Greater Manchester Clean Air Zone charges and Motorhomes

[SpeedyDux]

And as has been proved MANY times before, adding road capacity works for a short period, sometimes only weeks, until supressed demand is unlocked. Then the congestion would return. And it increases demand on the roads around it, making overall congestion worse.

The other trend that creates the extra congestion is the desire for more space that is behind the move out of cities into market towns and villages.

Every increase in road capacity will be seen as an opportunity to live somewhere nicer, further away from the workplace.

Adding to that is the mass housebuilding programme. On top of the thousands of new dwellings already completed or being built round my town, there is a new Planning application for another 330 homes on Green Belt land which I am certain will get approval. The Planners are proposing more schools, GP surgeries (where are the additional GPs coming from - Mars?) but NO additional road capacity. Only more traffic lights to let these extra vehicles join major roads without long queues.

The A4 Saltford Bypass is never going to happen neither is there going to be a new link road to the M4 anytime soon, because the land that was earmarked for it has been built on, including a Science Park as well as the Lyde Green estate. Despite the vestigial slip roads for the intended junction, that can be seen when you drive along the M4.

Gridlock is inevitable around Bristol and Bath. Already I avoid driving at peak times. Maybe that's behind the plan to phase out ICE vehicles, in order to get millions of low income marginal motorists off the roads altogether. Restrict their personal freedom. Also turning the hard shoulder into all lane running on Smart Motorways. Because the cost of new roads and widening motorways is so high and the timescale is too long (in the UK anyway). I suppose we were lucky that the M25 was built in the 1980s before the effective moratorium on new motorway building.

Back on topic - the war on bad vehicle emissions was won after leaded petrol was phased out and vehicles had to meet tighter emission standards. I remember that car Ad boasting that the air coming out of the exhaust was cleaner than the air going into the engine. Euro 6 means much lower NOX and particulates. CAZs and LEZs deliver only marginal benefits. So they keep moving the goalposts.

 

[PaulC70]

Well, I've replied to the consultation anyway, hope everyone else has.

 

[gus-lopez]

in order to get millions of low income marginal motorists off the roads altogether.

problem is they won't be working either as they will not be able to get there?

 

[SpeedyDux]

problem is they won't be working either as they will not be able to get there?

The elites have anticipated that. The Great Reset includes a Universal Basic Income.

 

[Landy Andy]

What will the new tax be spent on?

It will be wasted and lost like most of the money that is given for this “environmental” BS.

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[Platelet]

I think this Clean Air Zone is looking to charge everything non-compliant except cars and motorbikes? Taxis, vans, etc. will all be charged if they don't meet the emissions standards. So it does seem odd that motorhomes would be excluded. Counter argument is... do they make enough difference to bother with? And as with other CAZs, if your van is Euro6, you wouldn't be charged either.

The odd thing about this Clean Air Zone is it talks about reducing NO2. Other CAZs have the aim of reducing particulates. Nitrogen Oxides are produced by engines under sustained load, which is normally on high speed roads. Urban streets don't produce a lot of NOxes.


Depends on how often you move the van. It still might be cheaper to pay the charge than paying someone else for storage and also take an insurance bump. Plus the inconvenience.


It also says that if your vehicle has been adapted for use by a disabled user, you'd be able to apply for an exception. Their argument is motorhomes are large polluting vehicles. If a vehicle hasn't been specifically adapted, I think you'd face an uphill battle that a disability should mean that you can effectively drive anything you like when there are compliant options that would support your needs.

Unfortunately motorbikes will be charged in London ULEZ from October this year. It won’t be long before Manchester does the same?

 

[Guigsy]

Unfortunately motorbikes will be charged in London ULEZ from October this year. It won’t be long before Manchester does the same?

Manchester aren't even planning to charge cars at the moment.

 

[vzac]

It will be wasted and lost like most of the money that is given for this “environmental” BS.

I suppose you also think the earth is flat and Donald Trump, has caused all the glaciers to melt. Read the science, this planet will survive, but humans might ( will) struggle if we do not care for the environment, so comments like this are disappointing, and naive.

 

[Landy Andy]

I suppose you also think the earth is flat and Donald Trump, has caused all the glaciers to melt. Read the science, this planet will survive, but humans might ( will) struggle if we do not care for the environment, so comments like this are disappointing, and naive.

The earth has always been heating up. The ice age was here and it now isn’t, and that isn’t because I use deodorant. Me giving my money to someone to waste certainly won’t help it.

We must understand that humans will only be around for a limited period of time.

But if you are happy to hand over money and think that stops global warming, crack on and enjoy yourself.

 

[vzac]

The earth, actually goes in cycles of warming and cooling, and yes we are still coming out of an ice age, BUT it is waming faster than the normal cycles. Also when the dinosaurs were walking the plant, yes millions of yrs ago, we humans would not survive because the air of that time would not sustain large mammals, and it was a warm planet. Yes also the planet long term will not support humans, but theres no point in living humans to spoil it for the future generations to find ways to survive. It seems a small part of today's population are self centered, arrogant and selfish and do not give a dam about our children's wellbeing. P.s. I do not agree with how the government are tackling the vehicle situation either.

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[Guigsy]

The earth has always been heating up. The ice age was here and it now isn’t, and that isn’t because I use deodorant. Me giving my money to someone to waste certainly won’t help it.

We must understand that humans will only be around for a limited period of time.

But if you are happy to hand over money and think that stops global warming, crack on and enjoy yourself.

CO2 has increased by nearly 50% in the past couple of hundred years. It has changed by that much before, but only over a period of tens of thousands of years. And the increase in CO2 roughly tallies with the volume of CO2 we've release from burning fossil fuels. The increase in carbon in the atmosphere has been caused by humans.

When the CO2 levels were as high as they are now, there were significantly different climate patterns. But those changes happened over very long periods of time. Again, these are happening incredibly quickly. There isn't time for living things to adapt.

We also have scientifically proven mechanisms that predict a massive increase in CO2 will cause climate change. The change is already happening, and it's happening fast enough that the models we were using over a decade ago are being validated.

Anyone now that things that climate change isn't caused by humans and doesn't think it's going to cause major negative changes to both humans and most living things is just conveniently ignoring facts.

 

[Tonks]

If it was about money, then they'd have charged the cars too. Birmingham have.

£20 is only 100 miles of fuel. Campsites cost at least £20 per night. If you are taking the motorhome out for a few days, it's hardly a massive addition to the expense.

Except that before long you’ll have to pay £20 to get off your drive, then £10 to pass through any other CAZ on your journey and so the costs of trips will rise abruptly. I volunteer at a museum in Lincolnshire. I’m just waiting for the ‘Borough’ in which I live to become a CAZ even though I live at the edge of the borough in a semi-rural location, not in the main conurbation and I pass through at least two large towns en route which are difficult to detour round. If each of those introduce CAZs my trip will likely cost at least £30 EACH WAY in CAZ charges, on top of the £70+ fuel bill so effectively doubling the travel cost… upgrading the van to euro6 will cost a significant sum, and I’m not convinced that the current exemptions will remain for long. In a few years euro6 vans will doubtless be charged too.

 

[Landy Andy]

CO2 has increased by nearly 50% in the past couple of hundred years. It has changed by that much before, but only over a period of tens of thousands of years. And the increase in CO2 roughly tallies with the volume of CO2 we've release from burning fossil fuels. The increase in carbon in the atmosphere has been caused by humans.

When the CO2 levels were as high as they are now, there were significantly different climate patterns. But those changes happened over very long periods of time. Again, these are happening incredibly quickly. There isn't time for living things to adapt.

We also have scientifically proven mechanisms that predict a massive increase in CO2 will cause climate change. The change is already happening, and it's happening fast enough that the models we were using over a decade ago are being validated.

Anyone now that things that climate change isn't caused by humans and doesn't think it's going to cause major negative changes to both humans and most living things is just conveniently ignoring facts.

I’m not saying it’s not caused by humans though am I?

I’m saying two main things.
1. The earth has always been warming up
2. Me giving my money to some scheme doesn’t stop it happening.

If people are desperate to stop global warming, stop breeding, stop buy shite from China, and stop believing what those who have things to sell tell you.

 

[Guigsy]

Except that before long you’ll have to pay £20 to get off your drive, then £10 to pass through any other CAZ on your journey and so the costs of trips will rise abruptly. I volunteer at a museum in Lincolnshire. I’m just waiting for the ‘Borough’ in which I live to become a CAZ even though I live at the edge of the borough in a semi-rural location, not in the main conurbation and I pass through at least two large towns en route which are difficult to detour round. If each of those introduce CAZs my trip will likely cost at least £30 EACH WAY in CAZ charges, on top of the £70+ fuel bill so effectively doubling the travel cost… upgrading the van to euro6 will cost a significant sum, and I’m not convinced that the current exemptions will remain for long. In a few years euro6 vans will doubtless be charged too.

I live inside the Birmingham CAZ. I've sold my car. I'm using a push bike and getting stuff delivered. And they money saved is going towards paying for the Euro 6 motorhome that replaced the Euro 4 van I had before.

Sorry to state the obvious, but if you're using an older vehicle to commute through an area with high air pollution, then you're probably contributing to air pollution they want to reduce. If the CAZ charges prevent you from making the trip in your vehicle, then... that was kinda the point.

 

[Landy Andy]

So if you can afford it, you can do what you want. Sounds about right.

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[Guigsy]

So if you can afford it, you can do what you want. Sounds about right.

Welcome to capitalism.

 

[Landy Andy]

Exactly. Nothing to do with the planet.

 

[vzac]

You really have no idea what you are talking about mate.

 

[Mrs Drago35uk]

We will have to pay £10 to travel 1 mile to the M62 where we live and the same back home again. I feel for all the campsites in the area as people will avoid them now.

 

[PR]

Hence my point in my previous post:

I am registered disabled and for the last 2 years my MH has only moved to go for MOT it is taxed as it is parked on the road, no refunds etc
L do not have funds to update and also have only used it maybe 3 times in 3 years for weekend trips to classic vehicle rallies and the Government think it is OK to penalize me £10 a day. WHAT KIND OF A PARTY DO THEY THINK THIS IS ? I am NOT amused .
PR

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[SpeedyDux]

CO2 has increased by nearly 50% in the past couple of hundred years. It has changed by that much before, but only over a period of tens of thousands of years. And the increase in CO2 roughly tallies with the volume of CO2 we've release from burning fossil fuels. The increase in carbon in the atmosphere has been caused by humans.

When the CO2 levels were as high as they are now, there were significantly different climate patterns. But those changes happened over very long periods of time. Again, these are happening incredibly quickly. There isn't time for living things to adapt.

We also have scientifically proven mechanisms that predict a massive increase in CO2 will cause climate change. The change is already happening, and it's happening fast enough that the models we were using over a decade ago are being validated.

Anyone now that things that climate change isn't caused by humans and doesn't think it's going to cause major negative changes to both humans and most living things is just conveniently ignoring facts.

Might I recommend the excellent book by the co-founder of Greenpeace, Patrick Moore. He is an independent scientist and environmental activist.

 

[GJH]

I am registered disabled and for the last 2 years my MH has only moved to go for MOT it is taxed as it is parked on the road, no refunds etc
L do not have funds to update and also have only used it maybe 3 times in 3 years for weekend trips to classic vehicle rallies and the Government think it is OK to penalize me £10 a day. WHAT KIND OF A PARTY DO THEY THINK THIS IS ? I am NOT amused .
PR

Read the whole thread - and all the surrounding information - and you will find out what kind of party it is. You might find that doing a bit of reading before submitting your first post on a forum is a good idea.
Had you done so you would have seen post #30 :

They could make existing residents, who had been paying Council Tax before the scheme, exempt for say two journeys a year. Pollution would be minimal. The technology must be there to facilitate this. I suggest that should be included in submissions in the consultation.

That point was made by several people, including me, to both Livingstone and Johnson prior to the LEZ being introduced.

By the way, no need to shout

 

[599]

someone's got out of the bed the wrong side this morning . that's what we would say when we live in ashton-under-lyne

 

[Helen Ariel]

I am registered disabled and for the last 2 years my MH has only moved to go for MOT it is taxed as it is parked on the road, no refunds etc
L do not have funds to update and also have only used it maybe 3 times in 3 years for weekend trips to classic vehicle rallies and the Government think it is OK to penalize me £10 a day. WHAT KIND OF A PARTY DO THEY THINK THIS IS ? I am NOT amused .
PR

Sounds like you'd be better off hiring a vehicle if you only use it once a year. You'll save money, get to stay in a modern motorhome and more space on the road for people to park when visiting you. Win win.

 

[patricia the newbie]

But you can only register the vehicle as adapted if you are in receipt of certain benefits (I'm not - it's a really complicated application and also frustrating). Adapting a compliant vehicle isn't an option at the moment - many (possibly the majority) of disabled people earn a lot less than able bodied so tend to run older vehicles unless they qualify for mobility allowance - again I don't as my disability is hidden. I also need to get my Mum and Dad (Dad uses a wheelchair) in and out of a vehicle - the wheelchair adaptation was the reason we went for the car we did. Only one vehicle per person can be registered as adapted so although if my Dad qualified to have a vehicle registered as adapted (which he doesn't as he is "not disabled enough") the family would have to decide which vehicle should be re-registered with him as the keeper and also registered as disability adapted. Remember Dad is 90 and has complex dementia so I'm not even sure if he could. legally, be a registered keeper.

I think I have a case that he is being discriminated against due to his age and his disability.

And as things progress and electric becomes a requirement ...... electric vehicles (at the moment) can not be adapted for wheelchair ramps and lifts - plus the charging infrastructure is not wheelchair friendly ..... the chargers are too high, have obstructions round them (to protect them but the protection means they are not wheelchaor accessible) and the charging points are often a long wheel along a road from a dropped kerb.

Do what I did to get the council to back down threaten to put him into care a social worker told me this , she said they see ££££ and sure enough I was given a disabled driving status badge and my Dad got enhanced payments to use for extra carer facilities
The last thing they want is to shell out 1000s of pounds . Definitely appeal, appeal appeal and get your or his MP involved

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