Galileo SatNavs - will we miss them?

[Tykatem]

PS: I think we should team up with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and develop our own with joint control and investment.
We could supply all the expertise with those other countries providing financial resources in return for full access.

Those countries are not adventurous like the US and we tend to think along the same lines. I think it would be a safe partnership.

Then-Prime Minister Theresa May said in December 2018 that the UK expected to work with its Five Eyes intelligence-sharing partners - the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand - in developing a new system.

The Americans are understood to like the OneWeb solution because it provides something very different to the existing architectures for satellite navigation.

For the UK, it also presents the possibility of obtaining capability at significantly lower cost than had originally been envisaged for an independent system.

Brexit: UK starts work on buying own sat-nav system to rival Galileo

Ministers fear over-reliance on US-based GPS in the event of an attack or technical failure.

www.bbc.co.uk

Pete

 

[Gromett]

Just realised I was calling the Russian system Glassnos instead of Glonass. That's what happens when you do it from memory rather than checking before posting

 

[Off da Grid]

Might have to go old school remember what bonnets on cars were for, not so useful on our vans, that’s where you used to spread out the map.
With out satnav software most people wouldn’t be able to navigate further than there local town these days

 

[John Barrett]

Just realised I was calling the Russian system Glassnos instead of Glonass. That's what happens when you do it from memory rather than checking before posting

IIRC there was a Russian system called by that name: something to do with a chap called Gorbachov?

 

[nicholsong]

I guess they could just alter the coding so only the US military could use it. A bit like what happened, but in reverse, of when the public were allowed access, years ago, to more accurate fixes.

Yes you are right but we civilians used it then and could still use it, but we would still be using a US system for free.

Geoff

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[nicholsong]

Might have to go old school remember what bonnets on cars were for, not so useful on our vans, that’s where you used to spread out the map.
With out satnav software most people wouldn’t be able to navigate further than there local town these days

I knew a lady who had other ideas - at the end of a drunken party she took a student out and laid him on the bonnet.

Afterwards she said 'Well somebody had to teach him'

Her husband was not asked for comments.

 

[Chrisvh]

There are doubts about the OneWeb system the Government is looking to buy into. Unlike the other systems it uses satellites in low orbit and some have misgivings about this. But they are in polar orbits so coverage at the Poles is much better than GPS. Santa will like this feature.

Exactly. GPS systems require mid earth orbit technology. But OneWeb had some very persistent lobbyists and our Government is not renowned for scientific or technical expertise.

 

[Richard n Ann]

If a proper war kicks off I wouldn't be worrying about GPS anyway. I hope I'm the first to get vaporised quickly and painlessly. I mean lockdown was bad enough but imagine a nuclear winter

And to top it off...
.
.


The Tom Tom doesn't work!

 

[sgl5gjr]

I use Galileo on my cycling GPS along with Glonass as a choice.... my Phone uses Galileo, GPS, Glonass so doesn't discriminate. Since opting on the Cycling computer for Galileo/Glonass as setting the routing and results have been much more accurate... but then the U.S system would be more inferior for civilians whereas Galileo was developed for all not just military

 

[Pausim]

Not sure what the satellite constellation has to do with better routing, I thought the device simply worked out where it was from the relative timing of the satellite signals it receives. More satellites and better signals may improve the accuracy of the position but the routing is down to the device, the map set and the algorithms it uses.

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[MattR]

The Times yesterday:
Boris Johnson is poised to secure the $500 million part-purchase of an American satellite operator as the first step in creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.

The prime minister and Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, signed off the purchase of a 20 per cent stake in OneWeb, an operator of low-earth orbit satellites, last night. Although the government technically is making a bid for the stake, British officials said the transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

Looks like the UK has made yet another investment that baffles those who know about such things: https://www.theguardian.com/science...e-experts-oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit

 

[g3cwi]

creating Britain’s own sovereign system to rival the EU’s Galileo.transaction was at “a very advanced stage”.

using our expertise in developing the CV19 tracking app I expect

 

[SIFTA SAM]

Looks like the UK has made yet another investment that baffles those who know about such things: https://www.theguardian.com/science...e-experts-oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit

So when has Elon Musk (Tesla electric cars) been previously wrong?
So called selective 'experts' are ten a penny.
Another negative repeated report, originating from the Guardian.

 

[MattR]

So when has Elon Musk (Tesla electric cars) been previously wrong?
So called selective 'experts' are ten a penny.
Another negative repeated report, originating from the Guardian.

I've no idea; way out of my knowledge but it seems that others seem uncertain too: https://www.satellitetoday.com/opin...l-be-decided-by-customers-not-cash-infusions/

 

[pete4x4]

Low earth orbit navigation systems have been around for a long time, the advantage of them is that not only can you get your position but you can also relay messages as it goes overhead, search for Argos satellite systems, they are used to track Whales, land mammals and shipping containers etc around the world but the important thing is that you can glean your position from it.
Argos is owned by the French hence the desire to have your own

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[Gromett]

Exactly. GPS systems require mid earth orbit technology.

What makes you think this. A GPS system requires a number of satellites in any orbit. The lower the orbit the more satellites you need but there is nothing stopping you using satellites in low, medium or high earth orbits.
All you need to ensure is that each satellite keeps a very very very accurate clock and to transmit this clock. The ground device simply captures these radio signals and does a bit of maths to calculate location based on the difference in the times. Closer satellites signals will be received sooner than satellites that are further away. Gross simplification, but orbit height has no bearing other than the number of satellites needed in orbit.

But they are in polar orbits so coverage at the Poles is much better than GPS.

current ones are. But they are not talking about using the current network for GPS. That is not what they were designed for.

 

[Gromett]

Looks like the UK has made yet another investment that baffles those who know about such things: https://www.theguardian.com/science...e-experts-oneweb-investment-uk-galileo-brexit

I had to stop reading after a few paragraphs as the expert obviously didn't know what he was talking about.

The value in the company is the licensed frequencies it has, it's intellectual property and it's expertise. They would not use the same communications satellites for GPS. Typical Guardian naysaying and negativity again.
I am not convinced it is a good idea, but not for the reasons this "expert" is quoting.

 

[MattR]

I had to stop reading after a few paragraphs as the expert obviously didn't know what he was talking about.

The value in the company is the licensed frequencies it has, it's intellectual property and it's expertise. They would not use the same communications satellites for GPS. Typical Guardian naysaying and negativity again.
I am not convinced it is a good idea, but not for the reasons this "expert" is quoting.

Apologies for my ignorance in these things but did the second article make more sense?

 

[Gromett]

Apologies for my ignorance in these things but did the second article make more sense?

No need to apologise. Well for being a Guardian reader maybe

Which second article sorry, Did I miss one?

 

[MattR]

No need to apologise. Well for being a Guardian reader maybe

Which second article sorry, Did I miss one?

I've no idea; way out of my knowledge but it seems that others seem uncertain too: https://www.satellitetoday.com/opin...l-be-decided-by-customers-not-cash-infusions/

I read a variety of news sources to try and gain a balanced perspective... I've no idea how valid this opinion is but it seems like UK Plc is making another investment in something that isn't well regarded.

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[DBK]

We've had ferry companies without any ferries so at least they are consistent.

 

[stevec]

GPS has come a long way. Now we take it for granted and chipsets are cheap. We all have access to at least one in our phones. I used to work for a company that did positioning systems for offshore work. Pre GPS they were earth based, MainChain, Loran C, Pulse8. All gone now thanks to GPS. We had one of the first 8 channel GPS receivers. A 4U high 19 inch rack box that cost $100,000. Made by Trimble. As mentioned here only accurate to around 100mtrs with the SA turned on. We developed differential GPS to correct out the errors. I remember doing bit error rate testing over Inmarsat which was used to transmit the differential data. Then when the Gulf wars started and SA got turned off accuracy improved. We also did some of the early work on GPS for farmers. All ground breaking stuff in it's day. We even had to dial up the US to get the latest ephemeris data for each satellite and to find out which satellites would be down. Hey ho, happy days

 

[nicholsong]

If people knew how astro-navigation works they could easily know how satnavs use the same principles using satellites.

It is three or more intersecting circles giving a position at the centre, in simple terms.

The continuous update of the satellite system is a lot quicker than taking sights on astro bodies with a sextant, also clear skies are not needed.

Geoff

 

[BusyBuilder]

We'll be launching or own satellites soon in Sutherland.

 

[Gromett]

We'll be launching or own satellites soon in Sutherland.

That would be nice to see. I am not holding my breath though.

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[BusyBuilder]

Glasgow is one of the largest satellite manufacturing facilities in europe if not the world. makes sense to launch them in Sutherland. Probably next year.

 

[StephDeLux]

5 meters precision is plenty good enough for me. I don't need a device to tell me if I'm at the front or the back of my motorhome.

 

[Pausim]

5 meters precision is plenty good enough for me. I don't need a device to tell me if I'm at the front or the back of my motorhome.

Me too but there are commercial applications, such as agriculture, where greater precision is very helpful.

 

[ShaKen]

I guess they could just alter the coding so only the US military could use it. A bit like what happened, but in reverse, of when the public were allowed access, years ago, to more accurate fixes.

I live near the west coast of Scotland and go boating there regularly and I’ve seen Selective Availability being used during War Games / Exercises / manoeuvres run by the US and Uk navies as well as GPS signals completely disappearing in particular areas; at least to us civilians.

 

[autorouter]

All you need to ensure is that each satellite keeps a very very very accurate clock and to transmit this clock. The ground device simply captures these radio signals and does a bit of maths to calculate location based on the difference in the times.

Interestingly (or maybe not...) the clock has to be so accurate that the weaker gravitational field further from the Earth's surface affects the clock timing, and has to be accounted for. One of the very few practical applications of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity.

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