EU consultation on increasing permitted weight for standard licence to 4250 kg?

[The Wino]

I would have thought if a uk lic allows up to 4250 and the eu accept a uk lic as they do now the eu accepts you can drive up to 4250 in the eu or is that to simple. Bill

It must depend on what the EU allows I know for quite a while in the past some countries allowed heavier lgv,s than we did also in France you can drive a microcar without a license but not in the UK

 

[68c]

Nooo - I want to keep the cheap tax on my 4250kg van

Exactly, cannot see the lower road tax for heavier vans continuing if the 3500kg limit is raised. Having lost my C1 and downplating I will have mixed feelings about that. I assume some senior minister has a heavy van, once he stops using it the tax will soar.

 

[DDJC]

This sounds like one of the better ideas from the EU, probably in anticipation of the increased MGW weight that will result in the likely switch to fully EV. Hopefully it will benefit motorhomers by extending into the leisure sector, not just light commercial.

The detail revolves around the Vienna convention attempts to standardise many driver and driving issues. This includes driving codes. Currently, the convention says about Category B: :

Motor vehicles, other than those in category A, having a permissible maximum mass not exceeding 3,500 kg and not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat; or motor vehicles of category В coupled to a trailer the permissible maximum mass of which does not exceed 750 kg; or motor vehicles of category В coupled to a trailer the permissible maximum mass of which exceeds 750 kg but does not exceed the unladen mass of the motor vehicle, where the combined permissible maximum mass of the vehicles so coupled does not exceed 3,500 kg

When you drill down, it says (as we all know) that a standard B car licence is (nearly always) limited to 3500kg. The UK licensing categories largely match that of Vienna. If as the OP suggests, the EU unilaterally changes the maximum permissible mass to 4250kg for B Category, then that doesn't automatically change what is stated by Vienna.

What DOES change is explained by the Convention statement: "Contracting parties shall recognize as valid for driving in their territories any domestic driving licence drawn up in their national language or in one of their national languages, or, if not drawn up in such a language, accompanied by a certified translation;

Which basically means that an EU licence would be valid here. I.e. if a French, German, Estonian, etc, driver has a B Class licence, then they would be automatically permitted to drive a 4250kb vehicle on a B class licence, over here. If that happens, UK drivers with just a Cat B licence could still be limited to 3500kg in UK and abroad, but EU drivers with a cat B would be able to drive a 4250kg vehicle in UK and in EU. Pretty untenable.

There are three outcomes.
1) the UK legislates to have parity with the EU on licence categories
2) the Vienna Convention is updated with 4250kg as the new max mass for B class licences
3) the UK stubbornly refuses to update its legislation and disadvantages UK drivers

Can't see 3, so this is good news for motorhomers.

 

[Coolcats]

I would have thought if a uk lic allows up to 4250 and the eu accept a uk lic as they do now the eu accepts you can drive up to 4250 in the eu or is that to simple. Bill

interesting thought, I think I have seen that cars towed with A Frames are legal in the UK but not in the EU although some seem to do it.

 

[KatrinK]

I passed my C1 a couple of weeks back and my instructor told me that the DVLA is planning to add the C1 allowance for EVERYONE that is getting or already has the normal B license within the next year, maybe even before the end of this year.

If this happens, if I understand this correctly, you just send in your old license for an updated one which then shows the C1 row and believe that covers you for the EU too (can’t see why it wouldn’t).

Personally, I am not sure it’s the greatest of ideas. I really appreciated practising with an instructor and learning from him for a couple of days (but could have done without the nerve-racking test!)

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[The Wino]

I passed my C1 a couple of weeks back and my instructor told me that the DVLA is planning to add the C1 allowance for EVERYONE that is getting or already has the normal B license within the next year, maybe even before the end of this year.

If this happens, if I understand this correctly, you just send in your old license for an updated one which then shows the C1 row and believe that covers you for the EU too (can’t see why it wouldn’t).

Personally, I am not sure it’s the greatest of ideas. I really appreciated practising with an instructor and learning from him for a couple of days (but could have done without the nerve-racking test!)

Thatr sort of makes sense as the dished them out free to us oldies

 

[Speve]

Thatr sort of makes sense as the dished them out free to us oldies

Although I’m an oldie and just renewed my C1 I must confess I’m a little on the fence with issuing C1 licence to all in the future my reasoning is that when we passed our tests the roads were not quite as busy and also vehicles were probably not quite as powerful and big as what is on the roads today? However the road system is supposedly better(that’s another debate?) and vehicles have much more in the way of safety features so I think in all it balances out?
So good luck to new drivers if they do get their C1 automatically they will have to learn as we did to drive larger heavier vehicles safely with competence without extra training? Glad I got mine when driving was a bit less stressful than it is today.
As for the standard of driving today it seems there are lots of drivers out there who don’t think they should indicate where they are going expect others to be mind readers? Also think they have the right of way wherever they drive and get very angry at other drivers for no other reason than they think they are being impeded or inconvenienced?
There are also those out there that think anyone over 65 should not be driving anyway? I do think that us oldies should be kept a check on but as long as we are safe to drive allowed to carry on

 

[The Wino]

Although I’m an oldie and just renewed my C1 I must confess I’m a little on the fence with issuing C1 licence to all in the future my reasoning is that when we passed our tests the roads were not quite as busy and also vehicles were probably not quite as powerful and big as what is on the roads today? However the road system is supposedly better(that’s another debate?) and vehicles have much more in the way of safety features so I think in all it balances out?
So good luck to new drivers if they do get their C1 automatically they will have to learn as we did to drive larger heavier vehicles safely with competence without extra training? Glad I got mine when driving was a bit less stressful than it is today.
As for the standard of driving today it seems there are lots of drivers out there who don’t think they should indicate where they are going expect others to be mind readers? Also think they have the right of way wherever they drive and get very angry at other drivers for no other reason than they think they are being impeded or inconvenienced?
There are also those out there that think anyone over 65 should not be driving anyway? I do think that us oldies should be kept a check on but as long as we are safe to drive allowed to carry on

But as an oldie I could have got my license in 1978 have driven nothing since and jump in a 5 t motorhome today!. Perhaps we need a revalidation regeme say every 10 years up to age 70 then increasingly frequent. It won't happen as I suspect the reason for extending the C1 is a shortage of examiners

 

[Speve]

But as an oldie I could have got my license in 1978 have driven nothing since and jump in a 5 t motorhome today!. Perhaps we need a revalidation regeme say every 10 years up to age 70 then increasingly frequent. It won't happen as I suspect the reason for extending the C1 is a shortage of examiners

I would not argue with that, in my case starting work 1967/8 and 1970 on passing my test I worked in the building industry and was required to drive large vehicles as part of the job which I believe was a good introduction to vehicle weight,height and length awareness very useful when driving large Motorhomes

 

[DDJC]

If this happens, if I understand this correctly, you just send in your old license for an updated one which then shows the C1 row and believe that covers you for the EU too (can’t see why it wouldn’t).

This sounds good news.
If a C1 category is going to simply handed out, then yes, it is perfectly valid anywhere that observes the Vienna Convention. It was only ever a unilateral change by UK Govt to the Cat B wording that might have been deemed invalid in the EU.

Personally, I am not sure it’s the greatest of ideas. I really appreciated practising with an instructor and learning from him for a couple of days (but could have done without the nerve-racking test!)

I'm spilt on this. IMO, a test, or at least, a CBT-type familiarisation (or age qualification) is a must for anyone who has never driven anything longer than a saloon car. Last century, I drove a knackered dark green Bedford for my LGV lorry test. But for my coach licence, my OC just signed a declaration saying that I had driven coaches and that I was competent. I then got the coach PSV (D) category on grandad rights.

I would suggest that many people who currently drive a >3500kg, 7m motorhome on a B Licence should be given their Category C1 under grandad rights.

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[Speve]

I would suggest that many people who currently drive a >3500kg, 7m motorhome on a B Licence should be given their Category C1 under grandad rights

If they are already driving vehicles over 3500kg they already have their C1 do you mean folk who passed since I think it was 1998 should have grandfather rights automatically as earlier passers did?

 

[VXman]

Although I’m an oldie and just renewed my C1 I must confess I’m a little on the fence with issuing C1 licence to all in the future my reasoning is that when we passed our tests the roads were not quite as busy and also vehicles were probably not quite as powerful and big as what is on the roads today? However the road system is supposedly better(that’s another debate?) and vehicles have much more in the way of safety features so I think in all it balances out?
So good luck to new drivers if they do get their C1 automatically they will have to learn as we did to drive larger heavier vehicles safely with competence without extra training? Glad I got mine when driving was a bit less stressful than it is today.
As for the standard of driving today it seems there are lots of drivers out there who don’t think they should indicate where they are going expect others to be mind readers? Also think they have the right of way wherever they drive and get very angry at other drivers for no other reason than they think they are being impeded or inconvenienced?
There are also those out there that think anyone over 65 should not be driving anyway? I do think that us oldies should be kept a check on but as long as we are safe to drive allowed to carry on

Don't see the difference really. I bought my motorhome as a 3500kg and drove it. I then got an update to 4250kg and drive it. It is no different to drive. The skills needed relate to size not weight.

 

[Gromett]

I had to take my C1 to drive my 2nd motorhome because I have a post 97 license.

I think the training was priceless and am convinced that it was a good thing I got that training and was made to take the test. I don't think 7.5T licenses should be handed out to anyone who can pass a b license in a 900cc mini.

 

[ROCHESB]

It will be interesting to see if they will require medicals every 3 years for drivers over 70 if they do decide to increase the weight limits or give everyone C1?

 

[Jamesh]

If they are already driving vehicles over 3500kg they already have their C1 do you mean folk who passed since I think it was 1998 should have grandfather rights automatically as earlier passers did?

I drive a 4.1t converted minibus on a post 97 licence I had a moment when I saw the weight plate and rang sv tech on speed dial!

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[Speve]

I drive a 4.1t converted minibus on a post 97 licence I had a moment when I saw the weight plate and rang sv tech on speed dial!

Ah I see and I feel your anxt

 

[Speve]

Don't see the difference really. I bought my motorhome as a 3500kg and drove it. I then got an update to 4250kg and drive it. It is no different to drive. The skills needed relate to size not weight.

I think that driving something heavier does indeed need differing skills as you need to adjust your stopping distances and know that when pulling out of junctions you need extra time for weight and length.

 

[The Wino]

I think that driving something heavier does indeed need differing skills as you need to adjust your stopping distances and know that when pulling out of junctions you need extra time for weight and length.

I think there are so many variables not just the weight. Towing a very long glider trailer that started to wag anything over 50 to Poitiers a good few years ago was a challenge and it wasn't really that heavy!!

 

[VXman]

I think that driving something heavier does indeed need differing skills as you need to adjust your stopping distances and know that when pulling out of junctions you need extra time for weight and length.

To a certain extent but I think the difference needs to be significant. Mine was updated to 4250 but when fully loaded for a 2 month euro trip only came to 3800 anyway. I bet there are lots of 3500 vans out there unknowingly running that kind of weight anyway. You only need to add a couple of hefty human beings, a tank full of fuel, water etc and you are adding 400kg.

Also all cars/vans are not equal, for example a modern weighty Range Roger is a heavy beast but probably handles/brakes better than a year old Corsa a quarter of its weight.

So many variables...

 

[DDJC]

If they are already driving vehicles over 3500kg they already have their C1 do you mean folk who passed since I think it was 1998 should have grandfather rights automatically as earlier passers did?

Yes, sorry, I should have been more clear.

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[nicholsong]

If the 'B' Licence weight limit is increased in any country why should the source of power or what the weight consists of matter to the driver's ability to handle the vehicle?

The licence should apply to all who are entitled to it, whatever the vehicle, within the weight limits.

 

[Speve]

I think there are so many variables not just the weight. Towing a very long glider trailer that started to wag anything over 50 to Poitiers a good few years ago was a challenge and it wasn't really that heavy!!

I did not just say weight in my original post and agree it’s a combination of lots of different things however they all add up to a big difference between a saloon car and a 7.5m Motorhome at 4500kg

 

[nicholsong]

I had been driving professionally for a number of years but only on my 'B' Licence.

One day I pointed out to an agency that I had C1.

A couple of days later I got assigned to a job, which was on a removals pantechnicon. As readers will appreciate they are built for volume not weight, so have v. large dimensions to accommodate the volume.

The job was to pick-up in a suburban street in Worcester Park, London, which entailed backing into a driveway starting between two rows of parked cars. I got it in in two bites.

Never worried about dimensions of a vehicle again.

 

[DDJC]

interesting thought, I think I have seen that cars towed with A Frames are legal in the UK but not in the EU although some seem to do it.

There is a million threads on this, but basically:

Signatories to the Vienna Convention (which includes the EU and nearly every country in Europe) state that if a vehicle or set up is legal in the driver's country, then it is deemed legal in all signatory countries - even if if it is defined as illegal under an individual country's national laws.

but

A Frames are NOT actually legal in UK (or Rep of Ireland). It is simply that they are not illegal. Therefore the use of them is not covered by the Vienna Convention, so the laws of an individual country prevail. In most of the EU, the use of a towing system that needs all four wheels to be on the road is only permitted by licensed recovery vehicles.

(I have an adapted car and an A Frame for it. The dealer lied through his back teeth to me about its legality outside of the UK. My fault for not clarifying the law, I suppose)

 

[jongood]

I passed my C1 a couple of weeks back and my instructor told me that the DVLA is planning to add the C1 allowance for EVERYONE that is getting or already has the normal B license within the next year, maybe even before the end of this year.

If this happens, if I understand this correctly, you just send in your old license for an updated one which then shows the C1 row and believe that covers you for the EU too (can’t see why it wouldn’t).

Personally, I am not sure it’s the greatest of ideas. I really appreciated practising with an instructor and learning from him for a couple of days (but could have done without the nerve-racking test!)

Thanks for sharing but what a mess that would be. Following on from the trailer farce. And the driver CPC cumulatively adding increasing numbers of inexperienced younger drivers in larger vehicles onto ever busier roads.

As your post shows, you appreciated the extra tuition and knowledge you gained by taking further training to ensble you to drive a vehicle that can be very different to the driving school cars ( although I do wonder why you didnt take the C instead?)

Im a big fan of retesting, There are some truly dreadful drivers on our roads and they cause all sorts of problems, more should be done to identify them and help them to improve their skills and focus.

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[Tio64]

"And wouldn’t it be ironic if , despite the claims of Rees-Mogg & co, we ended up with less freedoms as a result of leaving the EU!"

Don't understand this bit, we got massively less freedoms from the moment we left. My red passport allowed free access to 27 countries, my black one doesn't.

Rees Mogg simply wanted to preserve his off shore, tax dodging investments. And he's going to lower standards for UK citizens as far as he can.

Who knows, maybe the UK will return to allowing us to drive 7.5 tonnes on car licences, as we used to.

 

[TeaBiscuit]

"And wouldn’t it be ironic if , despite the claims of Rees-Mogg & co, we ended up with less freedoms as a result of leaving the EU!"

Don't understand this bit, we got massively less freedoms from the moment we left. My red passport allowed free access to 27 countries, my black one doesn't.

Rees Mogg simply wanted to preserve his off shore, tax dodging investments. And he's going to lower standards for UK citizens as far as he can.

Who knows, maybe the UK will return to allowing us to drive 7.5 tonnes on car licences, as we used to.

7.5T would be nice! Could have some big batteries. Though, no manufacturer would make something specifically for the UK market...

Freedoms - sour point for me. My occupation requires a licence. Before it was valid in the EU. Now, I'm limited to the UK, however, EU licence holders are free to work in the EU AND the UK. Have been totally stuffed. Government isn't interested, why would they be? Brexit wasn't ever for our benefit, it was for theirs.

 

[TDub49]

Wow. The 'B' word mentioned more than once and the 'C' word not even hinted at. Could it be the gloss is wearing thin now?

 

[jongood]

Keep on with brexit referenecs and you will get the thread removed.

 

[Larrynwin]

"And wouldn’t it be ironic if , despite the claims of Rees-Mogg & co, we ended up with less freedoms as a result of leaving the EU!"

Don't understand this bit, we got massively less freedoms from the moment we left. My red passport allowed free access to 27 countries, my black one doesn't.

Rees Mogg simply wanted to preserve his off shore, tax dodging investments. And he's going to lower standards for UK citizens as far as he can.

Who knows, maybe the UK will return to allowing us to drive 7.5 tonnes on car licences, as we used to.

Is this a political thread ??

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