Have you used an LPG generator?

[Dafydd]

Buy a LS in Germany I know a dealer that can get you one.....

Togo Reisemobile? If Elite turn out to be unhelpful (so far they've just ignored my enquiries, that might change by the time I have the funds in place!) then I will certainly go down the importation route - I'll be base out of Wales.

 

[Wildman]

JJ will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he had 3 x 120 amp/hr batteries and at least 160W of solar to run a compressor fridge, in the UK it was often necessary to run the genny to keep the batteries charged. A diesel fired heater does use large amounts of battery power but is otherwise very efficient. A fixed underslung gas tank AND an external BBQ point to which a separate bottle could be added as an extend-a-stay would work allowing you to use local bottles and regulator when available.

 

[Judge Mental]

Togo Reisemobile? If Elite turn out to be unhelpful (so far they've just ignored my enquiries, that might change by the time I have the funds in place!) then I will certainly go down the importation route - I'll be base out of Wales.

No....they don't budge on price believe me I have tried! As nearly went for an Avante last year. They are not a LS dealer but one of the largest panel van distributers around and can get anything. Very easy to deal with...they work on tight margins unlike UK dealers!lol

They are a Cathargo dealer also and can fit anything....

 

[Dafydd]

For those interested in looking into this whole non (or limited) EHU energy question I recommend these threads:
Don Quixote's "Batteries off grid - my findings - my fix"
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/batteries-off-grid-my-findings-my-fix.91514/
and jonandshell's "Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger on a Transit"
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So far I'm still persuaded that I will benefit from an additional generator (be it Efoy, Telair lpg or a petrol genny), but only just!
For the record the factory fitted alternator on my van will be 14v/220A.

 

[Dafydd]

JJ will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he had 3 x 120 amp/hr batteries and at least 160W of solar to run a compressor fridge, in the UK it was often necessary to run the genny to keep the batteries charged. A diesel fired heater does use large amounts of battery power but is otherwise very efficient. A fixed underslung gas tank AND an external BBQ point to which a separate bottle could be added as an extend-a-stay would work allowing you to use local bottles and regulator when available.

The compressor fridge consumes 1.31 - 1.88 Ah (36 Ah or more per 24 hours) depending how hot it is. Add to that lights, computer and heater usage (0.2 to 5.6 temp. max or 1.8 to 7 temp. max depending which system - 1.1 to 1.8 Ah average), maybe hi-fi too (about 2 or less Ah) in the evenings, and less when I'm in the van during the day. A high usage (I imagine not a constant situation) would be 9Ah for a few hours in the evenings and much less in the day. When the van is empty it's just the fridge and residual system/alarm drain. The solar won't be enough except on the sunniest days which is why I'm delving into this dark thornbush of generators and the general mindmelt that is involved!

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[mjltigger]

Don Quixote's "Batteries off grid - my findings - my fix"
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/batteries-off-grid-my-findings-my-fix.91514/

That exact post was what got me into fun.. haven't done what he said yet though cos I still don't understand most of it.. but I have fitted a split charge relay and replaced buggy batteries and all seems to be working ok for me at the moment.

 

[Don Quixote]

The compressor fridge consumes 1.31 - 1.88 Ah depending how hot it is. Add to that lights, computer and heater usage (0.2 to 5.6 temp. max or 1.8 to 7 temp. max depending which system - 1.1 to 1.8 average), maybe hi-fi too (about 2 or less Ah) in the evenings, and less when I'm in the van during the day. A high usage (I imagine not a constant situation) would be 9Ah.

I would think more like 10 or 12 amps per day. Charging mobile, using loo, lights, Tv maybe?, heater will draw large amps to start up and run down. Remember a 110amp battery will only give you 55 amps before it reaches 50% discharge and starts to die....... 55 amps at 10 apms per hour give you 5 1/2 hours before they start to get damaged. Then next day your 100watt solar panel ( if you have one ) return in the UK about 2 amps per hour for 8 hours ( if your lucky = 16 amps back!!!! not a chance of recharging ( remember solar will only top up batteries NOT charge ) 2 x 110 amps batteries is a better option. Now you see why a B2B has to be the option. Turn on engine - run for 20 / 30 minutes ( tick over s fine ) and batteries are FULLY charged. Simples.........

 

[Judge Mental]

This was my thinking also, fit a larger alternator and run engine to charge. Until that is, I have been told running engine on tick over harmful?

 

[Dafydd]

@Don Quixote - I'm half wondering if I can do without an additional generator (the thread subject) altogether if I think of using the engine as a generator (the alternator-battery charger looks interesting). My brain always wants to over-engineer!

 

[Dafydd]

fit a larger alternator and run engine to charge. Until that is, I have been told running engine on tick over harmful?

The options list offers a "14v 220A reinforced alternator".

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[Judge Mental]

The options list offers a "14v 220A reinforced alternator".

Not the alternator, the engine, as running on tick over not good, that's what I understood from previous dicussions. Someone more knowledgable will be along soon to clarify

Visited the van Goug museum October half term.....

 

[Dafydd]

Problems with running the engine...?? This really is becoming a minefield!

Vincent says: "well that's great, my pictures are now worth millions! Some of them I swapped for a meal...". I love the olive tree paintings on show in A'dam ... he's a man I can identify with but I stay off the absenthe!! At current values his creative output is worth over a billion, he never saw any of it, zilch. C'est la vie.

 

[Dafydd]

I'm still interested to hear from anyone who has or has used an lpg generator.... the cost fitted is £3000 - a lot less than an Efoy.
But perhaps the consensus is "use your engine instead and you need no generator at all"...?

 

[Judge Mental]

Vincent, thought I had died and gone to heaven when we found all the good stuff on 3rd floor...nothing quite like standing with your nose a foot away from paintings..absolutely stunning. look like they were painted yesterday..so fresh

Yep this motorhome stuff very tricky!

what about a diesel genny...dont know how practical they are but fuel everywhere

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or something along these lines LPG & Petrol

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until you actually get on the road you dont know what your needs will be... ..no need to spend a fortune on "what if's". Suck it and see my philosophy

 

[Dafydd]

no need to spend a fortune on "what if's". Suck it and see

That is advice I'm going to take.
I'll buy the solar (in honour of my dad who helped invent pv, if for no other reason) and the reinforced alternator from the options, ignore the Efoy and then make assessment from experience and probably pass some sheckels Mr Charles Sterling's way for the alternator-to-battery charger (and a fitter, I don't do diy beyond putting up a shelf). Then I'll see about an additional underslung lpg tank (whilst keeping the cannisters) as well as an additional battery.
If running the engine for an hour or so a day can replace several grand's worth of generator then my worst case scenario for being off grid would be carrying some extra diesel in a jerrycan.
Thanks

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[Judge Mental]

trouble is I don't listen to my own advice and always over spec vans..then regret it when it comes to selling. Possl van I am interested in at the moment is in stock and fitted with larger alternator...I will watch this thread with interest

 

[Don Quixote]

I'm still interested to hear from anyone who has or has used an lpg generator.... the cost fitted is £3000 - a lot less than an Efoy.
But perhaps the consensus is "use your engine instead and you need no generator at all"...?

Thats 3000 quid you could spend on 2 x batteries, 1 x B2B, 1 x solar panel and still have 2000+ quid left......... If there was a problem with running on tick over why is there not more "white van man" vehicles off the road. I used to watch the network rail vans running all night on tick over years ago to keep the lads warm......... enough said.

 

[JJ]

Of course every one must choose their own way of doing things...

but no one will ever convince me that running a 2.9 litre, 5 cylinder, diesel engine on tickover to put a few amps into a battery bank is a sensible, long term solution to running the 12 volt systems in a motorhome.

In my experience the very best way of living long term in a van is to travel with it.

Keeping moving solves so many problems both practically and politically.

Being stationary for long periods gets close to house/flat dwelling!

I have settled on a combination of solar panels (my Iveco has four of them, 80/90 watts each), a small petrol generator and moving on every few days.

Solar panels are like cold beers in the fridge... you can never have too many of them.

As an aside... I looked at those gas driven 12 volt, 20 amp, lpg powered generators and was shocked to find how short their life expectancy was...

JJ

 

[Don Quixote]

JJ, if members read my post on the subject they will see that I have investigated all options and fitted what I believe is best for my MH, each owner will have their own idea. I also agree fully with you about static running an engine to charge a battery. As I move every few days I have no need to static run, however as I stated there is no reason not to if needed.

You state: "Solar panels are like cold beers in the fridge... you can never have too many of them." I fully agree both panels and beers.............................

 

[JeanLuc]

Like JJ, I subscribe to the school that believes a large diesel engine is not an ideal power source for a small generator (alternator). Here is a fairly detailed article on the subject of cylinder bore glazing - a bigger problem for yachts than motorhomes generally. It seems that long-term low-load idling is particularly bad for a new engine.
.

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[Don Quixote]

Like JJ, I subscribe to the school that believes a large diesel engine is not an ideal power source for a small generator (alternator). Here is a fairly detailed article on the subject of cylinder bore glazing - a bigger problem for yachts than motorhomes generally. It seems that long-term low-load idling is particularly bad for a new engine.
.

I don't doubt it, however many new engine vehicles are run static for hours on end without problem, I have watch this whilst working for Network Rail years ago and it still happens today. I have parked up and listened to many MH owners running their engines for 30 minutes plus. As I have stated above "if needs be then why not", but running the engine under load is better I fully agree. Taxis idle for hours on cold nights and seem to run forever. HGV's idle for hours and run forever, buses idle for hours and still work

 

[Peter A Forbes]

The Telair generator being considered is designed to recharge batteries - not provide 230V AC power.

Did I say differently in my post?

Peter

 

[Jimbost]

If you are limited on space to mount an additional Solar panel, would it be worth considering an additional portable/folding panel setup. Provided the regulator fitted would be capable of handling the additional amperage then a point for a parallel connection could be fitted. Using an external bbq point for a local bottle/regulator would be logical to me as a backup. Increasing the battery bank is a must as when you run a generator to charge one battery why not two? B2B charger will ensure maximum efficiency from your charging system.

Just some thoughts as I read through the posts.

 

[eddie]

Lol the Ebb and flow of expert opinion!

"If" your thinking about getting a secondary alternator, simply fit a 220 VAC alternator. Much more effiecent.

If you only have room for one solar panel, fit something like the Alden Phenix (sic) it has the same footprint as a 100w panel, but as it automatically tracks the sun on rotation and angle. We have one fitted on our show exhibition unit, and my Son James has one fitted on his Motorhome. Alden claim that the Phenix is on average five times more efficient than a conventional flat panel, and we would agree with those claims. This is obviously as the panel is perpendicular to the sun most of the day.

Extra batteries, always sensible is there is space and pay
load permits.

Battery to Battery chargers! Most (nearly all) Motorhomes leave the factory with inadequate charging systems. However this is not a problem for the majority of people. If you leave your van plugged into the mains outside your house, most of the time and you drive 30 miles to stay in the caravan club site, where you plug into the mains this will not be a problem.

It is when you wish to be more adventurous that you will find e shortcomings of a "typical" split charge system. All Motorhomes are based on commercial vehicle chassis. designed for "Bob the Builder" or "Fred the Florist" to stop start his was round town Monday through to Friday.

One battery, connected to an adjacent alternator via a very heavy duty cable. The Motorhome converters then come along and add in a couple of leisure batteries, and install them with little or no thought as to the electrical efficiency, and worse still, hook them up with a wire no thicker than your boot laces metres away from where they should be.

Add to that, that even in sophisticated "looking" electronic boxes, it is a normal automotive relay (costing about a pound) that simply closes when the engine is running, putting the engine and the leisure batteries in parrallel. I'm not going to start the argument about German manufacturers putting GEL leisure batteries in parrallel with chassis lead acid batteries with a mean charging voltage of circa 14.8vdc

So a B2B, when installed correctly, has the chassis battery connected with the correct gauge cable to the B2B, as are the leisure battery (s)
(Trade tip here: ensure that you uprate the negative connection of the leisure battery(s) to the chassis with a cable equal or bigger than the cable you use to connect the positive post to the ?B2B)

In simple terms when the engine is running, the B2B, tricks the alternator into thinking that the engine battery state of charge is lower than it actually is. The alternator ups its game to resolve the situation and the B2B diverts the extra output from the alternator straight to the leisure battery.

Most leisure batteries when we test them are only about 80% charged when driving. No imagine, given that we should only discharge the leisure batteries about to about 50% of the rated capacity, just imagine what the effect would be of arriving, with batteries that are genuinely 100% charged, rather than 80%

The LPG generators I personally have always been sceptical of, yet to be fair , I never met anyone that owned one that was unhappy with it. I tend think that personally I would opt for a built in diesel generator which resolves the availability of fuel issue, and when used in conjunction with a decent charger (I use a 100amp multistage charger) would put a significant amount of charge back into the batteries in a realtively short period of generator running time. I accept that the LPG Generators are quieter, but it would have to be running a long time to produce the same amount of charge.

 

[Ivory55]

How large would the generator need to be to run a 100amp charger like that ? Cheers

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[Judge Mental]

a small light back up genny, Kippor do balanced sine wave ones under £500

The thing about using motor to charge is: yes we all have been stuck in jams for hours on tick over ( gothard tunnel anyone?) but engine up to temperature at these times? Standing in a field for 3 or 4 days and then starting engine and letting it tick over, with it not getting up to temp, oil circulating properly is a completely diffrent scenario?

While the nova a lovely van I just question its suitability for full time living, doudt it has enough payload either.......with a 60K plus price there is a lot of alternatives out there, I would be looking for a 4 ton plus chassis

 

[eddie]

Any of the Dometic built in diesel generators will easily handle it. It needs about 6amp 220VAC The unit is a inverter charger, and is fully adjustable anyway so you can select any charge rate from 30 amps to 100 amps if the supply is limited.

As it is an inverter/charger the great thing I find is the Power Support Function (PSF) This in effect means that if the available supply from a hook up for example, is insufficient for my demands, (my wifes hair dryer normally lol) instead of blowing the trip on the hook up, the charger stops being a charger, and instantly switches to "invert" mode. So have we have a 10 amp limit on the hook up, and we suddenly try to draw 16 amps the inverter charger will use the 10 available and "invert" the missing 6 amps to allowing uninterrupted use. When the hair dryer is turned off, the inverter/charger reverts back to charging and tops the batteries back up. This does mean that we don't often find oursleves wandering around looking for a warden with a key to reset our hook up.

Also the unit can be left on when on hook up and if the mains supply fails, it will kick straight in, fast enough in fact that if your recording something on Sky plus, it doesn't affect the settings or the recording. Consequently we have installed many of these units for people that need a good reliable electricl supply for the use with medical equipment

 

[Ivory55]

What size generator is needed to say 10amp fast charger. Ie 2kw kippor would run x rated fast charger. Sorry if it seems an obvious answer, but everything is easy if it's your job. Cheers

 

[Dafydd]

Thanks for all the informative replies. Sorry in advance for this very long comment but it's such a complicated (to me) subject. To say that I appreciate the advice and comments here is an understatement!

As any non-standard requirements are specific to both the vehicle and the planned usage I should spell out why I'm asking about a back-up energy source in the first place. I've asked about the LPG generator here because I just read about it and for good or bad it's one of the possible options.

Besides short duration off-site camping (1, 2 0r 3 days) with driving in between I also have some projects planned that involve a week or so without EHU and including in northern winter where I will want heating on permanently, at a low setting, when out for the day (it's to do with bird watching and conservation if you're wondering...). Most trips I'll be travelling solo. I don't need (or want) sat-tv or air-con.

Where possible I'd like to select appropriate options offered by the constructors. What I want to avoid is the waste of choosing what will turn out to be inappropriate options that later need to be upgraded or replaced. The La Strada is a Merc Sprinter, semi-integrated, winterised, 3.88t gvw (by option), 6.4 metre unit with a garage.
They offer an uprated battery - an AGM 110Ah. They don't offer 2 leisure batteries but from the answers above I'm persuaded that I will need 2 batteries and that a way can be found to make 2 batteries fit by an aftersales fitter (I'm not interested in gas or electrical DIY).
They offer a reinforced alternator quoted as being "14v, 220A".
They offer one 100w solar panel (and there doesn't appear to be space to fit 2).
They offer an Efoy methanol generator (the biggest delivers up to 8.8A at a very high cost).
The offer a gas bbq point.
They offer a compressor fridge or a 3-way.
So I guess I'll order the 110Ah battery, the bigger alternator and the extra gas point. Everything else is up in the air.

The first 6 months I will spend in the UK, besides a trip to Germany, learning how to use the van and getting fitted with what aftersales are appropriate. I'll use sites and CLs, just normal usage when not parked outside my base in Wales.
The only definite aftersales things I've decided on so far is to have a tracker and deadlocks fitted and probably an alarm.
Then it's the energy systems and that's why I'm seeking advice here.
I want a solar panel but I could ignore the factory option altogether and have an integrated (bespoke) system fitted aftersales along with the appropriate control unit(s), bigger battery bank, B2B or A2B charger, adequate gauge wiring etc.

Whilst I am an ignoramus on these technicalities it strikes me as better (and less wasteful) to have an integrated system installed in one go (and by one fitter) than to have an existing inadequate set-up replaced/modified and added to here and there.

If you are limited on space to mount an additional Solar panel, would it be worth considering an additional portable/folding panel setup. Provided the regulator fitted would be capable of handling the additional amperage then a point for a parallel connection could be fitted.

This looks like a good idea to me. I could have a plug-in port (and the appropriate controller) fitted at no great cost to allow me this option. I was looking at portable (and orientable) panels a while ago.

fit a 220 VAC alternator.

fit something like the Alden Phenix (sic) it has the same footprint as a 100w panel, but as it automatically tracks the sun on rotation and angle.

Extra batteries

Battery to Battery chargers!

The LPG generators I personally have always been sceptical of, yet to be fair , I never met anyone that owned one that was unhappy with it. I tend think that personally I would opt for a built in diesel generator which resolves the availability of fuel issue, and when used in conjunction with a decent charger (I use a 100amp multistage charger) would put a significant amount of charge back into the batteries in a realtively short period of generator running time. I accept that the LPG Generators are quieter, but it would have to be running a long time to produce the same amount of charge.

Thanks Eddie. When I've taken delivery of my van (next Summer/Autumn) I imagine that I'll be in touch!!

Besides reading about battery-to-battery chargers (and watching Sterling's very useful vids on youtube) there is also a Sterling alternator-to-battery charger. Any thoughts?

Standing in a field for 3 or 4 days and then starting engine and letting it tick over, with it not getting up to temp, oil circulating properly is a completely diffrent scenario?

While the nova a lovely van I just question its suitability for full time living, doudt it has enough payload either.......with a 60K plus price there is a lot of alternatives out there, I would be looking for a 4 ton plus chassis

I'm inclined towards a back up generator of some kind even with the b2b or a2b and using the engine. As to the choice of van: as I've been waiting for my Irish negative equity to recover I have had a lot of time to consider this. It all involves compromises in a bunch of different directions relative to my planned usage and I keep coming back to the Nova. Whilst a bigger van would make living easier and more comfortable a smaller unit also has its advantages. I think the 3.88t gvw is doable for me, just the axle limits to consider with battery banks etc ...

Any of the Dometic built in diesel generators will easily handle it. It needs about 6amp 220VAC The unit is a inverter charger, and is fully adjustable anyway so you can select any charge rate from 30 amps to 100 amps if the supply is limited.

I'll have a read up on the Dometic diesel units, thanks. Are these suitable for a smaller motorhome?
Thoughts on the Sterling alternator-to-battery unit?

 

[Judge Mental]

If you buy in Germany ancillary equipment tends to be expensive, lpg and solar better value in UK

Was reading a long thread on here yesterday about the perceived quality of MB, I sugest you have a look! Merc are like hymer, in Germany there status not that high, but here due to clever marketing and the poor quality of UK alternatives, they are looked at as being a quality product. In Germany they come out about tenth in user surveys.
Nova a strange beast...kind of a coachbuilt body married to a panel van, not sure how durable it would be off the beaten track, same money could get a 4x4 with full air suspension. Personaly with what I percieve as your intended usage I would look around....

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