Farmers.

[L' Hobo]

Is that because up until 1984 farmers used to pay IHT just like the rest of us?

Thatcher removed IHT and the "value" of farmland rocketed 400% in just a few years. Was that because she wanted to reward some hard-working (Tory-voting) rural landowners OR to enable city financiers (aka friends of Denis?) to avoid big tax bills? Either way, farmers were quite prepared to accept ever higher payments for selling farms rather than passing them on to their families. Now the chickens are coming home to roost

How many farms do you know that we're sold?

 

[PaulW2]

The inheritance tax changes are also potentially significant for family-owned businesses that are not agricultural.

One seems to hear much less about their plight. Maybe they're just not as effective a lobby. Maybe they don't have spokespeople like Dyson or Jeremy Clarkson.

 

[Bramidan]

If the “business” ie farming is not economic because according to many all farmers are poor why don’t we ( taxpayers) buy the loss making business? Worth nothing as a going concern.
The asset, obviously the land, value it as “agricultural” still loss making instead of a tax fiddle.
As a Chartered Surveyor not that difficult to put a value on it for “existing use” now listen to the outpourings of grief from all those who have simply benefited by the increase in property values by the influx of tax dodgers.
Have a look at “ woodland relief” if you want to see how the market gets distorted.

 

[enark]

They are either a business or a life style choice. Or both ..if they are a lifestyle choice is it right to exempt from rules that other lifestyle enterprises have to abide by

No they are a business, but not necessarily for financial gain - and without them guess what you starve or pay higher prices for produce from abroad? As well as all the added carbon footprint of importing such produce….and additionally why we have tried, not to successfully to become self sufficient, as otherwise like in 1939, we are at extreme risk if a war were to occur.

Nobody would work the hours for the pittance farmers get unless their are some other benefits..

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

PERHAPS because if you stopped supplying your services, no-one would starve?
It's also interesting to note that you only need to work 5days a week to bring in a living wage and have the choice of what you do at the weekends.


I worked on my parents farm just after the last war, we were encouraged, by whatever way possible, to increase our vegetable crop by 3fold. We dug up hedges to increase acreage and deposited fertiliser and DDT like there was no tomorrow!

Was there talk then about IHT, not on your nelly!

Now Farmers are encouraged to plant hedges and trees and leaves areas fallow.

IF, shoppers were prepared to pay the cost, in Britain, of production instead of ALWAYS going for the cheapest, 80% of the seafood caught in Britain, would not be exported and 40% of potatoes and veg would not have to be ploughed back or discarded because they are the wrong size or shape for the supermarket.

It's not the Tax breaks that the Government MIGHT give the Farmer that's needs sorting out, it's the British attitude to manual labour!

IF farming was as lucrative as most people seem to think it is, why are not more people pursuing it as a career choice?

I have documented evidence [ not by my hand ] of 95 hour weeks worked by me. 24 hour concrete pours meant I literally ate and slept at work. %$£&"" up a £100,000.00 concrete pour was not an option. If all builders stopped supplying their service how long would you survive a British winter outside? You have interpreted my post to make your own argument, [ incorrectly]. My wife also worked full time as a child minder which was the only way we could realistically derive a 2nd income given my hours often worked and at short notice. My father was an appallingly low paid farm worker. Farmer's are the reason their are trade unions in this country [ ref } " The Tolpuddle Martyrs" a group of farm workers transported to Australia for the temerity of wanting a realistic wage for their labour. If farming is so pi$$ poor, why are they still doing it? Why not sell up the asset and live off the interest. Youngsters don't go into farm work because it's a virtual closed shop.
Clearly not a subject we are ever going to find any common ground on being brought up on opposite sides of the same hedge, so little point in further discussion. You have expressed your views and me likewise.
Mike.

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[Montezuma]

As far as I can see Uk farmers are mostly well off. Why else would they be complaining of a reduction of their I inheritance tax allowance to £1.3 million each? If they have to sell part of the farm to pay death duty it may allow younger farmers to enter the business.
A lot of “farmers” appear to be tenants to big land owners & never have the opportunity to own their own. This may hopefully change that.

Hmmmm, . . . . . . . . a very liberal/socialist view of this scenario.

If any farm land has to be sold off to pay death duties, who do you think will buy it?

I doubt it will be any other 'asset-rich-cash-poor' farmer, young or otherwise.

The more likely purchasers are investors, wanting to sit on it until the land price rises, developers wanting to build some of Rayner’s umpteen million houses, or perhaps foreign companies wanting to get in on the solar, or wind, farm business, (which quite naturally will get the blessing of Ed Millipede) or, less likely, but possible, central government as they pursue their green, net-zero dream.

There is one factor that is absolutely set in concrete (like much of this once green and pleasant land will soon be) and that is that any land sold off to pay the death tax will most certainly not be used for agricultural purposes, and as all Aldi-shoppers know, ....
. . . . . . . . . . . Once it's gone, its Gone !!!

 

[oldiesontour]

No they are a business, but not necessarily for financial gain - and without them guess what you starve or pay higher prices for produce from abroad? As well as all the added carbon footprint of importing such produce….and additionally why we have tried, not to successfully to become self sufficient, as otherwise like in 1939, we are at extreme risk if a war were to occur.

Nobody would work the hours for the pittance farmers get unless their are some other benefits..

Many business owners work the hours struggle for years on a pittance and still end up either going bankrupt or if. they eventually make a success and die death duties are due,for many success is maybe owning a truck or two and earning an n income less than they pay their employees
At the end of the day farm prices will rise we will pay a penny a kg more for our carrots,as with all taxation it is not the business owner that pays in the end it is the consumer, ultimately if they go bust still the consumer pays.

 

[Bramidan]

Hmmmm, . . . . . . . . a very liberal/socialist view of this scenario.

If any farm land has to be sold off to pay death duties, who do you think will buy it?

I doubt it will be any other 'asset-rich-cash-poor' farmer, young or otherwise.

The more likely purchasers are investors, wanting to sit on it until the land price rises, developers wanting to build some of Rayner’s umpteen million houses, or perhaps foreign companies wanting to get in on the solar, or wind, farm business, (which quite naturally will get the blessing of Ed Millipede) or, less likely, but possible, central government as they pursue their green, net-zero dream.

There is one factor that is absolutely set in concrete (like much of this once green and pleasant land will soon be) and that is that any land sold off to pay the death tax will most certainly not be used for agricultural purposes, and as all Aldi-shoppers know, ....
. . . . . . . . . . . Once it's gone, it’s Gone !!!

You really could’nt stop dragging labour ministers into the mix could you?
Quite embarrassing really.

 

[Bramidan]

Have you ever considered it’s a global market?
If it’s cheaper to buy Tomatoes etc from a warm productive country why wouldn’t we?
Let’s not eat anything that’s not seasonal in the UK!
Scurvy anybody?
Had a look at the motoerhomers enjoying wine on their travels?

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

These sorts of post are exactly why it's advocated not post them in this area. Take it to the Belly Locker, or the other place where they love to sit all day shovelling mud at each other. Please keep this section of Motorhome Fun for Motorhome matters.
Mike.

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[BouncyBoatFolk]

Have you ever considered it’s a global market?
If it’s cheaper to buy Tomatoes etc from a warm productive country why wouldn’t we?
Let’s not eat anything that’s not seasonal in the UK!
Scurvy anybody?

Potatoes ??? Freely available ALL year round, and good to prevent scurvy.

 

[Nonna]

As far as I can see Uk farmers are mostly well off. Why else would they be complaining of a reduction of their I inheritance tax allowance to £1.3 million each? If they have to sell part of the farm to pay death duty it may allow younger farmers to enter the business.
A lot of “farmers” appear to be tenants to big land owners & never have the opportunity to own their own. This may hopefully change that.

The problem is that the figure at which Inheritance Tax is calculated is not just the value of the land & house. It includes all stock, machinery etc
It will hit most farmers & not the 500 odd that Labour bandy about.

Contrary to popular belief most farmers (not the Barley Barons or the rich owners who don't actually farm themselves) are asset rich but cash poor. This will mean land or whole farms will have to be sold & who will want to take them on with the new law? Young Farmers can't afford the purchase price.
A lot of the land could go for house building under new relaxed planning

All the farmers that I know look on themselves as custodians of their land & want to pass it on in a better state than they received it.

Fewer farms will mean more imports, higher food prices & no food security.
In this day & age this country should be aiming for food self-sufficiency not the opposite

 

[Bramidan]

These sorts of post are exactly why it's advocated not post them in this area. Take it to the Belly Locker, or the other place where they love to sit all day shovelling mud at each other. Please keep this section of Motorhome Fun for Motorhome matters.
Mike.

So if I’m replying to a post how would I take it to a different scenario ie the Belly Locker?
Happy to accept your expertise.

 

[enark]

Many business owners work the hours struggle for years on a pittance and still end up either going bankrupt or if. they eventually make a success and die death duties are due,for many success is maybe owning a truck or two and earning an n income less than they pay their employees
At the end of the day farm prices will rise we will pay a penny a kg more for our carrots,as with all taxation it is not the business owner that pays in the end it is the consumer, ultimately if they go bust still the consumer pays.

Hardly the same as farming though.

If we lose a few shops - so what

No farms and Russia, N Korea, China and whoever all goes wrong, were stuffed without our own agricultural supply.

So very short sighted, as expected by the student union debating society rejects we have in power

 

[enark]

Have you ever considered it’s a global market?
If it’s cheaper to buy Tomatoes etc from a warm productive country why wouldn’t we?
Let’s not eat anything that’s not seasonal in the UK!
Scurvy anybody?
Had a look at the motoerhomers enjoying wine on their travels?

Great to fly stuff in from across the globe eh? Not great for the climate

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[BouncyBoatFolk]

Hopefully,,, admin could move the thread across to the U-shaped lounge or the belly locker. I have them areas blocked out so don't see this sort of bickering. However, posters should be aware that there are valid points of view diametrically opposite to theirs.
Mike.

 

[A S R]

You’ll never find a poor farmer or a poor bookie .

I can assure you there are loads of poor farmers around.
I drive an HGV and have delivered to hundreds of farms in the last 35 years. There’s plenty around that are struggling and have done for a long while. They certainly don’t drive a new defender or Range Rover.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Great to fly stuff in from across the globe eh? Not great for the climate

Out of season, yes it does as it's cheaper than heating and lighting greenhouses in the UK.
Mike.

 

[Bramidan]

Great to fly stuff in from across the globe eh? Not great for the climate

But it’s what the consumers want to pay!
An example, if you want to buy a chicken to feed 4 or you want to buy a free range chicken that’s had a wonderful life, wandering about but eventually harvested what are you going to buy? I think and this a generalisation, but based on advertising, I believe the majority of purchasers will head to the supermarkets.
Food production is simply an industry, farmers simply are a part of the production side, we love our animals? I don’t think so, simply a factor of production.

 

[Gromett]

As far as I can see Uk farmers are mostly well off. Why else would they be complaining of a reduction of their I inheritance tax allowance to £1.3 million each? If they have to sell part of the farm to pay death duty it may allow younger farmers to enter the business.
A lot of “farmers” appear to be tenants to big land owners & never have the opportunity to own their own. This may hopefully change that.

No it won't the land is now too expensive. It will be still be bought by the wealthy as the 20% for farmland is still lower than the 40% for other assets.

The other issue is, if you have to sell a chunk of land to pay this, you will have less land to farm and will be less profitable. You need a minimum base level to even break even.

This has done nothing but ensure only the richest will end up with farm land.

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[Northernraider]

This is why the UK is a joke


Most of the population belief the wealthy should be taxed more than the poor.

Then when a government brings in a plan to do thst people complain.

Property is wealth isn't it


And generational wealth is one of the worst kind of people who usually have sod all idea what it is to be poor or low income.

I still say that billionaires should not exsist in any form as its impossible to gather that amount of wealth without exploitation of others.

 

[Northernraider]

PERHAPS because if you stopped supplying your services, no-one would starve?
It's also interesting to note that you only need to work 5days a week to bring in a living wage and have the choice of what you do at the weekends.


I worked on my parents farm just after the last war, we were encouraged, by whatever way possible, to increase our vegetable crop by 3fold. We dug up hedges to increase acreage and deposited fertiliser and DDT like there was no tomorrow!

Was there talk then about IHT, not on your nelly!

Now Farmers are encouraged to plant hedges and trees and leaves areas fallow.

IF, shoppers were prepared to pay the cost, in Britain, of production instead of ALWAYS going for the cheapest, 80% of the seafood caught in Britain, would not be exported and 40% of potatoes and veg would not have to be ploughed back or discarded because they are the wrong size or shape for the supermarket.

It's not the Tax breaks that the Government MIGHT give the Farmer that's needs sorting out, it's the British attitude to manual labour!

IF farming was as lucrative as most people seem to think it is, why are not more people pursuing it as a career choice?

Fruit and veg and meat is expensive in the UK . And if you buy from a farmers market avoiding the middle Man ie supermarket you often pay even more.

So something isn't right.

 

[Northernraider]

And if doctors didn't do their job or lorry drivers or,or,or...but they all pay IHT FOR and no at a reduced rate.And aren't all given subsidies
Perhaps the reason more can't persue their desire to farm is because existing farmers seldom sell land meaning a high value is maintained further certainly in this area whenever land is offered for sale it is bought by other farms

Or housing developments

 

[Googlebot]

I also ignore the belly locker, I come here to read about motorhomes, though I do love a good thread like this to see who to ignore occasionally.

Never met a poor farmer, I also think the fact they are choosing the likes of Dyson, Farage and Clarkson to fight their battles makes them all look a bit daft.

My own view is the supermarkets could make a little less profit and pay them fairly. They should get a fair price for the food they produce.

As for the IHT argument, no sympathy from me. It only affects the richest and they still get preferential treatment then.

Don’t see anyone campaigning to reduce my tax bill……

 

[The Wino]

Why does everyone either want to tax all farmers over a certain level or none?
Is there anything wrong with appling full inheritance tax (( not the lower level introduced by the government) to anyone owning land worth over a certain amount say £10m. It would catch out a lot of the people using farms to avoid iht and smaller farmers would be unnafected. Does anyone believe it's actually wrong to include Clarkson, Dyson, Forage etc in iht as they have clearly tried to avoid it?

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[Northernraider]

I also ignore the belly locker, I come here to read about motorhomes, though I do love a good thread like this to see who to ignore occasionally.

Never met a poor farmer, I also think the fact they are choosing the likes of Dyson, Farage and Clarkson to fight their battles makes them all look a bit daft.

My own view is the supermarkets could make a little less profit and pay them fairly. They should get a fair price for the food they produce.

As for the IHT argument, no sympathy from me. It only affects the richest and they still get preferential treatment then.

Don’t see anyone campaigning to reduce my tax bill……

I agree it's the supermarkets that need sorting out as they're making billions in profits overcharging us and underpaying suppliers.

But then smaller shops all want to be bigger shops so they're not better.


Everyone wants to get rich quick nowadays , no one seems happy to just make a comfortable living.

I've no desire to be wealthy .....none whatsoever.

 

[Bramidan]

Why does everyone either want to tax all farmers over a certain level or none?
Is there anything wrong with appling full inheritance tax (( not the lower level introduced by the government) to anyone owning land worth over a certain amount say £10m. It would catch out a lot of the people using farms to avoid iht and smaller farmers would be unnafected. Does anyone believe it's actually wrong to include Clarkson, Dyson, Forage etc in iht as they have clearly tried to avoid it?

This is the exactly the point, Thatcher introduced it in 1984, you guess why. Vested interests?

 

[The Wino]

This is the exactly the point, Thatcher introduced it in 1984, you guess why. Vested interests?

I think there could be general agreement with what I suggested quite a few posts before. No iht on the first million. No iht up to £5m as long as they continue to run the farm for 10 years. Iht straight away after that limit. Does anyone think that's unfair?

 

[iandsm]

Tractors causing mayhem on the roads today on our way to Cariñena heading for the sun.

Good lick to them, the inconvenience they might cause is nothing compared to what has been done to them

 

[jerryz]

No Farmers = No Food ,, Let starmer and reeves drive them all out of business , then either the Oligarchs will run it and we will all be poor and ripped off or They collectivise the land Like Stalin & Mao and we will all die of starvation like the 100m chinese and the 50 m russians did ...your choice ....

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