Help Urgent my vans tried to kill me

[Oscar]

Fingers x'd that you get sorted soon, wishing you all the best x

 

[Gromett]

I know very little about hydraulics only what I have learned off the AvE channel.

As it is only one that is causing a problem could it be a seal on the jack in question. Then when you pushed it right out and right back in again it reseated it? Possibly you have temporarily fixed the issue but will likely happen again?

As I say, I have very limited hydraulic knowledge so am probably miles out on this one.

 

[Badknee]

Sounds very odd. I think when the system retracts it will normally close all the valves (Both up and down circuits) about 5 secs after it detects they are fully up. That’s the noise you hear after it has stopped pumping. It does this to ensure the jacks can’t drop while travelling. It would take a leak on both the up and the down circuit to drop a jack then.

Mick told me that the noise of the pump running is to release the pressure out of the hoses which makes a lot of sense and it is a trick that Mick designed into the system.

 

[DangerMousy]

In the car park, missed our train so on the 5:50

Only just seen this....think we were parked in front of you in the tunnel car park earlier.

There was another MH who seemed to have problems with their jacks too....not sure if they tried to drive off with them down, or whether theirs also came down by themselves.

Hope you manage to get home ok!

 

[ceejayt]

I had a problem with my E and P jacks when I was in America - all went haywire. I spoke to Mick at SAP - it was a simple fix - had to cut all the power and then restart - fixed it straight away.

There is a reset button somewhere near the pump I think but just cutting all power worked to reset it. Hope you get it sorted

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[Rudski01]

I know very little about hydraulics only what I have learned off the AvE channel.

As it is only one that is causing a problem could it be a seal on the jack in question. Then when you pushed it right out and right back in again it reseated it? Possibly you have temporarily fixed the issue but will likely happen again?

As I say, I have very limited hydraulic knowledge so am probably miles out on this one.

Possibly will find out in the morning, back on British soil so a bit easier to deal with

 

[Rudski01]

Only just seen this....think we were parked in front of you in the tunnel car park earlier.

There was another MH who seemed to have problems with their jacks too....not sure if they tried to drive off with them down, or whether theirs also came down by themselves.

Hope you manage to get home ok!

Yes I got out to give them a heads up their rear jacks were down but they sorted it before I could get over.
At Blackhorse site, long drive in the morning watch this space

 

[Gromett]

Possibly will find out in the morning, back on British soil so a bit easier to deal with

Please let us know how you get on and that you are safe once it is sorted. Thanks

 

[intokenny]

I hope you have a restfull night & sleep well. At least your in this country which hopefully makes things easier. Good luck for tomoorow.

 

[PeteH]

Hydraulic fluid is generally mineral oil-based so shouldn't be hygroscopic. Water can till get in though and because it can't mix with the oil usually settles somewhere inconvenient to cause corrosion.

All Mineral based oils will absorb some water. usually from the atmosphere (condensation) and is the reason why Brake Fluid (ie. DOT 3,4 etc)) should be replaced periodically in fact every 2 years in vehicles which are not used daily. Modern Synthetics dont, Hence why many Classic Cars are now put on to Synthetic Brake fluid.

My R-V was laid up during the House build (we lived in it). I lost brakes on a minor road in Lincolnshire due to the brake fluid "boiling". A Real "Brown Trouser" moment!. A weekend spent on a C-L pumping the brakes and replacing all the fluid was the cure. You can have it sample and tested, but in general the cost outweighs the cost of replacement.

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[tonyidle]

All Mineral based oils will absorb some water. usually from the atmosphere (condensation) and is the reason why Brake Fluid (ie. DOT 3,4 etc)) should be replaced periodically in fact every 2 years in vehicles which are not used daily. Modern Synthetics dont, Hence why many Classic Cars are now put on to Synthetic Brake fluid.

My R-V was laid up during the House build (we lived in it). I lost brakes on a minor road in Lincolnshire due to the brake fluid "boiling". A Real "Brown Trouser" moment!. A weekend spent on a C-L pumping the brakes and replacing all the fluid was the cure. You can have it sample and tested, but in general the cost outweighs the cost of replacement.

The point I was making really is that brake fluid is designed to absorb water to prevent it collecting where it will do real harm. Other mineral oils (primarily those designed specifically for lubrication) do as you say but not to the same extent as "normal" brake fluid. I have some experience of using synthetic (silicon-based) brake fluid. It certainly doesn't absorb water but any that enters the braking system eventually pools at the lowest point - normally a rear drum brake cylinder. Your last point about brake fluid is more important than most people realise - water absorbed by brake fluid is invisible, doesn't do any real harm to the braking system, but dramatically lowers the fluid boiling point even in small quantities. I change the fluid when I change pads and keep an eye on it with an annual dip test using a cheap conductance tester.

 

[Podney]

And there was me thinking “maybe I should get self levelling jacks fitted”.......funsters seem to swear by them.

Now,I see that funsters have good cause to swear AT them!

I know anything can go wrong,but surely something as potentially dangerous as this should have a fail safe system??
Its obviously happened before,probably quite a few times

Do other manufacturers have better safety features,I wonder?

 

[PeteH]

And there was me thinking “maybe I should get self levelling jacks fitted”.......funsters seem to swear by them.

Now,I see that funsters have good cause to swear AT them!

I know anything can go wrong,but surely something as potentially dangerous as this should have a fail safe system??
Its obviously happened before,probably quite a few times

Do other manufacturers have better safety features,I wonder?

My Winnebago, had "Kick Back" Jacks Where the Legs Fold rearwards. But I have never seen them on a European Vehicle. You had to be careful about Not using them on too steep a slope facing forward though, and a warning in the handbook!, as it was possible for them to "collapse" under extreme conditions!. There are No certainties there either!!.

 

[Geo]

So long as they point backwards when retracted thay can only cause a problem from the horrendous noise point of view.
When they drop they can only be dragged.

IMV Only forward facing legs could cause a real problem like a pole vaulting effect if they get wedged in the road surface.
Not that we have any holes in our roads do we?
But the noise alone could seriously have the drivers attension distracted from where it should be.

 

[Tony50]

Hydraulics, are always a source of problems somewhere. The favourite is Dirt in the fluids. or moisture leading to corrosion. The clearances on control valves is critical, seals deteriorate over time. It`s a bit like dealing with the old fashioned mechanical Diesel Injectors, getting the set point right can be a nightmare. As you may tell, I am Old School on this. But It would not surprise me at all to hear the issue was contamination related. Older systems should be fluid changed IMV. Especially if not used frequently. Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It is probable that the Hydraulic fluid is too. unless Synthetic?.

You a dead right a speck of dirt in Hydraulics can cause mayhem inside the system , Hydraulics can never be trusted , never get under a vehicle/ or when changing a wheel, without support , a pipe could burst the spec of grit could make any safety valve not work so please if you open the reservoir top treat it as if you were treating an open wound ie. be clinically clean, I have seen a pipe burst on hydraulics no wanting ,bang ram dropped 10 foot in a split second !!

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

As it appears cured after operating it I think Gromett has it sussed that the seal in the offending jack has reseated itself.
That jack will need a strip down and reseal as a minimum to be sure that it isn’t likely to do it again

 

[PeteH]

You a dead right a speck of dirt in Hydraulics can cause mayhem inside the system , Hydraulics can never be trusted , never get under a vehicle/ or when changing a wheel, without support , a pipe could burst the spec of grit could make any safety valve not work so please if you open the reservoir top treat it as if you were treating an open wound ie. be clinically clean, I have seen a pipe burst on hydraulics no wanting ,bang ram dropped 10 foot in a split second !!

Hence why there is always a sign on tippers warning not to go under an UN-propped body!. Drivers have been killed.

 

[cornish boy]

A seal issue in one of the jacks wouldn't normally see the jacks come down under pressure, rather it would more likely see them drop under their own weight.

Air in the system may be a factor as it is compressible unlike fluids. Air can cause strange symptoms especially when combined with an electrical fault which may have caused the pump and directional control valves to work out of sequence.

All the above is nothing more than a guess from an armchair miles away. A phone call to SAP will be the way forward, but ensure they are aware of the battery issues, as that may be a major contributing factor.

 

[Puddleduck]

Mrs Cautious here but if you replace seals on one jack it might be as well to do them on every jack "just in case". I wouldn't work on one without thoroughly checking all the others.

 

[PeteH]

So long as they point backwards when retracted thay can only cause a problem from the horrendous noise point of view.
When they drop they can only be dragged.

IMV Only forward facing legs could cause a real problem like a pole vaulting effect if they get wedged in the road surface.
Not that we have any holes in our roads do we?
But the noise alone could seriously have the drivers attension distracted from where it should be.

The beauty of the Kwikee Spring return Knee Jacks, was the fact the even if the hydraulics extended due to a lazy valve, (say) without the pump running the ram would just remain horizontal. It had to overcome the spring to extend downwards. They did away with that system and now have 2 way hydraulic legs.

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[Gromett]

A seal issue in one of the jacks wouldn't normally see the jacks come down under pressure, rather it would more likely see them drop under their own weight.

That was my thought. The seal was unseated, got some grit in it or some other defect. This allowed the jack to drop slowly under it's own weight.

I didn't think it was likely that it was the central control system as I would expect all jacks to drop if there was a fault there?

I will state again I know nothing about hydraulics other than what I have picked up from watching AvE so it is no more than a guess.

 

[jockaneezer]

Do the individual rams have limit switches on them, just wondering how the system knows when they are stowed ?

 

[ElliesBoss]

Frightening really. In nearly all industrial situations anything that uses hydraulics, e.g tippers, earthmovers, fork lifts etc have to be serviced and tested annually for this very reason. My local garage always checks water content of brake fluid and advises if it needs changing.

Hope you get it sorted and report back.

 

[cornish boy]

I didn't think it was likely that it was the central control system as I would expect all jacks to drop if there was a fault there?

To enable the leveling ability, I asume each jack has an individual hydraulic circuit so quite possible that only one jack drops.

 

[Robert Clark]

To enable the leveling ability, I asume each jack has an individual hydraulic circuit so quite possible that only one jack drops.

From memory E&P only operates 2 jacks at a time

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[cornish boy]

From memory E&P only operates 2 jacks at a time

Just looked on the website, appears that each jack is on an individual circuit but operate in pairs.

• Available for motorhomes from 3.5 to 24 tonnes (4 different systems).
• Each system comprises 4 hydraulic jacks, which are securely fastened to the
  chassis.
• Available in 3 different stroke lengths (32, 35, 38 cm).
• Jacks are powder-coated to prevent corrosion.
• Hydraulic pump, driven by powerful 12V / 24V - 800 watt motor.
• Fully automatic control unit.
• Semi-automatic operation possible (with jacks working in pairs).
• Manual operation possible in the event of power failure due to a flat battery, for
  example.
• No electrical wiring / moving parts under the motorhome, thereby reducing
  possibility of corrosion, compared to cheaper alternatives.
• Corrosion resistant.
• Each jack is operated by its own valve.
• Oil tank integrated directly into pump. No separate tank.
• Jacks run in pairs to prevent body twist.
• Inclination function: to empty the waste-water tank easily.
• Corrosion resistant footplate.
• Easy to operate by fully automatic control panel, or wireless remote control
• The level system can be fully integrated with air-suspension.
• 2-year warranty.

 

[Robert Clark]

Just looked on the website, appears that each jack is on an individual circuit but operate in pairs.

• Available for motorhomes from 3.5 to 24 tonnes (4 different systems).
• Each system comprises 4 hydraulic jacks, which are securely fastened to the
  chassis.
• Available in 3 different stroke lengths (32, 35, 38 cm).
• Jacks are powder-coated to prevent corrosion.
• Hydraulic pump, driven by powerful 12V / 24V - 800 watt motor.
• Fully automatic control unit.
• Semi-automatic operation possible (with jacks working in pairs).
• Manual operation possible in the event of power failure due to a flat battery, for
  example.
• No electrical wiring / moving parts under the motorhome, thereby reducing
  possibility of corrosion, compared to cheaper alternatives.
• Corrosion resistant.
• Each jack is operated by its own valve.
• Oil tank integrated directly into pump. No separate tank.
• Jacks run in pairs to prevent body twist.
• Inclination function: to empty the waste-water tank easily.
• Corrosion resistant footplate.
• Easy to operate by fully automatic control panel, or wireless remote control
• The level system can be fully integrated with air-suspension.
• 2-year warranty.

Some of these claims might be questionable

 

[Rudski01]

Guys
You’ve been busy while I’ve been on the road all day today, apart from the M25 a pretty good run up, and the big question, the ram stayed up, I unplugged everything this morning left for five and re plugged, I’ve got to admit we were fealing v nervous setting off and had that sick feeling, checked at the next services and still fine.
So hear we are ready for a drink and food, unfortunately work tomorrow and the hundreds of e mails to sift through, and obviously chase up what caused this issue, I’ve got a feeling this fried battery has caused some of the issues which has upset the electrics, who knows, but will need to find out and I will post up soon as I know.
Thanks again everyone I’m knacked so will sign off for now
cheers

 

[PeteH]

Guys
You’ve been busy while I’ve been on the road all day today, apart from the M25 a pretty good run up, and the big question, the ram stayed up, I unplugged everything this morning left for five and re plugged, I’ve got to admit we were fealing v nervous setting off and had that sick feeling, checked at the next services and still fine.
So hear we are ready for a drink and food, unfortunately work tomorrow and the hundreds of e mails to sift through, and obviously chase up what caused this issue, I’ve got a feeling this fried battery has caused some of the issues which has upset the electrics, who knows, but will need to find out and I will post up soon as I know.
Thanks again everyone I’m knacked so will sign off for now
cheers

Glad to hear you made it OK, I think everyone on here would be interested to hear just what the outcome is?.

 

[Gromett]

To enable the leveling ability, I asume each jack has an individual hydraulic circuit so quite possible that only one jack drops.

Agreed each jack will have it's own circuit and valves to control the hydraulic flow. However, my understanding of computer systems and electronics make me think that it is unlikely the fault is there. Mechanical things that are exposed to the environment are more likely to fail physically?

Just my thoughts. I have quite a bit of experience of electronics, electrics and computer control systems. I just suspect the mechanical in this case. For the leg to come down due to a software or electronics issue the system would have to fail in the following way (Me guessing).
1) Turn the hydraulic pump on. I suspect it is not running all the time?
2) Active a single legs valves.
3) Override the safety device that pulls all legs up when the handbrake is released.

That is three steps that would have to fail in a specific way. Or, a seal could be faulty allowing the leg to fall under it's own weight. The other thing that suggests it is not an electronics fault to me is that the leg isn't extending all the way to the ground in one hit. It appears to be falling slowly otherwise he would have had sparks and physical damage as the leg hit the deck?

Again I am only guessing here.

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