Fines in the post 😐

[Gingernuts]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

 

[Gingernuts]

By legally enforceable I mean in Scotland, English company, Scottish law is different!?

 

[nicholsong]

Are these legally enforceable?

In criminal law not enforceable, but they could sue in Civil Law, as by parking there you have accepted conditions of contract and then breached them.

According to the wordings of the notices and any other conditions referred to therein, it would then be a question as to whether the contract is with the store owner or the parking company.

It would be nice if the law decided that only the landowner/leaseholder could take action in Civil Law, rather than a surrogate parking company, because how many law suits would the likes of Tesco and others like appearing in suits against their customers?

I have never seen one of these PCNs so do not know whose conditions they allege have been breached. Can anyone quote them please.

 

[LesW]

what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

You're in England..

 

[Gingernuts]

In criminal law not enforceable, but they could sue in Civil Law, as by parking there you have accepted conditions of contract and then breached them.

According to the wordings of the notices and any other conditions referred to therein, it would then be a question as to whether the contract is with the store owner or the parking company.

It would be nice if the law decided that only the landowner/leaseholder could take action in Civil Law, rather than a surrogate parking company, because how many law suits would the likes of Tesco and others like appearing in suits against their customers?

I have never seen one of these PCNs so do not know whose conditions they allege have been breached. Can anyone quote them please.

Here you go

In criminal law not enforceable, but they could sue in Civil Law, as by parking there you have accepted conditions of contract and then breached them.

According to the wordings of the notices and any other conditions referred to therein, it would then be a question as to whether the contract is with the store owner or the parking company.

It would be nice if the law decided that only the landowner/leaseholder could take action in Civil Law, rather than a surrogate parking company, because how many law suits would the likes of Tesco and others like appearing in suits against their customers?

I have never seen one of these PCNs so do not know whose conditions they allege have been breached. Can anyone quote them please.

here ya go

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[gus-lopez]

do not converse with them at all. If you do ensure that you state that you · "in no way admit to driving the vehicle" etc; as it is the driver that is liable.
Go on the which forum & they have a parking section which is excellent.

 

[SpeedyDux]

In criminal law not enforceable, but they could sue in Civil Law, as by parking there you have accepted conditions of contract and then breached them.

According to the wordings of the notices and any other conditions referred to therein, it would then be a question as to whether the contract is with the store owner or the parking company.

It would be nice if the law decided that only the landowner/leaseholder could take action in Civil Law, rather than a surrogate parking company, because how many law suits would the likes of Tesco and others like appearing in suits against their customers?

I have never seen one of these PCNs so do not know whose conditions they allege have been breached. Can anyone quote them please.

In a nutshell:

The relevant legislation is part of the Orwellian-named Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. I expect call-me-Dave PM thought that name was hilarious.

The idea behind this was to ban clamping vehicles on private land, and replace that with a ticketing right for the landowner, which in practice gets sublet to money-grabbing private parking management companies.

It is based on a deemed contract with the vehicle driver. Signage requirements are very strict. If those are complied with, the private parking management companies effectively have a statutory right to send the charge notice to the registered keeper of the vehicle, whose details they can get from DVLA.

 

[BikerGraham]

Every now and then the company’s take a stand against those who wish to take it as far as the courts.

So challenging them can bear fruit but. Or always.

My son did this in relation to an issue with a PCN he received.

Whilst the judge had every sympathy with him he said he had to rule in favour of the company as regards for the contract terms which he angreed to by parking in the car park.

This was a civil law of course.

So he lost and it cost him a fair wedge. Whilst he was prepared for this, he paid immediately to ensure a CCJ wasn’t lodged against him which would have buggered his credit score.

TBH if you know you are wrong, albeit by not realising, then just pay the charge. After all it’s their land.

 

[Dandm]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

Tell them you weren’t driving the van and you lend it to so many people that you don’t know who was.

 

[gus-lopez]

Tell them you weren’t driving the van and you lend it to so many people that you don’t know who was.

as long as that is possible on your insurance

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[Dandm]

as long as that is possible on your insurance

They could be driving it on their insurance with 3rd party cover

 

[Ray-Vic]

I got a ticket from the McDonalds at Gatwick Airport when waiting for someone whose flight was delayed. I insisted on being issued with copies of the UKAS calibration certificates for the time stamps on the ANPR cameras before even considering paying a charge, or feel free to take me to court. They dropped the charge.

 

[Gingernuts]

I got a ticket from the McDonalds at Gatwick Airport when waiting for someone whose flight was delayed. I insisted on being issued with copies of the UKAS calibration certificates for the time stamps on the ANPR cameras before even considering paying a charge, or feel free to take me to court. They dropped the charge.

Ooh I like it

 

[Gingernuts]

What I don’t get is cars are mentioned but no tarif for campervans/motorhomes!!

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

Would have been much cheaper to pay top dollar for a site. Plus you get all their facilities. If something seems to be too good to be true it probably is!

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[G10]

I emailed a couple of the larger car parking companies to ask what a motorhome was classed as when there were only options of a car or a coach. No clear response but the general consensus was unless there is a designated code displayed for motorhomes then you should not park.

 

[weemalkie]

Are these legally enforceable?

If it had happened in Scotland then not enforceable. Any pursuit would be through County courts which we don't have in Scotland. Happened to me twice - once in a retail car park the other in a normal car park. Ignored demands and no action taken. Not sure how that would play out as both occurred in England. Do a google search - may be similar cases reported there.

 

[BikerGraham]

Ooh I like it

Doesn’t need to be UKAS certified for calibration.
It’s been perfectly acceptable for decades to use the speaking clock to calibrate against.

Lucky to have got away with it. Wouldn’t have done so if I was in the other end.

But if you’ve got the bottle to call their bluff then why not

 

[VXman]

It's pretty much standard for stores like Tesco etc to have a time limit - usually 2 or 3 hours. They are for shoppers.

I wonder if it would have been different if you had asked store manager.

Doubt it very much. Parking is managed by outside companies and I doubt a store manager has the authority to override Tesco policy even if he could.


I did spend 3 hours parked up in Matalan this afternoon. They have a 4 hour limit. They also state for the use of customers. Why would anyone need 4 hours in Matalan!!! Also stated that you must park in marked spaces - I parked in 4 marked spaces. I await the post but I don't imagine they monitor it with live people.

My wife did get done by Tesco a while ago for parking in the disabled. she was taking her 94 year old mother but forgot to put the blue card in the window. They did let her off after an explanation letter.

 

[Conniedriving]

They are not fines . They are invoices

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[Cheese Monster]

Does this apply to you?

 

[Grumpyfrog]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

Now you know why the car parks were empty.

 

[Clive Beeza]

This country is a flipping joke, in France loads of supermarkets provide a Borne for Motorhomes, in Portugal Lidi have marked out bays for Motorhomes.
Why does this country hate Motorhomes so much.

I dont think it is a question of hating motorhomes
it is in their eyes business, the monitoring of these private car parks
is generally farmed out to car park monitoring companies
and we BRITS whinge but generally pay up
if this was France and against "Jo public's interest "
they would bring the country to a halt with protests
we Brits generally do "not want to get involved"

 

[GBM]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

I once drove onto a pier before realising the parking wasn't free, so drove straight off again. Got fined. What I don't understand is that a member of the public can park on your drive and it's only a civil offence. The police likely won't get involved. It's still private land. You can't breathe in this country without someone claiming you owe them money.

 

[Ianb]

Arrived home after 4 weeks abroad in the van and guess what!?
2 x parking fines!!!!!
1 x Tesco in Dover by horizon parking
Done my shopping got fuel then slept in the van 19.17-01.54 waiting for the ferry got a parking charge notice for £70, £40 if paid in 14days.
1x Durham Road chef by group nexus for £100 arrived at 21.49-06.48 both with photos of my van!
Can’t remember the Durham one I was tired that’s why I stopped, didn’t see any signs!
Both were empty car parks what’s the Fiddlesticksin problem!!???

The Fiddlesticksin problem is that we live in a country of leeches. These leeches are, it seems by law allowed to rob others of cash for their very existence. Nothing to do with blocking access or causing inconvenience to other. No, just a bunch of legalised scammers!!
PS: you are not the only one with a bunch of these demands. I’ll not be paying a single one until a judge says I have to.

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[Ray-Vic]

UKAS is recognised by the UK Government and courts as an accreditation service for calibration; listening to the speaking clock isn't. For devices to be used as evidence in court, calibration of the devices to confirm their accuracy is required (think Police with VASCAR etc, they can't just use their vehicle speedometer). You could listen to the speaking clock, set your timer to it, and then this be out significantly after 1 hour. The idea of UKAS calibration is that it certifies the device accuracy over a set period by using a defined GPS or hydrogen maser source.

It certainly worked for me. Maybe they listened to the speaking clock so knew they couldn't verify the accuracy of their ANPR?

UKAS timer calibration

 

[BikerGraham]

UKAS is recognised by the UK Government and courts as an accreditation service for calibration; listening to the speaking clock isn't. For devices to be used as evidence in court, calibration of the devices to confirm their accuracy is required (think Police with VASCAR etc, they can't just use their vehicle speedometer). You could listen to the speaking clock, set your timer to it, and then this be out significantly after 1 hour. The idea of UKAS calibration is that it certifies the device accuracy over a set period by using a defined GPS or hydrogen maser source.

It certainly worked for me. Maybe they listened to the speaking clock?

UKAS timer calibration

Oh I know about UKAS, calibrations and accuracy.

Criminal is beyond reasonable doubt and civil is on the balance of probability.
Police is one and PCN is another. The speaking clock will be good enough for civil cases as it is as a method of calibration for the likes of ISO 9001 and ISO 17025.
It’s also al depends on how accurate you need to be. Is it to the millisecond, 10th of a second or is a minute or two good enough.
It’s all relative and reasonable. Which will of course dictate how accurate your calibration method needs to be.

Glad you won though.

 

[gus-lopez]

What I don’t get is cars are mentioned but no tarif for campervans/motorhomes!!

If you go on the 'which ' site you can ask whether they are enforceable in scotland

 

[TR5]

We have a Retail Park where people go shopping for all sorts. The car park has a time limit, no option to pay to extend if you want to eat there as well - BUT - it also has a 'no return within 2 hours' rule, which many don't notice. The number of people that get caught out by this, bought something and it doesn't work/fit, forgot a particular thing, so have returned in under the two hours - then received a hefty charge notice for so doing. There has even been double fines, where it registers you going in TWICE, but only coming out the once - so you get two PCN's, one for returning within 2 hours, and one for overstaying the time limit. It's madness!

It's not anywhere where you would park to go somewhere else, either - like a park, town centre, or even a pub.

 

[Blaydon]

Hi Folks,
I have just had to pay a fine for parking in a Sainsbury's car park. I went in, went to the machine, put in my reg number, paid my money but the machine printed two letters not my reg. I wrote my reg on the ticket and put it on the dash. No one came round as they no longer have people. They photograph your car as you go in, and compare the machine record of who has paid. I challenged the company as I had paid, so they did not lose out. I was told I had to pay the fine as it was my responsibility to enter the correct number.
So....if you end up with a ticket that does not have the correct reg number printed on it, you have to pay again, or end up with a fine.
I guess this is what you end up with when parking is done by a private company and machines take over from people.

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[dash300]

POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) is the Official Independent and impartial appeals organisation recognised and regulated by the Ombudsman who handle appeals against PCN's for parking on private land. Oh! Fully funded by the British Parking Association, so that's all fine then!