Hot brakes

[The Dotties]

I learned engine braking many moons ago with lorries and buses with vacuum brakes.
Started on the level with crap brakes, and things would then go the same way as the hill!

 

[Ivory55]

When being taught to drive now, it’s gears to go and brakes to slow. So not entirely people fault if they overheated brakes on a long downhill run.

 

[TerryL]

Yes, modern driving teaching seem to emphasize using the brakes to slow down rather than the way many of us oldies were taught, to use the gears. Reasoning seems to be less wear and tear, which I can't really argue with. As a coach driver we were always taught to anticipate the situation in front of us so the brakes tended to only be used for bringing the vehicle to an absolute stop thus giving the passengers a smoother ride (doesn't seem to apply to bus drivers though!). Our fitters used to go nuts because they were forever having to sort out glazed brake shoes, caused by light braking.

It's rare I use hard braking these days, just select the correct gear ready to accelerate away. But on hills it's down-change a gear or two and intermittent braking - if I'm going too slowly for the traffic behind me, well, tough! A very good colleague of mine was killed in the French Alps when the brakes on his coach literally burnt out (won't go into the reasons why, still part of the inquiry). Fortunately although there were a couple of injuries nobody else was hurt in the ensuing fire (he was trapped).

 

[Tea Bag]

Hi.

When using only brakes going downhill your brake fluid boils, now the physics bit, brake fluid cannot be compressed but, when it boils & turns to steam it then becomes compressible, the next thing that

Thats exactly what happens,plus hot shoe brake fade....
Tea Bag

 

[Mr B]

Ahhh. The smell of a well used brake pad and clenched buuuuutox cheeks.....nothing beats it.
No more emergency stopping..... it’s called coming to a halt with grace.....
We’ve all been there???

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[andynkim]

The reason engine breaking is frowned on is it only acts on 2 wheels and can make the vehicle unstable ( assuming 2 wheel drive) with modern cars having abs it is safer to use the brakes.

Obviously old uns know better.

 

[TerryL]

ABS won't stop brakes overheating, just prevents them from locking the wheels.

Can see your point about instability. Of course many (most?) modern vehicles are front-wheel drive whereas in my formative years they were rear-wheel drive so theoretically inherently more stable.

 

[ambulancekidd]

The reason engine breaking is frowned on is it only acts on 2 wheels and can make the vehicle unstable ( assuming 2 wheel drive) with modern cars having abs it is safer to use the brakes.

Obviously old uns know better.

ABS suffers from the same issues as any other system & should not be used solely to retard any vehicle, particularly on long steep descents.
Land Rover have a history of using ABS in a "Hill Descent control" mode for many years but, having used this very system to descend Hard Knot Pass in the Lake District, I can tell you that it lasts for about 3 or 4 corners before the warning light appears to tell you "System Unavailable" due to the colossal heat build up in the system.
However, being a true Land Rover, simply slip into low gearbox & the descent is perfect with no use of the brakes whatsoever.

If you choose to believe your driving instructors idea of not using gears to slow a vehicle, please, please, pretty please do not do it when I'm anywhere near you?

Oh incidentally, two of our friends have fairly recent passed driving tests & their instructor told them to park with hand brake on & OUT of gear! That's another kettle of fish but, I for one will always park in gear & handbrake on, even wheels pointing to the kerb for a belt & braces approach.

 

[Podney]

It’s a pity that people are no longer taught to use their gears to slow down. They may never need to use what they learn,but surely they should know about it?

 

[HandyAndy]

ABS suffers from the same issues as any other system & should not be used solely to retard any vehicle, particularly on long steep descents.
Land Rover have a history of using ABS in a "Hill Descent control" mode for many years but, having used this very system to descend Hard Knot Pass in the Lake District, I can tell you that it lasts for about 3 or 4 corners before the warning light appears to tell you "System Unavailable" due to the colossal heat build up in the system.
However, being a true Land Rover, simply slip into low gearbox & the descent is perfect with no use of the brakes whatsoever.

If you choose to believe your driving instructors idea of not using gears to slow a vehicle, please, please, pretty please do not do it when I'm anywhere near you?

Oh incidentally, two of our friends have fairly recent passed driving tests & their instructor told them to park with hand brake on & OUT of gear! That's another kettle of fish but, I for one will always park in gear & handbrake on, even wheels pointing to the kerb for a belt & braces approach.

Not sure how you managed that as Hill descent is only available in low range anyway.
Source... This disco sat outside my window

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[ambulancekidd]

Not sure how you managed that as Hill descent is only available in low range anyway.
Source... This disco sat outside my window

Quite correct Andy, my point was that even the hill descent control isn't perfect & that relying on brakes alone isn't recommended even when the system is as good as Land Rovers have.
I have owned many Landy's from 109s through to L322s.

 

[Wellington]

I was actually criticised for changing down on slowing. The examiner asked if I had I learned to drive in a old banger with no brakes! I was also taught to park out if gear. I only leave it in gear if I’m worried the handbrake won’t hold on a steep slope.

This is the problem with Apple maps. It just loves tiddly little roads. No problem in the car, a pita in the Motorhome. Oh for a Co-Pilot who wasn’t engrossed in Barbie, and knows left from right.

 

[Yorick]

In 35 years of track riding, I never used the rear brake on the bike. It was inconsistent, whereas engine braking was always consistent.

 

[andynkim]

The reason engine breaking is frowned on is it only acts on 2 wheels and can make the vehicle unstable ( assuming 2 wheel drive) with modern cars having abs it is safer to use the brakes.

Obviously old uns know better.

I was only saying that that is why it is not taught by driving instructors anymore. of course you use engine braking when appropriate.

Change down on a slippery corner with front or rear wheel drive or even 4 wheel drive and the results could leave an inexperienced driver in a ditch.

 

[MR. FUSION]

I hope you never find this advice useful, but here it is anyway. If a truck has failed brakes on a long steep hill, there is often a thing called an 'escape lane'. It's basically a kind of layby, but it's really a long trench full of loose gravel. It will bring a runaway vehicle to a stop. Even a heavy truck. As I say, hope you never need one, but it's as well to know about them.

I saw a hired moho four hubs hub deep in an escape lane in Spain Two things had happened, the drivers couldn't read the sign for an escape lane and thought it was an exit, but also the gravel in the escape lane was the same colour as the road surface. Spanish schoolboy error methinks. That moho would have taken some extraction.

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[Spriddler]

Not part of the uk driving lessons now I am told.

I was taught to gear down in my lessons in a mini!.

My neighbour passed her driving test, first time.

Lessons were all on the flat around town.

When she went out to the hills for the first time, she came to me for help when she got back.

“Something wrong with my car” she said.

I said what ?

“ when I go uphill, it vibrates, slows down and then stalls”. “ I have to turn the engine off every time and start off again”. Each time, when I am near the top of the hill, it slows and stalls again”.

When I asked if she geared down?. She had no idea what I was talking about.

She then got an automatic, first day out she kept pressing the brake thinking it was some kind of “big combined clutch/brake pedal”.

1st day, kept slamming on in-front of drivers. Until someone pulled her over to educate her.

FECKING SCARY WHO DRIVES ONE TON-PLUS OF METAL AROUND THESE DAYS

She's not alone. It's been on here before but I challenge anyone not to laugh at this driver:

 

[simsy56]

I was only saying that that is why it is not taught by driving instructors anymore. of course you use engine braking when appropriate.

Change down on a slippery corner with front or rear wheel drive or even 4 wheel drive and the results could leave an inexperienced driver in a ditch.

Hit the brakes on a slippery corner and see what happens.

Craig

 

[simsy56]

Coming down a long steep gradient in an artic with over thirty tons pushing it, you soon learn how to change down, and not rely on brakes alone, as well as keeping it from folding up like a switch blade knife, anyone who has driven an HGV will know what brake fade is, and how to sweat when it happens.

Craig

 

[Servo]

She's not alone. It's been on here before but I challenge anyone not to laugh at this driver:

Yep I’d be daft enough to believe it ? ? ? ? ? ?

 

[autorouter]

Coming down a long steep gradient in an artic with over thirty tons pushing it, you soon learn how to change down, and not rely on brakes alone, as well as keeping it from folding up like a switch blade knife, anyone who has driven an HGV will know what brake fade is, and how to sweat when it happens.

From the other point of view, remember that many people with their first motorhome have never driven anything bigger than a family car, and probably never in the mountains either. They don't have the concept of dissipating the energy of a vehicle of four tons or more by using the engine rotational resistance. They don't even know that they don't know.

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[HandyAndy]

I was actually criticised for changing down on slowing. The examiner asked if I had I learned to drive in a old banger with no brakes! I was also taught to park out if gear. I only leave it in gear if I’m worried the handbrake won’t hold on a steep slope.

This is the problem with Apple maps. It just loves tiddly little roads. No problem in the car, a pita in the Motorhome. Oh for a Co-Pilot who wasn’t engrossed in Barbie, and knows left from right.

Apple maps! Good god that's hopeless.
Use Google maps woman!!

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Brilliant free navigation app, I stick this on Satellite view on the iPad pro (the big 12" un ooh err) and prop it up in the passenger dash space cubby thing for my old dear to see what's around.
Louder than my hopeless TomTom and less annoying with a nicer voice too.
They do sometimes disagree on which way to go though and Google maps is the quickest to "re route" when she realises I'm not going where she told me.

 

[Wellington]

The iPads don’t have gps, though. And google maps Is awful on iPhones. The stupid sidebars cover up the whole screen!

From the other point of view, remember that many people with their first motorhome have never driven anything bigger than a family car, and probably never in the mountains either. They don't have the concept of dissipating the energy of a vehicle of four tons or more by using the engine rotational resistance. They don't even know that they don't know.

Precisely!

 

[Silver-Fox]

ABS won't stop brakes overheating, just prevents them from locking the wheels

At least before the fluid boils, then it doesn’t matter abs or not no brakes ?

 

[Silver-Fox]

In 35 years of track riding, I never used the rear brake on the bike. It was inconsistent, whereas engine braking was always consistent.

I’m no track day god but always use the rear brake.
But then I started riding with drum brakes front and rear.
Also rode a lot of trials ?

 

[Silver-Fox]

The iPads don’t have gps, though. And google maps Is awful on iPhones. The stupid sidebars cover up the whole screen!


Precisely!

Can you not tether your iPad to the phone?

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[Guigsy]

You you can use engine braking alone on a motorhome across most of the UK's roads with enough forward planning.

But anything steeper down than a sustained 15% on the Fiat 2.3 engine and you'll find you'll naturally be pressing the middle pedal because you're worried about what happens above 4000rpm. Maybe it does drag enough to cap the speed, or maybe the valves pop out? I daren't find out.

The thread was originally about the Tuscan hills. Although they aren't high, they roll to quite steep slopes and the bends are sharp, so I'd be using brakes as well as a low gear.

 

[Wellington]

Can you not tether your iPad to the phone?

That’s exactly what I thought I’d do, but it doesn’t work. The gps jiggery pokery doesn’t get magicked over with tethering. Or something.

Despite its reputation, I quite like Apple maps as an interface, it’s what I’m used to, and it cheerfully listens to Campercontact when I press ‘navigate to...’ so that’s what I’ve neen using. To be fair, for part of this route I think it was unavoidable and it’s been pretty good the rest of the time.

 

[tonyidle]

Coming down a long steep gradient in an artic with over thirty tons pushing it, you soon learn how to change down, and not rely on brakes alone, as well as keeping it from folding up like a switch blade knife, anyone who has driven an HGV will know what brake fade is, and how to sweat when it happens.

Craig

In the '50s my Dad drove an Albion Reiver truck. When descending Shap Fell travelling South a downchange required handbrake full on, change down, release handbrake. If done without the brake the wagon accelerated so quickly during the change that the lower gear couldn't be selected. For anyone who hasn't experienced a loaded truck on a steep downhill it's impossible to imagine the acceleration. There's a layby probably 300 yards from the bottom of the hill. My Dad used to release the brakes & engage Neutral at the layby and the truck accelerated from around 25mph as we passed the layby to 70mph through the dip at the bottom - enough to get up the other side of the dip without help from the engine.

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[ambulancekidd]

In the '50s my Dad drove an Albion Reiver truck. When descending Shap Fell travelling South a downchange required handbrake full on, change down, release handbrake. If done without the brake the wagon accelerated so quickly during the change that the lower gear couldn't be selected. For anyone who hasn't experienced a loaded truck on a steep downhill it's impossible to imagine the acceleration. There's a layby probably 300 yards from the bottom of the hill. My Dad used to release the brakes & engage Neutral at the layby and the truck accelerated from around 25mph as we passed the layby to 70mph through the dip at the bottom - enough to get up the other side of the dip without help from the engine.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

This descent is infamous & if memory serves me right the bridge at the bottom is Hucks Bridge.
The daughter of the garage owner there wound up The Leyland Clock every day for years.

My mates dad drove an Albion Reiver & we often went with his in the summer months.

 

[tonyidle]

This descent is infamous & if memory serves me right the bridge at the bottom is Hucks Bridge.
The daughter of the garage owner there wound up The Leyland Clock every day for years.

My mates dad drove an Albion Reiver & we often went with his in the summer months.

View attachment 322981

It is known locally as Hucks Bridge or Hucks Dip but is actually High Borrowbridge. The clock winder was a lady from a farm on the fell behind the clock. The clock is now at the Brewery Theatre in Kendal and I hear that even some locals think it was originally on the summit rather than 1/4 mile South of Hucks Bridge. The road is only infamous from the days when wagons had neither brakes nor power - it's a nice drive over now. I was born in Shap so the fell road was and is one of my favourite motorcycling roads. I recorded my highest speed ever on two wheels through Hucks Dip . Shap to Kendal used to take us nine minutes back in the day. A lot of my Dads loads were from Shap Granite Works so most days took him over the fell. He had some hair-raising tales about the activities of some truck drivers unfamiliar with the road.

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