Flooding in Wales

[Mullet Man]

So what's your answer to the present issue of flooding?
Build flood defenses at great expense, rebuild existing to higher levels, where does it stop.
We are apparently going to get wetter as a country so we need to do something.
Clearing out and widening existing streams and rivers would make a big difference I think, although admittedly also not cheap it could be started on straight away, if we just ignored bio-diversity.

Widening streams and rivers slows the flow so that they silt up quickly.

 

[Silver-Fox]

secondly houses built decades ago in the town are now being affected by flooding because the water has to be displaced somewhere...

Who’d have guessed

 

[Silver-Fox]

Widening streams and rivers slows the flow so that they silt up quickly.

Then dredge and clean out river/stream beds more often.

 

[Mullet Man]

Then dredge and clean out river/stream beds more often.

Not practical or necessary in most cases. In most natural rivers the silt load is kept moving by the flow. There are exceptions of course.
Many of the problems we are seeing are because of developments on floodplains that should never have been allowed. I worked for the NRA and then Environment Agency for 19 years and was astonished that when plans for development were passed to us for comment,our opinion was only advisory and not mandatory. Local planning depts. would grant permission despite our advice to the contrary. The real elephant in the room,that no one is mentioning, despite the evidence writ large everywhere you look, is rapid climate change. You can't engineer to mitigate unprecedented rainfall on the scale we are seeing.

 

[Nanniemate]

Huge thunder rumbles and the rain is heavy again

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[SpeedyDux]

House building is across all political parties as it is said its a national importance, Builders own a lot of land but hold on to them in land banks so they can make as much as possible.

Totally agree building on near or by flood plains is irresponsible in the same way not building infrastructure at the same time, so 15,000 houses have been built near where I live that was during build build build Tory time, same would be happening if they were still in power or greens or Liberals.

Mr Price vandalised a river and its environment the courts have ruled this, if he truly wanted to help mitigating flooding then he should have worked with the water authorities and enviroment agency who would work with him. just digging or widening a small part of a watercourse will not stop flooding a wider systemic action needs to be taken. its too simplistic of him to think this would stop flooding.

The major housebuilders don't actually own most of their land banks. It is a common misconception. They pay the landowner for an option to purchase lasting several years. The idea is to control the supply and price of land. Meanwhile they are allowed to apply for Planning consent for residential development on land they don't own yet. There is a persistent mismatch between the developers' business model and the government's doubling of the target for new housebuilding. The previous Tory target was always undershot significantly anyway so what is the point of Labour doubling it? That can't provide a solution to the housing shortage. Blaming the situation on delays in the Planning system is also misleading. The real bottleneck is the business model itself. Clueless politicians.

I keep reading that the Planning authorities frequently disregard the objections from the Environment Agency based on flood risk.

Maybe Mr Price got fed up with the priority for water voles and trees over his fields becoming underwater. I wouldn't assume that the environmentalists and EA shared his concerns to the same extent and would have prioritised his interests. If regular dredging had been carried out he might not have believed self-help was his last resort. Jailing him was rather harsh.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Back on topic, I drove past the local Rugby Club today. I have never seen their pitches so badly flooded although it is a frequent occurrence. Very deep across their whole site. Last time, I saw people on paddleboards passing the goalposts! This time, maybe waterskiers or dinghies. Who know, eh. Should be renamed Rugby and Sailing Club.

 

[Silver-Fox]

The real elephant in the room,that no one is mentioning, despite the evidence writ large everywhere you look, is rapid climate change. You can't engineer to mitigate unprecedented rainfall on the scale we are seeing.

I can remember as a kid very heavy rain fall.

Roads flooded, drains struggled to cope along with streams etc.

But that was back when the cleared drains, ditches and dredged rivers.

Building on flood plains is just ridiculous.

 

[Nanniemate]

I can remember as a kid very heavy rain fall.

Roads flooded, drains struggled to cope along with streams etc.

But that was back when the cleared drains, ditches and dredged rivers.

Building on flood plains is just ridiculous.

But people still buy the houses .why would you buy a house on a flood plain?

If we stopped buying them they would stop building them

 

[KASPAR]

Back on topic, I drove past the local Rugby Club today. I have never seen their pitches so badly flooded although it is a frequent occurrence. Very deep across their whole site. Last time, I saw people on paddleboards passing the goalposts! This time, maybe waterskiers or dinghies. Who know, eh. Should be renamed Rugby and Sailing Club.

Keynsham per chance?

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[davanne]

Huge thunder rumbles and the rain is heavy again

In Carmarthenshire we had the loudest thunder I have ever heard yesterday evening then the power went off but came straight back on again. Not heard thunder today. It’s been fine all day until about 5 when it stated light rain.

 

[Landy Andy]

But people still buy the houses .why would you buy a house on a flood plain?

If we stopped buying them they would stop building them

People don’t understand that they are on a flood plain, and sellers aren’t going to advertise it. They can also get insurance when new as there won’t be history of flooded houses in these new postcodes. Then they will flood and then be uninsurable

 

[Cozz nd Keith]

I've just drove past pontypridd and the flood plains are full but not overflowing they appear to have loads of capacity the problem is where the river is forced in the man-made direction decided in victorian times.

Weather is dry with bueatiful rainbows then heavey rain

Unsaleable and uninsurable homes the home owners are trapped

Yes I think they have suffered this a few times. Used to know a guy who lived in Sion street, was unable to get insurance. Very sad for those affected

 

[Coolcats]

The major housebuilders don't actually own most of their land banks. It is a common misconception. They pay the landowner for an option to purchase lasting several years. The idea is to control the supply and price of land. Meanwhile they are allowed to apply for Planning consent for residential development on land they don't own yet. There is a persistent mismatch between the developers' business model and the government's doubling of the target for new housebuilding. The previous Tory target was always undershot significantly anyway so what is the point of Labour doubling it? That can't provide a solution to the housing shortage. Blaming the situation on delays in the Planning system is also misleading. The real bottleneck is the business model itself. Clueless politicians.

I keep reading that the Planning authorities frequently disregard the objections from the Environment Agency based on flood risk.

Maybe Mr Price got fed up with the priority for water voles and trees over his fields becoming underwater. I wouldn't assume that the environmentalists and EA shared his concerns to the same extent and would have prioritised his interests. If regular dredging had been carried out he might not have believed self-help was his last resort. Jailing him was rather harsh.

Landowners cannot just dig out rivers and watercourses without reference to the laws of the land and Mr Price fell foul and was sent to prison...Justice was served... as they say we cant just pick and choose which laws we wish to follow.

Think they Developers own more Land than you think, are very very rich and influence policy big time.

The 11 largest housebuilders own or control 1.17 million plots, competition regulator says​

​

Michael Gove sets out plans to end house-building ‘cartel’ ​

Have a peek at page 4 point 9

 

[MrsC]

Not just builders and planners ignoring established flood plains. How about the low lying land along the Bristol Channel and Severn Estuary flooded by a suspected tsunami which affected. 579 km of coastline? And living in North Wales I clearly remember the local floods - 1964 Llangollen/ 1990 Towyn/1993 Llandudno/2012 Rhyl - the Welsh saying “ raining old ladies and sticks”!!! My father hated small fields being taken over by commercial farmers who tore out the hedges and filled in the ditches. Originally we had fields each named after something distinctive to them, ie there was ‘ old oaks’ the ‘hay meadow’ etc to 40 years later become one - ‘the Canada field’. Water will always find a way out - Canute thought he had supernatural powers and believed he could stop the tide. Planning authorities seem to have the same mind set.

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[Nanniemate]

Yes I think they have suffered this a few times. Used to know a guy who lived in Sion street, was unable to get insurance. Very sad for those affected

Sion Street had always had issues but the other side of the river is a new problem in recent years I believe

One garage that was flooded had no insurance and was full of customers cars how can you run a business with insurance?

I remember years ago cylfynydd was flooded and it stuck in my memory as I only had second hand furniture but did have both house and contents insurance

One lady interviewed on TV outside her home with a very expensive leather Chesterfield suite on the pavement behind her stating she had no insurance.
I felt sorry for her until then sympathy went to disbelief.

There should be a government backed policy for those who can't get insurance because of a history of flooding but I'm not as sympathetic towards those who choose not to have it. To me it's a householder responsibility and an unavoidable cost of running a house.

Saying that a young painter comes to mind who was telling me that he was in trouble with the council as no one told him when he bought a house they would have to pay council tax

 

[Joethejoiner]

The major housebuilders don't actually own most of their land banks. It is a common misconception. They pay the landowner for an option to purchase lasting several years. The idea is to control the supply and price of land. Meanwhile they are allowed to apply for Planning consent for residential development on land they don't own yet. There is a persistent mismatch between the developers' business model and the government's doubling of the target for new housebuilding. The previous Tory target was always undershot significantly anyway so what is the point of Labour doubling it? That can't provide a solution to the housing shortage. Blaming the situation on delays in the Planning system is also misleading. The real bottleneck is the business model itself. Clueless politicians.

I keep reading that the Planning authorities frequently disregard the objections from the Environment Agency based on flood risk.

Maybe Mr Price got fed up with the priority for water voles and trees over his fields becoming underwater. I wouldn't assume that the environmentalists and EA shared his concerns to the same extent and would have prioritised his interests. If regular dredging had been carried out he might not have believed self-help was his last resort. Jailing him was rather harsh.

Did you actually read the whole report?
Absolutely heehaw to do with the protection of water voles .
All to do with Mr. Price doing things for the benefit of Mr. Price

 

[Gromett]

Logic would suggest to me that you Dredge through built up areas and just after, then put in the means to store and slow down water in between. I recall this was done somewhere recently but I can't remember the details.
But a flood barely raised the river level through the town below the changes.

Found one of the projects I heard about.

Very, Very interesting.

 

[SpeedyDux]

There should be a government backed policy for those who can't get insurance because of a history of flooding but I'm not as sympathetic towards those who choose not to have it. To me it's a householder responsibility and an unavoidable cost of running a house.

There is a kind of government-backed insurance scheme of last resort called Flood Re. Insurance industry pooling their flood risk.

I haven't looked into it in detail, but I somehow doubt that the government is actually underwriting this scheme to any significant degree, to save the insurance industry from actually losing money. Whether Flood Re is available to every affected houseowner is also not clear to me.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Did you actually read the whole report?
Absolutely heehaw to do with the protection of water voles .
All to do with Mr. Price doing things for the benefit of Mr. Price

Why would I read every Report? Life's too short. I was relying on my recollection of news reporting at the time.

I also understand that EU Ecology legislation played a big part in causing the terrible flooding in Valencia, as another example of misguided do-gooding. Over here my sympathies are with the farmers and other locals living on the Somerset levels. We need to be more like the Dutch.

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[SpeedyDux]

Landowners cannot just dig out rivers and watercourses without reference to the laws of the land and Mr Price fell foul and was sent to prison...Justice was served... as they say we cant just pick and choose which laws we wish to follow.

Think they Developers own more Land than you think, are very very rich and influence policy big time.

The 11 largest housebuilders own or control 1.17 million plots, competition regulator says​

​

Michael Gove sets out plans to end house-building ‘cartel’​

Have a peek at page 4 point 9

View attachment 983310

I can at least agree that the private housebuilding industry is effectively a cartel. I have worked in that industry for one of the big players. Also, that it is very effective at lobbying to get politicians to do what it wants. Eg. by focusing their attention on the Planning system. They want to liberalise it and effectively ban or at least stifle NIMBY-ism. Local democracy? Pffft. In my opinion that would only have a marginal effect on the number of new dwellings built each year by releasing more Green Belt and prime agricultural land for development, which is more profitable for developers than brownfield sites that need spending on clearance and remediation.

The actual bottleneck is the industry's restrictive practice (cartel-like) of effectively rationing newbuilds to keep the price high. They will still get away with this, and I predict with a high degree of confidence that the number of new dwellings they build won't get anywhere close to Labour's annual target.

The current panacea for the housing shortage seems to be a massive trend of conversion of what would otherwise be large family homes into HMOs that don't require planning consent. The licensing requirement for HMOs is often ignored by the greedy landlords because the Local Authority hardly bothers to enforce it. A widespread lowering of housing standards, in effect. That, and the hidden "beds in sheds" trend. Along with the more visible caravan and van dwellers on urban streets. Tent cities next. A downward spiral.

 

[Joethejoiner]

Why would I read every Report? Life's too short. I was relying on my recollection of news reporting at the time.

I also understand that EU Ecology legislation played a big part in causing the terrible flooding in Valencia, as another example of misguided do-gooding. Over here my sympathies are with the farmers and other locals living on the Somerset levels. We need to be more like the Dutch.

It was a very short piece in the link provided.
I asked if you had read it as your comments made no sense

 

[TDub49]

Why would I read every Report? Life's too short. I was relying on my recollection of news reporting at the time.

I also understand that EU Ecology legislation played a big part in causing the terrible flooding in Valencia, as another example of misguided do-gooding. Over here my sympathies are with the farmers and other locals living on the Somerset levels. We need to be more like the Dutch.

Always interested in new facts so could you point me in the direction of the course for your understanding that EU ecology legislation played a big role in the flooding in Valencia? Ta.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Always interested in new facts so could you point me in the direction of the course for your understanding that EU ecology legislation played a big role in the flooding in Valencia? Ta.

That depends on whether you rely on the BBC for example as your fount of knowledge. I don't. Some other sources say that the removal of weirs to prioritise fish migration played a significant role in the scale of the Valencia floods (which are not unprecedented and flooding there was a concern even during Roman times). That claim about the removal of weirs has a ring of truth about it despite the efforts of the usual biased fact checkers to poo-poo it. There's a probably a whole bunch of causal factors, some directly or indirectly due to misguided Spanish government interference and EU eco-directives, but as we might expect, climate change seems to be the standard COP-out for a cock-up. Such tragedies happen when all the holes in the cheese suddenly line up.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Mullet Man]

That depends on whether you rely on the BBC for example as your fount of knowledge. I don't. Some other sources say that the removal of weirs to prioritise fish migration played a significant role in the scale of the Valencia floods (which are not unprecedented and flooding there was a concern even during Roman times). That claim about the removal of weirs has a ring of truth about it despite the efforts of the usual biased fact checkers to poo-poo it. There's a probably a whole bunch of causal factors, some directly or indirectly due to misguided Spanish government interference and EU eco-directives, but as we might expect, climate change seems to be the standard COP-out for a cock-up. Such tragedies happen when all the holes in the cheese suddenly line up.

Feel free to disagree.

If you have a weir on a river and the river rises, the water going over the weir rises by the same amount.

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[gus-lopez]

At most, the developers will get a fine, and they have said they will replace it with 'ornamental bushes' at the completion of the build.

It should be law that any deviation or damage to or destroying of, anything protected automatically rescinds the planning & building regulations sine die.

then he should have worked with the water authorities and enviroment agency who would work with him

you are guessing that they would.

By canalising the river through his land, he speeds up the flow, and reduces the likelihood of his land flooding, but creates a higher risk of flooding down river.

True so why when a weir that restricted flow to downstream broke & collapsed & was reported to the nra did they do nothing about it where I lived in Devon?
Why then a year or two later when fields downstream flooded did they attempt to "wonder why?" or " we had no idea? Yes you did lying scum I told you & here are the emails. Absolute scum all of them.It was still the same 7 years later.

The whole length of the river has deliberate places allowed to flood but these have been engineered in and designed.

As above no good designing them if the upkeep is not maintained.

Unsaleable and uninsurable homes the home owners are trapped

As the lawyers said if it is unsaleable & uninsurable & you have a mortgage then strop paying as repossessing it won't get them anywhere.

Then dredge and clean out river/stream beds more often.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jailing him was rather harsh.

& if he's any sense he'll arrange a meeting with the NRA, environment agency & the environmentalists & then do as I would & execute them all.

But that was back when the cleared drains, ditches and dredged rivers.

Yes that leads to regular flooding uncleared ditches in the country side.

why would you buy a house on a flood plain?

They do though as they do not know .Even locals. I bought at the top on a new build that was on a flood plain.local hotel owner bought down on the bottom;the most expensive ones, next to a roundabout & A) had no idea it was a flood plain even though he was born there & B) failed to believe that the new road up to the roundabout & past & up to 150m from the Weary Traveller pub & J28 of the M5 was going to be the new "town bypass" ?? Thick as shite didn't come in to it.

Then they will flood and then be uninsurable

as above if mortgaged you stop paying.

aying that a young painter comes to mind who was telling me that he was in trouble with the council as no one told him when he bought a house they would have to pay council taxThey walk amongst us.

There is a kind of government-backed insurance scheme of last resort called Flood Re. Insurance industry pooling their flood risk.

I haven't looked into it in detail, but I somehow doubt that the government is actually underwriting this scheme to any significant degree, to save the insurance industry from actually losing money. Whether Flood Re is available to every affected houseowner is also not clear to me.

here we have the 'consorcio' which takes a minutre % of any type of insurance sold & pays out in the event of natural catastrophes like the Valencia flooding.works well. No such thing as being uninsurable.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Found one of the projects I heard about.

Very, Very interesting.

Interesting. [BTW, what on earth were all those scattered tree trunks doing?]

Right up to the point where the BBC journalist claiming the credit turns out to be Justin Rowlatt, the BBC's unqualified and often spreader of climate change misinformation, against whom complaints have been upheld. Still in post regardless.

Maybe this is one area where the NT has made a difference in the good sense. On the other hand, I was appalled when the NT decided to cull the entire herd of Fallow Deer at Dyrham Park 3 years ago. Likewise the NT's woke moralising regarding links between their portfolio of historic stately homes and the slave trade. Volunteers who object quitting in droves. I support the Restore Trust rebels.

 

[kevino]

Keynsham per chance?

Probably - I have played and refereed on it countless times and always amazed at how quickly it recovers. I suspect Avon Rugby in Bath will also be underwater

 

[Gromett]

Interesting. [BTW, what on earth were all those scattered tree trunks doing?]

Right up to the point where the BBC journalist claiming the credit turns out to be Justin Rowlatt, the BBC's unqualified and often spreader of climate change misinformation, against whom complaints have been upheld. Still in post regardless.

Maybe this is one area where the NT has made a difference in the good sense. On the other hand, I was appalled when the NT decided to cull the entire herd of Fallow Deer at Dyrham Park 3 years ago. Likewise the NT's woke moralising regarding links between their portfolio of historic stately homes and the slave trade. Volunteers who object quitting in droves. I support the Restore Trust rebels.

The trees are there to initially slow the flow of water so it didn't just scour the surface.

As for the rest. I am not a fan of either the NT or the BBC. But I have seen this story from other sources and it adds up. Seems to me to be an Excellent idea upstream of towns. Then dredge the town to ensure it flow fast through it, then do the same a mile or so downstream of the town. It seems to me this should be done in the top 3rd of a river or something like that to reduce what is going into the river. Then heavily dredge the bottom third to the sea, so that it can escape quickly. The middle should then resolve itself by not having as much going in and what does go in getting taken away quickly.

Just my thoughts as someone with no experience of this kind of thing. Probably not suitable for all rivers, I think rivers like the Trent are just too big for this kind of thing...

 

[DandJ]

As above no good designing them if the upkeep is not maintained.

This is a big issue..... (with many aspects of day to day life) ....gulleys and drains block and full of leaves so roads 'flood' then get surface damage that then washes into the drainage system/stream/rivers etc etc....

The trees are there to initially slow the flow of water so it didn't just scour the surface.

As for the rest. I am not a fan of either the NT or the BBC. But I have seen this story from other sources and it adds up. Seems to me to be an Excellent idea upstream of towns. Then dredge the town to ensure it flow fast through it, then do the same a mile or so downstream of the town. It seems to me this should be done in the top 3rd of a river or something like that to reduce what is going into the river. Then heavily dredge the bottom third to the sea, so that it can escape quickly. The middle should then resolve itself by not having as much going in and what does go in getting taken away quickly.

Just my thoughts as someone with no experience of this kind of thing. Probably not suitable for all rivers, I think rivers like the Trent are just too big for this kind of thing...

"Slow the Flow". Something they are big on in the Calder Valley in Yorkshire where Boxing Day floods in 2015 were devastating.

Hardcastle Crags - Slow The Flow

Hardcastle Crags, our local National Trust site here in Calderdale is an area of outstanding natural beauty and the home of Slow The Flow’s most successful project on the ground to date.

slowtheflow.net

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