Greater Manchester Clean Air Zone charges and Motorhomes

[nicholsong]

Hence my point in my previous post:

I think the proposed legislation should be examined in detail to see exactly what Vehicle Categories are included because both cars and MHs are Category M1, albeit that MHs are M1 (Special Purpose) but if the legislation does not include M1 then it would not include M1 (Special Purpose) unless specified.

Of course part of the problem here is that a lot of these schemes rely on information from DVLA, which any reader of MH forums knows to be the square root of useless in a lot of cases. My V5c does not specify Vehicle Category, therefore I cannot understand how I could be fined based on DVLA information for breaching a rule which only applies to certain vehicle categories.

It is about time that the schemes were taken to court to challenge these points. Maybe a joint action is needed.

Geoff

 

[GJH]

I think the proposed legislation should be examined in detail to see exactly what Vehicle Categories are included because both cars and MHs are Category M1, albeit that MHs are M1 (Special Purpose) but if the legislation does not include M1 then it would not include M1 (Special Purpose) unless specified.

Of course part of the problem here is that a lot of these schemes rely on information from DVLA, which any reader of MH forums knows to be the square root of useless in a lot of cases. My V5c does not specify Vehicle Category, therefore I cannot understand how I could be fined based on DVLA information for breaching a rule which only applies to certain vehicle categories.

It is about time that the schemes were taken to court to challenge these points. Maybe a joint action is needed.

Geoff

The consultation is specifically aimed at Motor Caravans, so that excludes cars, and caters for blank vehicle category on page 11:
"A vehicle’s categorisation can be found in the vehicle’s V5C document (logbook) and is determined by the manufacturers’ homologation process. There are four possible categorisations on the V5C document for a motorhome/campervan:• M1 or M1 Special Purpose (SP)• N1• N2• In some cases the field on the V5C document may be blank."

 

[Potty]

We moved from Bury because of the air pollution that seriously affected OH’s asthma. Our children and grandchildren still live in the area, most of them within walking distance of Burrs CMHC site. It will now cost us £10 a day to visit them. The main cause of pollution in the area is MW traffic and traffic jams and charging isn’t going to change that.

 

[Guigsy]

We moved from Bury because of the air pollution that seriously affected OH’s asthma. Our children and grandchildren still live in the area, most of them within walking distance of Burrs CMHC site. It will now cost us £10 a day to visit them. The main cause of pollution in the area is MW traffic and traffic jams and charging isn’t going to change that.

I live in the centre of Birmingham, inside the CAZ. I've got a cheap air quality sensor cable tied to a bit of railing outside my house. I've been keeping readings for a couple of years now. The air quality does appear to have improved. There are still peaks of bad particulates and NOx, but it's not continuously 'high' like it was before.

 

[Puddleduck]

It also says that if your vehicle has been adapted for use by a disabled user, you'd be able to apply for an exception. Their argument is motorhomes are large polluting vehicles. If a vehicle hasn't been specifically adapted, I think you'd face an uphill battle that a disability should mean that you can effectively drive anything you like when there are compliant options that would support your needs.

But you can only register the vehicle as adapted if you are in receipt of certain benefits (I'm not - it's a really complicated application and also frustrating). Adapting a compliant vehicle isn't an option at the moment - many (possibly the majority) of disabled people earn a lot less than able bodied so tend to run older vehicles unless they qualify for mobility allowance - again I don't as my disability is hidden. I also need to get my Mum and Dad (Dad uses a wheelchair) in and out of a vehicle - the wheelchair adaptation was the reason we went for the car we did. Only one vehicle per person can be registered as adapted so although if my Dad qualified to have a vehicle registered as adapted (which he doesn't as he is "not disabled enough") the family would have to decide which vehicle should be re-registered with him as the keeper and also registered as disability adapted. Remember Dad is 90 and has complex dementia so I'm not even sure if he could. legally, be a registered keeper.

I think I have a case that he is being discriminated against due to his age and his disability.

And as things progress and electric becomes a requirement ...... electric vehicles (at the moment) can not be adapted for wheelchair ramps and lifts - plus the charging infrastructure is not wheelchair friendly ..... the chargers are too high, have obstructions round them (to protect them but the protection means they are not wheelchaor accessible) and the charging points are often a long wheel along a road from a dropped kerb.

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[Puddleduck]

We moved from Bury because of the air pollution that seriously affected OH’s asthma. Our children and grandchildren still live in the area, most of them within walking distance of Burrs CMHC site. It will now cost us £10 a day to visit them. The main cause of pollution in the area is MW traffic and traffic jams and charging isn’t going to change that.

Same here for Burrs CMHC site. We'll have to consider going elsewhere which might not affect local businesses that much if it's just us, but if enough people decide to take their custom elsewhere it will hit the area's commerce.

 

[Brains]

So i now have to buy a new work van and a Motorhome. Or pay thousands of pounds a year for what. I live around Greater Manchester it is the usual tax an easy option.

Welcome to the LEZ club.
(Does that make you a LEZbian ?)

I've had to sell a car and van, both perfectly good, and I would have kept them for another 5+ years.
I now have a new (to me) car and van, both are the newest vehicles I've ever owned in 45 years of motoring.

I have now spent more on vehicles in the last 12 months than I have in the last 45 years, not just the purchase price of 20+ vehicles but also 45 years of running costs, fuel, repairs, insurance all combined !

 

[SpeedyDux]

I think the proposed legislation should be examined in detail to see exactly what Vehicle Categories are included because both cars and MHs are Category M1, albeit that MHs are M1 (Special Purpose) but if the legislation does not include M1 then it would not include M1 (Special Purpose) unless specified.

Of course part of the problem here is that a lot of these schemes rely on information from DVLA, which any reader of MH forums knows to be the square root of useless in a lot of cases. My V5c does not specify Vehicle Category, therefore I cannot understand how I could be fined based on DVLA information for breaching a rule which only applies to certain vehicle categories.

It is about time that the schemes were taken to court to challenge these points. Maybe a joint action is needed.

Geoff

The French Associations have been very active. Bans by local authorities aimed specifically at camping-cars get challenged and struck down as discriminatory by their Courts. We need a UK MH Association that is equally robust. We can't expect the Clubs to stand up for their membership.

If it was about money, then they'd have charged the cars too. Birmingham have.

Bath City Council (LibDum controlled) changed its mind and decided that private cars would be exempt.

 

[Guigsy]

The system they are building to figure out who they are going to charge is based on number plate cameras. It then looks the number plate up in a database to work out the type of vehicle and whether it's compliant. So that's the REASON they aren't bothering with caravans, their system can't tell whether the vehicle is towing.

Whether that is fair is an issue worth raising.

 

[nicholsong]

The French Associations have been very active. Bans by local authorities aimed specifically at camping-cars get challenged and struck down as discriminatory by their Courts. We need a UK MH Association that is equally robust. We can't expect the Clubs to stand up for their membership.

Bath City Council (LibDum controlled) changed its mind and decided that private cars would be exempt.

It woud be interesting to know how they define 'private cars'

If it is Vehicle Category M1 then MHs are exempt. If it is by 'Private' then Private HGVs would be exempt.

Geoff

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[gus-lopez]

It was the same in London, though, so there is a precedent.

No it wasn't.The only people 'consulted' in London were registered users of Transport for London(TFL) less than 100k at the time, & including me a foreigner who doesn't live there, & voting on a proposal affecting 8 or 9 million.& at the end less than 40k actally voted on the ulez

I read somewhere one of the bus companies said they have no plans to change their buses which aren't euro 6, they'll just add the £60 a day on the fares so it'll be the guy trying to get to work who's paying it.

They spout that the london buses are "ULEZ compliant" yes they are . unfortnately due to lack of infrastructure each bus is charged at night by its own standalone diesel generator.How is that reducing emissions?

If it was about money, then they'd have charged the cars too. Birmingham have.

It is discrimination & any legal approach should drag the cars in. They are using slullduggery to leave out cars & so a vast % of the population who ,like London, won't get involved as it is "not affecting us" then once it is establised for the lorries & vans they automatically include cars.

£20 is only 100 miles of fuel.

each time you enter & leave.

The consultation is specifically aimed at Motor Caravans, so that excludes cars, and caters for blank vehicle category on page 11:
"A vehicle’s categorisation can be found in the vehicle’s V5C document (logbook) and is determined by the manufacturers’ homologation process. There are four possible categorisations on the V5C document for a motorhome/campervan:• M1 or M1 Special Purpose (SP)• N1• N2• In some cases the field on the V5C document may be blank."

as above any legal challenge should ensure that cars are included so as it affects all & everyone.
Personally , especially after the London debacle when basically many voting were either cyclists & pedestrians , I would specifically exclude anyone who does not drive, anyone who drives but does not at the present moment own a vehicle & give an additional votes to people for each vehicle they own.
If they wish to reduce emissions the only answer is a total ban. Anything else is smoke & mirrors & designed to benefit the council.

The trouble is now in the UK that councils have become like the unions of old. Infiltrated & controlled by the few & with there own agenda, many of whom are not locals & do not even live in the area.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

I've filled in their questionnaire as we visit Burrs Park C&MC site.

 

[vzac]

We moved from Bury because of the air pollution that seriously affected OH’s asthma. Our children and grandchildren still live in the area, most of them within walking distance of Burrs CMHC site. It will now cost us £10 a day to visit them. The main cause of pollution in the area is MW traffic and traffic jams and charging isn’t going to change that.

Hi we moved from tottington, in 1972, cause my dad said he was not going to live in b****y manchester so moved back to lancashire. He was wise, I now understand he had an insight to the future.

 

[vzac]

P.s. that was the time of the boundary changes, just incase you were not born then or have forgotten. Oh them great days when bury had green buses and was in lancashire.

 

[Wack]

And when these vehicles are forced off the road off to third world countries for them to keep poluting the planet. Cant tax them people they havent any money.

Hence my point in my previous post:

They'll never put the M60 in the zone no matter what

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[Guigsy]

They'll never put the M60 in the zone no matter what

Although, they are claiming the CAZ is to reduce NO2. Which is mostly produced by vehicles on high speed roads like motorways.

Birmingham are reducing NO2 emissions from the M6 by reducing the speed limit to 50mph.

 

[GJH]

No it wasn't.The only people 'consulted' in London were registered users of Transport for London(TFL) less than 100k at the time, & including me a foreigner who doesn't live there, & voting on a proposal affecting 8 or 9 million.& at the end less than 40k actally voted on the ulez

How strange, then, that I still have the replies sent to me in 2007, 2008 and 2009 on file

 

[Ivory55]

At the end of the day politicians are salesman and they will sell what they think the public will buy. If they think low emissions zones will buy voters, that is what will happen. They are only in it for the money.

 

[gus-lopez]

How strange, then, that I still have the replies sent to me in 2007, 2008 and 2009 on file

Therefore then you must have been registered with them in some way?

 

[GJH]

Therefore then you must have been registered with them in some way?

Not at all. I simply used the email address mayor@london.gov.uk and the emails were passed to TfL to deal with.

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[Wack]

Although, they are claiming the CAZ is to reduce NO2. Which is mostly produced by vehicles on high speed roads like motorways.

Birmingham are reducing NO2 emissions from the M6 by reducing the speed limit to 50mph.

The government could solve problems in Birmingham overnight if it was really about pollution , there's a handy bypass they could compulsorily purchase then most of the traffic wouldn't be chugging along stopping and starting for 20 miles

 

[Guigsy]

The government could solve problems in Birmingham overnight if it was really about pollution , there's a handy bypass they could compulsorily purchase then most of the traffic wouldn't be chugging along stopping and starting for 20 miles

The Birmingham CAZ is nowhere near the M6.

 

[gus-lopez]

Not at all. I simply used the email address mayor@london.gov.uk and the emails were passed to TfL to deal with.

apologies ,you are talking about the origial consultation whereas I'm talking about the change to the ulez

 

[Wack]

The Birmingham CAZ is nowhere near the M6.

the M6 goes right through the middle of birmingham though , unless it's 3am you're lucky to be doing more than 10mph , elevated as well so the gunk spreads further, you can't tell me that doesn't contribute to the general level of pollution throughout birmingham , if the M6 toll was free congestion would stop overnight

 

[Guigsy]

the M6 goes right through the middle of birmingham though , unless it's 3am you're lucky to be doing more than 10mph , elevated as well so the gunk spreads further, you can't tell me that doesn't contribute to the general level of pollution throughout birmingham , if the M6 toll was free congestion would stop overnight

The CAZ is a tiny bit in the middle that just goes around the city centre. It's a mile from the M6.

And as has been proved MANY times before, adding road capacity works for a short period, sometimes only weeks, until supressed demand is unlocked. Then the congestion would return. And it increases demand on the roads around it, making overall congestion worse.

And anyway, a good proportion of the traffic using the M6 is going to or from the greater Birmingham area, so the M6 Toll is no use.

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[Potty]

P.s. that was the time of the boundary changes, just incase you were not born then or have forgotten. Oh them great days when bury had green buses and was in lancashire.

Not born there (I am a soft southerner) but grew with Bury being in Lancashire and it always will be to me.

 

[vzac]

Woop, woop. Independence for bury, let's start the political party. Robert peel as leader.

 

[dunnah01]

What will the new tax be spent on?

 

[vzac]

More police

 

[sparky]

I have checked the govment web site for caz and my 2014 4.5ton phgv euro 5 diesel for bath Birmingham says no charge?

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