Fair use of electricity on sites

[eddie]

€12 flat rate per night, €7 deposit for the card. I can't remember the unit cost per kWh for the electric, but it was reasonable.
The fun challenge with the shower was to beat your previous days time and hence spend less!
I reckon I averaged €18-€20 per night over 3 nights. The sites I used were in Sinsheim (great technik museum nearby,) and Celle. Sinsheim was completely autonomous, with inter phone assistance if required, whereas Celle had a manned office from 08:30-17:00.
Such a simple system to use, and as I said in my original post, you only paid for what chargeable services you used, and got any balance refunded before you left.

That sounds great, but you go to a £20 a night site, your showers can be as long and luxurious as you want, you get a dedicated hard standing, free WiFi 10amp hook up and a warden on hand in case of need, which the majority of people want and expect.

I agree, that fully automated sites will one day be the norm, I just stayed four nights in London at the Plaza, looking at Westminster from my room, and didn’t speak to anyone from the hotel till I asked for a beer late this first night, but I doubt that tens thousands of small hotels up and down the Country will be rewiring their rooms to facilitate this technology

Sadly I predict that getting pitches will become harder as more campsite owners have to put up with grief from customers who expect a bespoke tariff for their £15-£20 a night, “Why should I pay for a dog/awning/tent/car/child/gazebo/trailer/late departure/early arrival/Sisters family visiting for the day ( delete as necessary lol)

As I alluded to earlier there is a huge demand for sites to simply cash in and allow management companies to fill the pitches with mobile homes and sell / rent them. There is a member on here that would put over 50 Bell Tents on my campsite tomorrow if I let him and run the lot, allowing me to take a good income, fire the four wardens, and close for the Winter, which ironically is our costliest Quarter

 

[Wabs]

i’m well aware of how the adle heating works but this thread is about electric , if I was to do what you suggested I would be paying for EHU & then using my gas to save using the electricity I’ve already paid for

I was just trying to help,,

 

[funflair]

I recently wrote to the Caravan and MH Club sustainability team on this very subject pointing out that compulsory use or at least payment for electricity was not very green when a lot of Motorhomes now had solar panels and lithium batteries and could be self sufficient.

Reply below

Dear Mr Hansell,

Thank you for your email regarding your concerns and I was interested to read how you have converted your outfit to be self sufficient and more kind on the environment.

The Club have learnt from the current data we hold, including that from our member survey is that non electric pitches are not often in high demand and quite often a last choice for many members. That said, we know this information doesn't speak for everyone and that members are starting to make use of sustainable energy - of which we know will only become a more popular option as technology with outfits and equipment continues to develop.

The Club has spent much time looking at how we can reduce the consumption of energy on sites; of course we are always looking at ways to save money and be more efficient but also because we cannot sustain the growth in the use of power on site for the foreseeable future, there is only so much supply. With members using more and more power to heat and cool awnings, fill their vans with electrical gadgets (a home from home) and with the predicted growth in Electric vehicles we have to find a way to manage it. We are keen to look at how we can diversify pitches to suit different needs and are currently looking at how we can run a metering trial and implement non electric pitches when we re-develop sites. Whilst we can not adjust our pricing policy at this time, it might be helpful, if you haven't considered these before to explore our wider network of Affiliated Sites and Certified Locations that could offer non electric pitches in the locations you may be looking to stay where our sites do not provide an economy pitch.

We are also keen to balance our operation in our natural settings and are encouraging more and more areas of bio-diversity around our sites. We are now working with Green Tourism and also have a Sustainability Advisor working with us, to ensure we are doing all we can to minimise our footprint and impact on the environment.

I am sorry we are not delivering the immediate change you are looking for, but this issue is very much on our radar, as I hope my comments confirm.

 

[eddie]

I recently wrote to the Caravan and MH Club sustainability team on this very subject pointing out that compulsory use or at least payment for electricity was not very green when a lot of Motorhomes now had solar panels and lithium batteries and could be self sufficient.

Reply below

Dear Mr Hansell,

Thank you for your email regarding your concerns and I was interested to read how you have converted your outfit to be self sufficient and more kind on the environment.

The Club have learnt from the current data we hold, including that from our member survey is that non electric pitches are not often in high demand and quite often a last choice for many members. That said, we know this information doesn't speak for everyone and that members are starting to make use of sustainable energy - of which we know will only become a more popular option as technology with outfits and equipment continues to develop.

The Club has spent much time looking at how we can reduce the consumption of energy on sites; of course we are always looking at ways to save money and be more efficient but also because we cannot sustain the growth in the use of power on site for the foreseeable future, there is only so much supply. With members using more and more power to heat and cool awnings, fill their vans with electrical gadgets (a home from home) and with the predicted growth in Electric vehicles we have to find a way to manage it. We are keen to look at how we can diversify pitches to suit different needs and are currently looking at how we can run a metering trial and implement non electric pitches when we re-develop sites. Whilst we can not adjust our pricing policy at this time, it might be helpful, if you haven't considered these before to explore our wider network of Affiliated Sites and Certified Locations that could offer non electric pitches in the locations you may be looking to stay where our sites do not provide an economy pitch.

We are also keen to balance our operation in our natural settings and are encouraging more and more areas of bio-diversity around our sites. We are now working with Green Tourism and also have a Sustainability Advisor working with us, to ensure we are doing all we can to minimise our footprint and impact on the environment.

I am sorry we are not delivering the immediate change you are looking for, but this issue is very much on our radar, as I hope my comments confirm.

What a polite way of saying ’Don’t come’ LOL

 

[funflair]

What a polite way of saying ’Don’t come’ LOL

Yes I got that but also of interest was their comments re "more and more power and electric vehicles" and the suggestion that they are going to start trials of metered supply, although I would not be surprised if there was a standing charge to cover infrastructure costs so might not be for people who don't want electric.

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[eddie]

Yes I got that but also of interest was their comments re "more and more power and electric vehicles" and the suggestion that they are going to start trials of metered supply, although I would not be surprised if there was a standing charge to cover infrastructure costs.

The problem is bigger though. Municipal sites as described above by woldsunlight have access to decent power infrastructure, as they tend to be in urban areas.

We are three miles out from Taunton, the County Town, so not a backwater and we paid about £40k to have a three phase electrical supply brought to Cornish Farm

Even with this, we have a finite supply, and although we wired each pitch for 16 amp, we ‘try’ to limit the supply to 10amp per pitch, so even thinking about putting charging points on pitches will invoke a massive capital injection, and even if we were prepared to spend the money, I am not sure being in the sticks the local electrical supply could provide the necessary power.

Would it bring additional business to the site? Probably not, so major upheaval, massive costs no appreciable increase in business so not worth it.

Also, what many people forget about their campers (my 17th one is currently on order so I lump everything as a camper ) is that we run them on extension leads so again it’s irrelevant how good the campsite supply is, using your domestic 2Kw kettle (8amps) when your Alde is supplying your heating and how water, say on 2Kw (8amps) whilst your AES fridge has switched to mains, and you have all your lights on, so the AC-DC Charger is buzzing away, along with your Dyson rechargeable, your phone chargers and you plug in air fresheners

So without discussing Halogen ovens, Remoskas, induction grills, Dyson hairdryers, and toasters, people are likely to wake up dead if they aren’t considering how much they are putting through a 10-25m extension lead (hook up)

 

[funflair]

The problem is bigger though. Municipal sites as described above by woldsunlight have access to decent power infrastructure, as they tend to be in urban areas.

We are three miles out from Taunton, the County Town, so not a backwater and we paid about £40k to have a three phase electrical supply brought to Cornish Farm

Even with this, we have a finite supply, and although we wired each pitch for 16 amp, we ‘try’ to limit the supply to 10amp per pitch, so even thinking about putting charging points on pitches will invoke a massive capital injection, and even if we were prepared to spend the money, I am not sure being in the sticks the local electrical supply could provide the necessary power.

Would it bring additional business to the site? Probably not, so major upheaval, massive costs no appreciable increase in business so not worth it.

Also, what many people forget about their campers (my 17th one is currently on order so I lump everything as a camper ) is that we run them on extension leads so again it’s irrelevant how good the campsite supply is, using your domestic 2Kw kettle (8amps) when your Alde is supplying your heating and how water, say on 2Kw (8amps) whilst your AES fridge has switched to mains, and you have all your lights on, so the AC-DC Charger is buzzing away, along with your Dyson rechargeable, your phone chargers and you plug in air fresheners

So without discussing Halogen ovens, Remoskas, induction grills, Dyson hairdryers, and toasters, people are likely to wake up dead if they aren’t considering how much they are putting through a 10-25m extension lead (hook up)

You should offer a 5A supply and then sell everybody a network compensating inverter/charger, win win

 

[cyberyacht]

funflair quoted CAMC "With members using more and more power to heat and cool awnings,"

They could make a start being green by banning this inefficient practice.

 

[hja]

During my trip to Germany in December 2021 I stayed on a couple of municipal motorhome sites that had a chargecard system - you loaded up credit, and paid for electric and showers. There was a flat rate per night and per person, and toilets were free, but everything was accessed using the chargecard via a card reader to allow entry. The shower was pretty neat - 10 cents charged for every 20 seconds of water flow (there was an on/off button on the shower, and you placed your card on a shelf by the reader, and it automatically deducted the money as you showered.)
Equally, you loaded up credit at the electric plinth to your allocated hook-up, and if you had credit left at the end of your stay you could download it back to the card. At checkout, you simply chose the option to 'checkout and return credit' and having received your balance, you drove up to the barrier, inserted your card (which it then retained as you were leaving) - barrier up, and away you go.
Simple, straightforward pay for what you use - we could do with more set ups like that in this country.

Works because pay on leaving not on arrival.

 

[Madmag]

Stayed at the MCC site at Tewkesbury. Next to us a very new set up of large caravan, equally large car. Both looked new. Had all the gadgets, pull out awning with full set table and chairs, BBQ et. then bought out a 3 bar electric heater which they turned in full outside even while they were in the van ! They did eventually eat outside next to heater. After seeing this on for almost an hour OH asked them if they ‘were for real’ with heater on in open air. He was told to “ Do his thing and let them do theirs” or words to that effect, unfortunately we left early before office opened next day otherwise might have mentioned it. Not sure it would have made any difference. Did have photos but have deleted them.

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[gus-lopez]

I wonder how much that just £62 adds up to when fitting and certification etc is added on

If i owned a site I wouldn't even offer electric.

In fact I'm afraid it's the future, it's no longer a case of 'if' but 'when' you will need to install metered EHU points.

As above

Gone are the days when a caravan or a motorhome had a few lights and that was it, now they have hot plates, electric kettles, TV's, computers and arctic level heating systems, all of which use a lot of electricity.

I would tell them,hard luck ,you're camping.If you want all mod cons go to a hotel or stay at home.

ou will soon have people arriving with Electric cars who will also need to plug in. If you have not seen this yet, you probably will this year.

they can do one as well. no facilities offered fror charging & a huge fee if you run out & recovery is required to enter to remove the tat.

and the wardens not using car tyres on the fire pits!

I hope you're joking.

Shows how much energy costs on a new contract.

I was just reading last nioght that in spain the cost of electricity purchased by the power companies has risen 700% in exactly 12 months.

funflair quoted CAMC "With members using more and more power to heat and cool awnings,"

They could make a start being green by banning this inefficient practice.

They should also have banned 'patio heaters ' the day they were invented.

 

[wp1234]

It is human nature that a flat rate charge for power results in excess use. When I see a pricing difference of even £4 a night, let alone more for pitches with hook up to non hook up, and yet I know that my home use of power (at least until the recent crisis) was around £40 a month, my brain says someone is making money from me and so I'm not going to behave as I would at home and turn stuff off. The brain says I've paid for it. Not very environmentally friendly.

But a problem for sites who do want to meter is the added hassle of how to collect that. Do you have pre-payment cards for which you need deposits? Coin meters are old hat and nobody carries cash anymore. Do you put barriers on the gates to stop people driving off until the meter is read and paid for?

Coin meters are pretty common in Spain and I don’t see anything wrong with that as long as you know about it so you can bring euro/ pound . mind you if you heat an awning you will need bags of them

 

[WoldsSunlight]

Works because pay on leaving not on arrival.

Not really - you load up credit on arrival, it deducts what you use from your balance as you go along, and any credit left at the end of your stay is refunded.
Interestingly, you also have the option to refund any credit for the electric, or 'donate' it to the next user.

 

[Richard Mason]

It is human nature that a flat rate charge for power results in excess use. When I see a pricing difference of even £4 a night, let alone more for pitches with hook up to non hook up, and yet I know that my home use of power (at least until the recent crisis) was around £40 a month, my brain says someone is making money from me and so I'm not going to behave as I would at home and turn stuff off. The brain says I've paid for it. Not very environmentally friendly.

But a problem for sites who do want to meter is the added hassle of how to collect that. Do you have pre-payment cards for which you need deposits? Coin meters are old hat and nobody carries cash anymore. Do you put barriers on the gates to stop people driving off until the meter is read and paid for?

When we owned a CL we charged a flat rate and yes I think some people abused then5rust but don’t forget we charged the same in summer when not much elec5ricity was used at all.

Thought for the day.. My supplier Octopus only supply renewable generated electricity but have quoted me a 123% increase. This is I assume based on all the other oil based companies price increases BUT it’s renewable electricity will cost no more next year than last to harvest or if it does that increase is covered by its 5% increase in daily charges. Are OCTOPUS ENERGY guilty of robbing customers or simply riding the wave of criminality the others are surfing in?

 

[Richard Mason]

Just watched a Vlog about CSs and CLs, and other smaller private sites. The Vlogger suggested that, with electricity costs rising, we should considerate to the site owner and not “waste” their provision, especially in the winter. He quoted cases of guests who had electric heaters in their awnings and others who have the view “I’ve paid for it and so I am going to get my money’s worth”. He suggested that such practices will result in site closures, at least in the colder months, higher site fees, or electricity meters being installed which will have to be paid for by higher fees.
I am probably guilty as I always use my electric ring on sites and, in colder weather, leave the heating on a low electric setting when out for the day.

When we owned a CL we charged a flat rate and yes I think some people abused the trust but don’t forget we charged the same in summer when not much electricity was used at all.

Thought for the day.. My supplier Octopus only supply renewable generated electricity but have quoted me a 123% increase. This is I assume based on all the other oil based companies price increases BUT it’s renewable electricity will cost no more next year than last to harvest or if it does that increase is covered by its 5% increase in daily charges. Are OCTOPUS ENERGY guilty of robbing customers or simply riding the wave of criminality the others are surfing on?

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[David and Sally]

When we owned a CL we charged a flat rate and yes I think some people abused the trust but don’t forget we charged the same in summer when not much electricity was used at all.

Thought for the day.. My supplier Octopus only supply renewable generated electricity but have quoted me a 123% increase. This is I assume based on all the other oil based companies price increases BUT it’s renewable electricity will cost no more next year than last to harvest or if it does that increase is covered by its 5% increase in daily charges. Are OCTOPUS ENERGY guilty of robbing customers or simply riding the wave of criminality the others are surfing on?

You answered your own question there.

And, how do they ensure that the leccy you get is renewable? Is it a different colour?

 

[Minxy]

When we owned a CL we charged a flat rate and yes I think some people abused then5rust but don’t forget we charged the same in summer when not much elec5ricity was used at all.

Thought for the day.. My supplier Octopus only supply renewable generated electricity but have quoted me a 123% increase. This is I assume based on all the other oil based companies price increases BUT it’s renewable electricity will cost no more next year than last to harvest or if it does that increase is covered by its 5% increase in daily charges. Are OCTOPUS ENERGY guilty of robbing customers or simply riding the wave of criminality the others are surfing in?

Octopus are only an intermediary, they don't actually produce the power so they will have to pay the going rate regardless of how it is produced. It's the producers of 'green' energy that are making it more expensive in order to maximise their profits which they will do due to a much higher price in the market overall as the major supplier(s) up their price ... supply and demand at it worst!

 

[Gaston aires]

Electric cars, Ebikes and scooters. Where does it end ? Meters with credit card payment is surely the answer. I bet people wouldn’t leave the fan heating the awning if those charges applied.
Maybe 5 amp max like on the Continental sites ?
Phil

 

[Kasey]

I used a campsite in Cambridgeshire a decade ago that had metered electricity. It worked very easily. Entered site reception. Issued with pitch number and a card to put in the electric meter post. We paid to have £5 worth of electric on the card and if we needed to top up the card we just went to reception and topped it up. Simples.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Stayed at the MCC site at Tewkesbury. Next to us a very new set up of large caravan, equally large car. Both looked new. Had all the gadgets, pull out awning with full set table and chairs, BBQ et. then bought out a 3 bar electric heater which they turned in full outside even while they were in the van ! They did eventually eat outside next to heater. After seeing this on for almost an hour OH asked them if they ‘were for real’ with heater on in open air. He was told to “ Do his thing and let them do theirs” or words to that effect, unfortunately we left early before office opened next day otherwise might have mentioned it. Not sure it would have made any difference. Did have photos but have deleted them.

Well I would have to agree with the other people, what business is it of yours as to what they do and how they do it,
You have an agreement with the site to pay your fee inc electric.
I can see your point about wasting power and overall shared cost,
But then again would you say to a man driving a 6ltr car your wasting energy.
Or someone with a 40ft motorhome it the likes of you that increase site fees.

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[Gaston aires]

When we owned a CL we charged a flat rate and yes I think some people abused the trust but don’t forget we charged the same in summer when not much electricity was used at all.

Thought for the day.. My supplier Octopus only supply renewable generated electricity but have quoted me a 123% increase. This is I assume based on all the other oil based companies price increases BUT it’s renewable electricity will cost no more next year than last to harvest or if it does that increase is covered by its 5% increase in daily charges. Are OCTOPUS ENERGY guilty of robbing customers or simply riding the wave of criminality the others are surfing on?

Same here. I will not be entering into another deal with them. I looked at the fixed deal and it’s twice as much as the non fixed deal? Daily rate going up 15% as well ? Flagrant profiteering.
How come their renewable green energy has increased so much ? What’s that got to do with gas prices.
Phil

 

[Conal]

Steve and Denise I fully agree re: mpg for 6ltr vehicle, but there is is research to suggest that 2-3ltr vehicle is more fuel economic than a 1-2ltr one.
On an associated topic my 1963 Morris Minor does a measured 44mpg, the same as my wife’s 2013 Kia Rio ; although I think here’s is friendlier to the planet.

 

[hja]

A number of companies, including Octopus, say they are renewables only. But on their web site they explain the issue. You dont get just renewable energy, you get whatever the grid is supplying at the time. But they invest in only renewable energy.: From Octopus web site:
"We work out how much power our customers are taking out of the grid annually (a mix of power sources, from wind to fossil fuels) and ensure an equal amount of renewable energy is added into the system in its place over the year. Not only does this make your electricity effectively Net Zero – it gradually helps make the energy system greener for everyone!"
Other Fully renewable companies do the same. And the Green tariffs work in the same way.
And as for the tariffs available currently - I think people like Martin Lewis the money guy, say at present you are better on the basic tariff with the price cap. Although that may/may not change after April with the new cap.
The energy market is hugely complex. And our bills are not just made up of the energy price. As a totally electric household I have to pay some levy related to domestic gas!

 

[starquake]

As an owners of a van with both gas and electric heating, and a supplimental EV car if we bring it -> I'm all for lowering site fees by > £3 a day and just metering, and charging sensible commercial rates on the electric (ie, not these agreed 12 mo ago, ridicolous prices rates, CURRENT commerical pricing, ie, 30 ish p a kwh.

Why?

As a EV owner public charging on a rapid is 60-75p a kwh, on a non-rapid, 40-55p (which is a mid speed charger). If I'm tricke charging the car at 6A and it taking 50 hours to charge, I'd 100% pay above rates to save on rapid fees. When we last went to Somerset chargers were VERY busy (commercial rapids) and this would save us money.

At moment we only plug in if site owner agrees (we have 16A commando charger, a 32A commando, and a normal plug depending on site availability of power) and draw what they say we can draw, max of 6A if via Van, 16A if on own 16A, 10A over the16A if thats the rated breaker, or 32A if we get a rare 32A commando or type2 charger.

 

[iandsm]

Just watched a Vlog about CSs and CLs, and other smaller private sites. The Vlogger suggested that, with electricity costs rising, we should considerate to the site owner and not “waste” their provision, especially in the winter. He quoted cases of guests who had electric heaters in their awnings and others who have the view “I’ve paid for it and so I am going to get my money’s worth”. He suggested that such practices will result in site closures, at least in the colder months, higher site fees, or electricity meters being installed which will have to be paid for by higher fees.
I am probably guilty as I always use my electric ring on sites and, in colder weather, leave the heating on a low electric setting when out for the day.

Why leave the heating on when you are out. It only takes a short while to warm up when you return surely.

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[Alsatian]

Why leave the heating on when you are out. It only takes a short while to warm up when you return surely.

Similarly, why do some people leave the hot water on all day when most of the day they're out?

 

[David and Sally]

Similarly, why do some people leave the hot water on all day when most of the day they're out?

Because once hot the cost of keeping it hot is minimal and you return to a full hot tank for a shower or whatever. Sometime I switch it off if I'm feeling all environmentally friendly.

 

[JJ]

Similarly, why do some people leave the hot water on all day when most of the day they're out?

... because I keep forgetting to turn it off...

JJ

 

[starquake]

Because once hot the cost of keeping it hot is minimal and you return to a full hot tank for a shower or whatever. Sometime I switch it off if I'm feeling all environmentally friendly.

Fact it also takes 20 mins on 2kw to heat, and near 40minson 1kw -> means I'm also in the leave hot camp if we plan evening showers between the washing up and the showers.... It can legit take longer in our van to heat the water for washing up than cooking the dinner takes -> so you have to start teh water before dinner. We usually use a timer though to save the electric for the site now familar though for the morning showers.

 

[Gellyneck]

Sometime I switch it off if I'm feeling all environmentally friendly.

Or frisky and a cold shower is required!

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