a shame people with motorhomes don't boycott it until they change theirvways

The issue is two of our favourite sites are on the CL network (not CAMC themselves) and those owners do check membership.
I don't believe in penalising the local farmer who has spend a lot of money developing motorhome only facilities (caravans not welcome), because of this.
I also don't blame him for being with CAMC given as mentioned they hae the most members.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

There are probably many ways to get round a membership requirement, including issue of temporary registrations. I suspect that, legally, to satisfy law of contract, there has to be a consideration (usually money, but look at peppercorn ground rents), for the membership to be valid.

At Jasmin, apart from the paperwork hassle, easy enough to issue such temp membership. But it's a chore adding to time of running the site which I suspect isn't really a money spinner as few cls are big enough, any busy enough, for that £10-£15 (whatever it is) to cover even hourly rate of meet and greet, servicing bins and dump points, cutting grass ....

But for licenced sites by organisation such as MHF, MCC, Campra, including the various Aires temp memberships will be unmanageable. Someone has to validate, they'll have to be added to the master list even if later cancelled. For the small numbers the admin costs will be disproportionate.

 

[L' Hobo]

On a C&CC THS if you have your own unit you can temporarily join for £3.50 for your stay.

I THINK that only applies to SOME of the less populated ones after complaints from FULL members?

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[MichaelT]

I THINK that only applies to SOME of the less populated ones after complaints from FULL members?

No it's all however of course if it's a booked meet then only members.

 

[L' Hobo]

No it's all however of course if it's a booked meet then only members.

That's not how it reads in the Out & About magazine THS section where it states, membership must be shown but who am I to argue?

 

[GMak57]

As it’s “natural England” that’s advising / pushing this, will it only (or firstly) be implemented in England and Scotland/Wal/NI will have to legislate separately and catch up ?

 

[Terry]

However, as a rallying club with multiple exemptions, we must adhere strictly to the legislation to protect MHF’s right to hold rallies.

I think we’re all missing Jim’s point in his first post.

 

[eddie]

There are probably many ways to get round a membership requirement, including issue of temporary registrations. I suspect that, legally, to satisfy law of contract, there has to be a consideration (usually money, but look at peppercorn ground rents), for the membership to be valid.

At Jasmin, apart from the paperwork hassle, easy enough to issue such temp membership. But it's a chore adding to time of running the site which I suspect isn't really a money spinner as few cls are big enough, any busy enough, for that £10-£15 (whatever it is) to cover even hourly rate of meet and greet, servicing bins and dump points, cutting grass ....

But for licenced sites by organisation such as MHF, MCC, Campra, including the various Aires temp memberships will be unmanageable. Someone has to validate, they'll have to be added to the master list even if later cancelled. For the small numbers the admin costs will be disproportionate.

And that hits the nail on the head! There are loads of ways around it, however, is it worth it?

A Five van site that anyone can use can be unmanned pretty much, so an Autumnal weekend, one booked in on a Saturday night stopping you go to your mates for the weekend in your own camper to watch the rugby, starts to be hassle as instead of having an "Honesty box" to pop your £15 in, you have to stay to meet the visitor to check that the said visitor is actually a member, then the message that they are "running a bit late" and that they also need to do a "bit of shopping" on the way!

Now, those of you that always have all the answers, will say that that can be checked in advance, you'd think so but your forgetting that "common sense" isn't as common as you'd imagine! Having offered exclusive preferential discounts for MHF subscribers for as long as I can remember, I wanted my staff to ensure only genuine MHF subscribers got the discount, so Jim set up a list of discounts that only subscribers can access

"Can we have the MHF discount code please?"
"Yes my name is John Smith"
"No, can we have the MHF discount code please?"
"My Funster name is "I don't listen"
"No, Can we have the MHF discount code please?"
"Ah, my Funster number is 98345"
Sighs!
"No, Can we have the MHF discount code please?"

And this is to enable us to give a customer a potential discount of Hundreds of pounds, and in some cases even more

So the CL owner gets an email booking, "See you Saturday" emails back asking for a mobile number, confirms the booking "provisionally" and asks for proof of membership for a fifteen quid booking which is ignored, what is the CL owner going to do?

With the present system, he/she can bugger off for the weekend and "if" the person turns up, they can use the honesty box, with the update, they will have to be there

Or, cancel the booking and lock the gate!

Running a CL is not a money making exercise, it's pocket money at best, a sociable way to meet people, not a millstone around your neck pinning you 24/7 to the CL

So people, if you want Jasmin Camping to remain open (and it is a beautiful "gem" of a site nestled just down the road from one of the Country's best beaches, which is a Blue Flag beach) USE IT! If everyone of us booked a couple of nights at Jasmin Camping during 2025 we can be assured its a facility to use in future years

Jasmin Camping – Fun in the Sun

jasmincamping.com

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[GJH]

As it’s “natural England” that’s advising / pushing this, will it only (or firstly) be implemented in England and Scotland/Wal/NI will have to legislate separately and catch up ?

The legislation (Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 as amended) is the same throughout Great Britain. Natural England administers it in England and the devolved governments in Scotland and Wales (see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/camping...-certificates-know-the-rules-and-how-to-apply).
The interpretation of the legislation could, in theory, be different in Wales and Scotland but that is up to them.

 

[MichaelT]

That's not how it reads in the Out & About magazine THS section where it states, membership must be shown but who am I to argue?

Yes but you can join.

 

[jongood]

The issue is two of our favourite sites are on the CL network (not CAMC themselves) and those owners do check membership.
I don't believe in penalising the local farmer who has spend a lot of money developing motorhome only facilities (caravans not welcome), because of this.
I also don't blame him for being with CAMC given as mentioned they hae the most members.

So its not another victimless crime being pursued to protect the interests of big business then?

 

[cyberyacht]

I would imagine if CAMC didn't have a 'members only' policy for the CL network, its membership would plummet as many of us remain members only for this facility.

 

[L' Hobo]

Yes but you can join.

Do you not need a membership number to make an advanced booking that many of the THS's advise?

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[hja]

Besides the impact for Jim, I think there is a much wider issue to be considered. I know some people have been critical of CAMPRA but they have helped to increase the number of aire type facilities and enlighten a number of local authorities. Much of that will be put in jeopardy by this reinterpretation of the law.

 

[GJH]

Jim what exemption do pubs have that allows overnight stays?
Will this mean the end of pub stopovers ? Do pubs need exemptions or do they simply not bother.
Since you can join MHF and become a read only member what stopping you saying to public that you must join fun to stay on your site. As I read, it does not mention paying members so free membership would comply with DEFRA. I’m sure lots of pub stops have no memberships of any kind. Lots have a lot more than five vans staying overnight.

Most pubs &c don't bother even though, legally they should have a caravan site licence or exemption certificate.
They rely on the fact that local authorities are probably unaware unless somebody informs them and don't have the resources to spend on enforcement anyway.

 

[MichaelT]

Do you not need a membership number to make an advanced booking that many of the THS's advise?

Sorry I'm wrong, you can't stay on a THS in your own unit, see below the rules.

Important Points for Temporary Holiday Site Stewards
1. Stewards of THSs should be provided with a supply of Membership application forms and a Members Guest Book prior to the event start date. Both should be obtained from the organising Club unit Secretary.

2. Members may accommodate guests (non-members) in their unit/pitch on payment of £3.50 (inc. VAT) per adult for the duration of their stay, which is then retained by the Club Unit. The use of a small dome/ridge tent would be acceptable providing the use is for sleeping purposes only. The tent must be contained within the footprint of the pitch that has been allocated or permitted to the camping member, and is subject to the adherence of the Club’s six metre rule. Please refer to Paragraph 14 regarding cooking appliances within these units. The Guest fee is not required for Children under the age of 18. A Member’s Guest Book ticket should be issued for the duration of the stay at the event and is not transferable to another Temporary Holiday Site.

3. A non-member cannot stay at a THS with their own unit. To do so, they must enrol as a full member, and may join the Club at the THS, on completion of a Membership application form and payment of the relevant subscription, prior to pitching. 4. Overseas holders of a Camping Card International may camp at THSs, without the requirement of attending with a full Club member. This does not apply to UK based holders of a Camping Card International, who are still required to become a full Club member to attend THSs in their own unit.

 

[Red Sonja]

The £3.50 non member fee is paid for a non member camping with a member and in their unit. I have paid it a few times when my Son has joined us

You have to be a member to camp on a THS.

 

[Keep Right On]

Jim what exemption do pubs have that allows overnight stays?
Will this mean the end of pub stopovers ? Do pubs need exemptions or do they simply not bother.
Since you can join MHF and become a read only member what stopping you saying to public that you must join fun to stay on your site. As I read, it does not mention paying members so free membership would comply with DEFRA. I’m sure lots of pub stops have no memberships of any kind. Lots have a lot more than five vans staying overnight.

Surely there's a difference between a camp site (with facilities - water, waste EHU) and a car park (with no facilities)?

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[Terry]

Surely there's a difference between a camp site (with facilities - water, waste EHU) and a car park (with no facilities)?

Loads of pubs have Elsan points, taps and some have leccy - still don’t know if they have licenses
Perhaps they are like most places in Lincolnshire and simply don’t bother about permits etc, just take no notice.

 

[Keep Right On]

I would imagine if CAMC didn't have a 'members only' policy for the CL network, its membership would plummet as many of us remain members only for this facility.

Always thought CL's were a cheap site network. We usually stay on a brilliant one near Exeter but each of the 5 hard standing pitches are fully serviced with own water, EHU and waste. It's £30 a night inc leckie but I reckon its worth it

 

[cyberyacht]

CLs are trying to be mini sites these days and even those with minimal facs are charging silly money. It's not the cheap network it used to be.

 

[GJH]

Surely there's a difference between a camp site (with facilities - water, waste EHU) and a car park (with no facilities)?

Not as far as the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 is concerned: "“caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed".

 

[Jabstatt]

Natural England are delaying a road scheme here for a year to make sure the grass can grow.

Also holding up the A47 trunking because of frogs.

Tony

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