Electrical Issues with Hobby T500: Seeking Solutions (3 Viewers)

[PlacidoD]

There I was enjoying a nice cold cider and surfacing the Net with the the blinds closed ready for bed on a site in Fishguard when the lights went out. Anyway I carried on surfing and enjoying the cider before investigating the problem.

Needless to say it is raining and my only torch turned out to have flat batteries!

Symptoms:
All lighting is out even though running through two different fuses.
Mains sockets were working (Kettle could be boiled and PC being charged. So unless by some bizarre means the van has an inverter I did not know about I still had partial mains power)
Checked the trip switches in the garage. Both OK.
Checked the 20 amp fused - Both OK
Checked the EHU at the site post - No sign of problems there

Then I noticed that the switch on the Panel over the door was out. Pressing that restored the lights. Magic! Problem solved - NOT!!!. The lights are now tripping out every few minutes but I still have 13 amp/240 volt power

I have turned off most of the lights but still it is tripping out and I appear to have lost my Truma (gas only) when tripped out.

So it is a problem apparently affecting 12V only. In the morning I will disconnect the EHU and see if the lights will work off the auxiliary battery. I will also set the fridge to run on gas to see if that sorts things.

Any suggestions as to the nature of the problem and a solution?
As I say there is penetrating drizzly rain atm.
I have swapped EHU connections but that makes no difference.

Currently (No pun intended!) when I press to reset the button top right in the photo the led alongside flashes before tripping out again a few minutes later.

Tomorrow is a dry day. Fingers crossed the problem will then go away and I can certainly dry off the EHU plug and socket.
I am on this site one more night (and can get torch batteries tomorrow) but I am on my way to France in 3 weeks and need this sorting by then!!

All advice appreciated! Currently I am completely in the dark (That pun was intended!)

Chris

 

[1967bowesj]

Are the lights that trip out on 240v?

 

[DBK]

If its only 12 volt lights tripping it has nothing to do with the EHU, especially if you still have 240v coming into the vehicle.

Might be a faulty light somewhere. Try turning them all off then turn them on one by one.

 

[autorouter]

What is the make/model of the 12V distribution/fusebox? Some of them have things called polyfuses, which are self-resetting fuses. They cut out if the current is too high, then come back on after a few minutes if the power is removed and they cool down.

Don't forget your phone probably has a flashlight function, which can be useful in those circumstances, especially if you can keep it charged from the mains.

 

[PlacidoD]

"What is the make/model of the 12V distribution/fusebox?"

Thanks for the reply.

This is a 2007 van but It is remarkable well equipped. I have circuit breakers in the garage but the fuse box under the passenger seat uses the older/larger spade fuses which do not self-reset.

Even though it was on mains power I swapped the fridge to gas overnight but still it was cutting out when I went for a nocturnal pee with no other lights on. Will swap back to mains for the fridge after my morning cuppa.

Second port of call was to undo some tinkering from yesterday (I have a clanking noise from the hab area when changing up/accelerating when on the road. I thought it might have been a loose terminal block next to the fresh water tank under the half dinette seat and so wired that down with the sort of twisty wire you get on sliced loaves but later discovered it was the head rest on the half dinette seat so have undone the bread wire (definitely no short caused by the bread wire but the change of position of the terminal block might have disturbed contacts within and I waggled home all wires on this push fit terminal block for good measure)

Currently with no lights on the switchboard main on/off switch led (top right on the photo) is steady (It begins to blink about 60 seconds before tripping out.)

I was lit up like Blackpool tower when this problem started last night. I then switched off most lights having reset. My surmise was that there is a super sensitive cut out which once disturbed was inclined to trip too easily. But my middle of the night pee tends to rule that out. Hmnn!

There are no screws on the Hobby switchboard. I am wondering whether it is a push fit that I can gently prize off and inspect behind?

After breakfast and a shower I will explore further and dig out the hab instruction manual which I have somewhere on this PC (The original paper copy is in German!).

P.S. It does not help in these situations that I am red/green colour blind!!

Chris

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[Diabalo]

The bezel is probably clipped on so you will need to prise it off gently to reveal the screws that hold the panel.

 

[MichaelT]

Sounds like your battery may be dud as the lights will work off the 12v also fridge needs 12v for the control panel if you are saying it would notbwork on gas? If you have a multi meter can you disconnect the EHU so no charger on then test the habitation battery voltage.

 

[autorouter]

I have circuit breakers in the garage but the fuse box under the passenger seat

Looks like the mains and 12V are separate (they are often combined in one box). Do these boxes have any label on them that might be a make/model number?

Motorhome manufacturers don't usually make their own electrics, they buy in a system from electrical specialists like CBE, Schaudt, Nordelettronica etc. Those boxes will probably be found in many different makes of motorhome. Maybe you could post a picture, someone might recognise it.

Are you OK using a multimeter? A few voltage readings can tell you a lot about how the system is working. Any cheap multimeter from a DIY store will be fine for this.

 

[SwissBob]

Sounds like your battery may be dud as the lights will work off the 12v also fridge needs 12v for the control panel if you are saying it would notbwork on gas? If you have a multi meter can you disconnect the EHU so no charger on then test the habitation battery voltage.

Agree. Classic leisure battery issue. I do think folk tend to forget that EHU only powers the 240v sockets and the leisure battery charger.

 

[PlacidoD]

Could well be the hab battery.

Took delivery of this van on 03/05/24. Since then it has been on a few road trips - circa 450 miles in total but te rest of the time on EHU on a site or at home.

Battery has only two out of four bars.

Out for the day with the familt but will explore further on my return.

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[pappajohn]

Two breakers in the garage.
You should have more than two breakers.
Usually one ror sockets
One for heater/boiler
One for charger
Maybe one for fridge
Plus a main breaker.
Switches UP for on.

 

[autorouter]

Two breakers in the garage.
You should have more than two breakers.
Usually one ror sockets
One for heater/boiler
One for charger
Maybe one for fridge
Plus a main breaker.
Switches UP for on.

Ideally, yes. But it's a 2007 MH. My 2006 Hymer had one RCD and one MCB when I got it.

 

[pappajohn]

Ideally, yes. But it's a 2007 MH. My 2006 Hymer had one RCD and one MCB when I got it.

So if just one item developed a fault you lose everything on 230v.
And I thought British converters were cowboys....at least my kontiki had 4 MCB and an RCD.

 

[PlacidoD]

"Two breakers in the garage. ......."

I am down in Pembrokeshire visiting my daughter and grandchildren and I am on my way home in the morning so they have had priority today. So only now investigating further.

One has to be a contortionist to see the circuit breakers in a cupboard inside the garage on top of the boiler with only a small door on that side of the garage. Having checked there are actually 3 circuit breakers plus an oblong yellow switch. So I presume that that is 3 MCBs plus one RCD (What does RCD stand for?)

I now have 4 out of 4 bars on the hab battery and the same on the engine battery. ( Started it up to be on the safe side - No problem!). I said 2 bars in an earlier post. I likely should have said a weak 3. Circuits have not cut out at all today since breakfast. Truma hot water/space heating working on gas (They are gas only but need 12V working to fire up.) and fridge also working on 240v. Yesterday was cloudy/raining all day and I had all hab lights on save for the bedroom area by mid-evening having put the cab external cover on early between showers.

So all of that tends to re-enforce the suggestion of an ailing hab battery. On good days when traveling or given light 12v consumption no problem but with heavy use it cannot cope and cuts out with warning rather than totally knackering the hab battery.

So I will get the driver's seat off when home tomorrow and check out battery spec and dimensions (and also check the handbook for good measure) then order from the firm in Wrexham from which I have purchased motorcycle batteries in the past.

All of this is a blessing in disguise. The thought of trying to work out the problem and source a battery in France in 3 weeks time would not be a pleasant one!!

Anybody got any suggestions for best make of hab battery? Fairly obviously glass mat and designed for deep discharge? I will take the opportunity to up the amps if I can. Current battery is either a 95 or 110 Amps (and not that old ?2/3 years? But I have the distinct impression, as must be common, that the van did not get much use in the 15 months or so before the previous owner decided to sell)

Thanks for all the help so far!!!

Chris

 

[MichaelT]

"Two breakers in the garage. ......."

I am down in Pembrokeshire visiting my daughter and grandchildren and I am on my way home in the morning so they have had priority today. So only now investigating further.

One has to be a contortionist to see the circuit breakers in a cupboard inside the garage on top of the boiler with only a small door on that side of the garage. Having checked there are actually 3 circuit breakers plus an oblong yellow switch. So I presume that that is 3 MCBs plus one RCD (What does RCD stand for?)

I now have 4 out of 4 bars on the hab battery and the same on the engine battery. ( Started it up to be on the safe side - No problem!). I said 2 bars in an earlier post. I likely should have said a weak 3. Circuits have not cut out at all today since breakfast. Truma hot water/space heating working on gas (They are gas only but need 12V working to fire up.) and fridge also working on 240v. Yesterday was cloudy/raining all day and I had all hab lights on save for the bedroom area by mid-evening having put the cab external cover on early between showers.

So all of that tends to re-enforce the suggestion of an ailing hab battery. On good days when traveling or given light 12v consumption no problem but with heavy use it cannot cope and cuts out with warning rather than totally knackering the hab battery.

So I will get the driver's seat off when home tomorrow and check out battery spec and dimensions (and also check the handbook for good measure) then order from the firm in Wrexham from which I have purchased motorcycle batteries in the past.

All of this is a blessing in disguise. The thought of trying to work out the problem and source a battery in France in 3 weeks time would not be a pleasant one!!

Anybody got any suggestions for best make of hab battery? Fairly obviously glass mat and designed for deep discharge? I will take the opportunity to up the amps if I can. Current battery is either a 95 or 110 Amps (and not that old ?2/3 years? But I have the distinct impression, as must be common, that the van did not get much use in the 15 months or so before the previous owner decided to sell)

Thanks for all the help so far!!!

Chris

Lithium but you may have to change charger etc. I've a brand new 85a gel if you interested

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[autorouter]

Having checked there are actually 3 circuit breakers plus an oblong yellow switch. So I presume that that is 3 MCBs plus one RCD (What does RCD stand for?)

A Residual Current Device (RCD) is detects leakage to earth, and protects against electric shock and some fires. It doesn't protect against overcurrent. A Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) protects against overcurrent. Usually there is one RCD and one or more MCBs. An RCD has a 'Test' button, but an MCB doesn't. So the trip switch with the test button is an RCD.

Briefly, an RCD compares the outgoing and returning mains current (amps). They should be exactly equal and opposite in theory. If there is any leakage of current to earth, the RCD detects the difference, and if it is more than 30mA, trips the switch. That limit is designed to prevent a lethal electric shock to a human.

Anybody got any suggestions for best make of hab battery? Fairly obviously glass mat and designed for deep discharge?

Deep discharge yes, but not necessarily Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM). They have a mixed reputation on here. They need a special charging profile, up to 14.7V rather than 14.4V as required by standard flooded batteries and gel batteries. They also require an extended timed 'absorption' stage, to allow the small amount of gas produced when charging to 'recombine' back into water. Gels also require an extended timed absorption stage, but only at the lower voltage of about 14.4V. If they are charged with the wrong profile, the batteries will fail early, after a couple of years, or even less if you are unlucky.

So before deciding, you need to see what battery types your existing charger supports. A new charger is not very expensive, so no battery types are ruled out if you are prepared to get a new charger. Has the existing charger got a label on it?

 

[PlacidoD]

Autorouter,

Thanks for your very informative post. I am learning fast!

My first task is to find what existing battery is fitted. I have a full service history and the receipt is in there.

I am not sure I know where the charger is located let alone make and model! But I will look. I have just 20 days before heading off to France. I work full time and have commitments at the weekend. So I shall do some reading round once I have made the five hour journey home tomorrow night and then phone Tayna batteries who have always given me good service in the past and likely order a straight swap or similar. The battery has to be fitted this next weekend or I may not have the time. I can make significant improvements next time I swap. That would seem the better option. I do not mind paying a bit extra for a quality battery. The van lives on my drive where it is on an EHU so it will not be neglected. I will be the better informed in my discussions with them as a result of your post! I suppose the limit of my ambitions is to up capacity by maybe 20AH. So perhaps up from 95 MH to 110 MH or something like that.

P.S. I have no ambition to go down the LiPo route. The total cost would be too high as proportion of the van's value. From all I read we are talking a minimum of £3k and likely more for such a system and, were I to elect to spend that much, I doubt I could get it all fitted in the less than 3 weeks available.

Chris

 

[TheBig1]

awful things the AGM leisure batteries, with frequent reports of premature failure without warning. Seriously not the ideal choice for a motorhome. If sticking with Lead technology, Sonschein (SP?) Gel batteries are reliable quality

 

[TheBig1]

I realise that this case is a knackered battery, but a few weeks back I traced a fault for a friend. Fuse blowing on lights was tracked to a failed LED module in a light. These usually die open circuit, so just out. This one was near dead short circuit and had a burn mark on the little PCB

 

[autorouter]

The battery has to be fitted this next weekend or I may not have the time. I can make significant improvements next time I swap. That would seem the better option. I do not mind paying a bit extra for a quality battery. The van lives on my drive where it is on an EHU so it will not be neglected. I will be the better informed in my discussions with them as a result of your post! I suppose the limit of my ambitions is to up capacity by maybe 20AH. So perhaps up from 95 MH to 110 MH or something like that.

I presume the battery is fitted in the under-seat space, so while the seat is off you could see how easy it is to fit two batteries next to each other. You may find for example that two 95Ah will fit but not two 110Ah.

Another thing worth doing is sorting out how to take voltage measurements with a multimeter. Voltage measurements are easy and safe, a 12V battery won't give you a shock even if you touch the terminals with your hands. Any cheap meter from a DIY store will be fine for this.

A battery has a positive and negative terminal, and you would think that a meter to measure it would have two probe leads, plugged into sockets marked positive and negative. No such luck. The negative socket is marked 'COM' (= Common) and is coloured black. Connect the black probe lead to the COM socket. If you are measuring voltage, the positive socket is the one with 'V' in the label, and is coloured red. Connect the red probe lead to the socket with 'V' in the label.

A battery sends out DC voltage - the symbol for DC is two lines,one solid, one dotted. Nearly all automotive voltages are the DC type, as is the voltage from a solar cell and battery charger. The other type of voltage is AC, as found in domestic 3-pin mains sockets and electrical appliances. The symbol for AC is a single wavy line.

Set the meter dial to the 20V DC range. If it's the auto-ranging type, just set it to DC Volts, it will adjust the range itself.

Push the black probe onto the battery negative terminal. Push the red robe onto the battery positive terminal. You should get a measurement of between 10V and 15V. If you get the probes the wrong way round, nothing bad happens, but a minus sign appears in front of the measurement reading.

I don't know how your red/green colour-blindness affects distinguishing between red and black coloured wires, but I suspect you might have to label the probes explicitly. The reason AC mains colours were changed from red, black and green to brown, blue and green/yellow was to avoid problems due to red/green colour-blindness, which is surprisingly common in males. You might want to label the battery terminal wires too, if they are UK standard colours (pos = red, neg = black). If the motorhome uses German colours (pos = blue, neg = brown) you might not need to label them.

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[autorouter]

To show how useful voltage measurements can be, a battery not being charged and not under load settles to a voltage of between 12.7V (full) and 12.0V (about as low as you normally let it go to).
If the voltage is 13.0V or more, up to about 14.8V, then something is actively charging it, which can be useful to know.
If the voltage is below 12.0V, it needs charging, and will need several hours to fill up.
If the voltage settles fairly quickly to about 10.5V, and stays there, even after a long charge, it is possible one of the cells inside the battery has shorted, which is one of the failure modes.

 

[PlacidoD]

" I presume the battery is fitted in the under-seat space, so while the seat is off you could see how easy it is to fit two batteries next to each other. You may find for example that two 95Ah will fit but not two 110Ah."

My dealer told me there was no space for a 2nd battery. He has proved wrong about a couple of very minor details so maybe I will be in for a pleasant surprise. Once home I can get the seat off and it can stay off until a new battery is fitted.

A multi-meter would have been a complete mystery until your explanation. Thank you I will look on Ebay/Amazon on my return.

Chris

 

[PlacidoD]

awful things the AGM leisure batteries, with frequent reports of premature failure without warning. Seriously not the ideal choice for a motorhome. If sticking with Lead technology, Sonschein (SP?) Gel batteries are reliable quality

Thanks,

Sonschein are out of stock at Vanya. If it will fit this looks favourite:

EXV110AGM Enduroline AGM Leisure Battery 95Ah

EXV110AGM Enduroline AGM Leisure Battery <i>Enduring Power for Every Cycle</i> The Enduroline brand name is the flagship battery of Tayna Batteries. With the highest quality, power and performance. With much care and attention to detail lavished on every model. We are extremely proud of the...

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[headlight]

PlacidoD you need to determine what mains charger is fitted before buying a battery to make sure it has the correct charge profile.
FYI my 2006 motorhome charger only supports standard lead acid, likewise my sisters 2012 motorhome only supports standard lead acid.
Neither supports AGM or Gel.
BTW my sisters van came with an AGM hab battery even though the fitted charger didn't support AGM.
She found the battery was no good and I replaced it with lead acid for her.

 

[oldiesontour]

I have 2 x 110ah lead acid from Tayna under the driver's seat Peugeot boxer standard seat base same as ducatto (2020) fit perfectly.
I went L A as lithium were silly money at the time ,now changing to lithium new b2b /solar controller mains charger and 340ah lithium cost Under £600 added 220w solar £110

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[1967bowesj]

I have 2 x 110ah lead acid from Tayna under the driver's seat Peugeot boxer standard seat base same as ducatto (2020) fit perfectly.
I went L A as lithium were silly money at the time ,now changing to lithium new b2b /solar controller mains charger and 340ah lithium cost Under £600 added 220w solar £110

Where did you get all that for under £600 if you dont mind me asking

 

[oldiesontour]

Where did you get all that for under £600 if you dont mind me asking

Renogy DC DC mppt 50a (also keeps starter battery full from solar )£220...4x 3.2 v 340ah prismatic lipo4 cells 200amp Bluetooth BMS battery heater circa £7, Smart mains charger 50a £45.

 

[1967bowesj]

Renogy DC DC mppt 50a (also keeps starter battery full from solar )£220...4x 3.2 v 340ah prismatic lipo4 cells 200amp Bluetooth BMS battery heater circa £7, Smart mains charger 50a £45.

Thanks, have looking at dc dc ready for the lithium upgrade when the leads die lol. Not sure I could build my own battery though

 

[oldiesontour]

Thanks, have looking at dc dc ready for the lithium upgrade when the leads die lol. Not sure I could build my own battery though

Dead easy all bolt terminals 15 min job I like Renogy b2b simple to fit compact in my experience reliable (used them for over 10yrs)
Took a few covers off nice build quality) I have just took out a one year old 30amp and replaced with the 50amp version ..you can have LCD Display or Bluetooth but neither are essential as a good BMS will give most needed information a shunt type battery meter will give everything needed £25 ISH to £50 ISH with Bluetooth

 

[PlacidoD]

So I made it home after 5 hour 30 mins of non-stop driving (I hate the journey Bolton to Fishguard. You are basically in convoy for well over 100 miles!)

Set about the task or removing the seat after unloading etc. An odd mixture of bolts - some hex , some allen key and the 5th and final one had a badly mangled allen key head which required hacksawing into a screwdriver slot then lots of penetrating oil to shift it.

While the penetrating oil was working I looked through the service history. I could have sworn that a leisure battery was fitted recently but the only invoice I could find was for an Oldham Advance 110AH battery from June 2019. So with that info under my belt I saw no need to head to B & Q for a multimeter before they closed. The battery would be well past its best.

So back to getting the seat off! Success revealed not an Oldham battery but a VARTA (F17 12V 80AH no 740 A 580 406074 313 2) with the date 05/23 scratched onto it!!

So now I think I do need a multi-meter to check the Varta out. But I note that is a standard car battery not a leisure battery:

F17 Varta Blue Dynamic Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580406074) (110)

F17 VARTA Blue Dynamic Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the first...

www.tayna.co.uk

That would go some way to explaining why it could not cope with all the lights on (most of which are not leds) plus the fridge and water pump. There was also one duff spot light type bulb which I have removed with a view sourcing led replacements. There are quite a few of those (spotlights).

So I am in a quandary which a multi-meter may help solve. I will have two nights without EHU on my France trip and 5 nights with EHU. Knowing not to switch on all the lights might allow this battery to cope for a while. However I don't think I would trust it for my next 15 day foreign trip at the very end of August with longer nights and likely 5 nights on Aire's/Sostas some of which may not have EHU.

I am looking at this Varta EFB leisure battery (Point taken about GSM and Gel):

LED80 Varta Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery 80Ah (930080080)

LED80 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after...

www.tayna.co.uk

or maybe this one which likely will fit though I will need to double check the length measurement in the morning (if there was a 110AH battery in situ at some stage. That would tend to suggest it will fit):

LED95 Varta Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery 95Ah (930095085)

LED95 VARTA Professional Dual Purpose EFB Leisure Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after...

www.tayna.co.uk

The other interesting observation is that there IS space for a 2nd battery though I would plainly need leads and I take it I should have two matching batteries (or would the existing Varta F17 work in tandem with the LED80? I have a feeling that is a bad idea!!!)

Chris