Electrical Issues with Hobby T500: Seeking Solutions

[PlacidoD]

There I was enjoying a nice cold cider and surfacing the Net with the the blinds closed ready for bed on a site in Fishguard when the lights went out. Anyway I carried on surfing and enjoying the cider before investigating the problem.

Needless to say it is raining and my only torch turned out to have flat batteries!

Symptoms:
All lighting is out even though running through two different fuses.
Mains sockets were working (Kettle could be boiled and PC being charged. So unless by some bizarre means the van has an inverter I did not know about I still had partial mains power)
Checked the trip switches in the garage. Both OK.
Checked the 20 amp fused - Both OK
Checked the EHU at the site post - No sign of problems there

Then I noticed that the switch on the Panel over the door was out. Pressing that restored the lights. Magic! Problem solved - NOT!!!. The lights are now tripping out every few minutes but I still have 13 amp/240 volt power

I have turned off most of the lights but still it is tripping out and I appear to have lost my Truma (gas only) when tripped out.

So it is a problem apparently affecting 12V only. In the morning I will disconnect the EHU and see if the lights will work off the auxiliary battery. I will also set the fridge to run on gas to see if that sorts things.

Any suggestions as to the nature of the problem and a solution?
As I say there is penetrating drizzly rain atm.
I have swapped EHU connections but that makes no difference.

Currently (No pun intended!) when I press to reset the button top right in the photo the led alongside flashes before tripping out again a few minutes later.

Tomorrow is a dry day. Fingers crossed the problem will then go away and I can certainly dry off the EHU plug and socket.
I am on this site one more night (and can get torch batteries tomorrow) but I am on my way to France in 3 weeks and need this sorting by then!!

All advice appreciated! Currently I am completely in the dark (That pun was intended!)

Chris

 

[oldiesontour]

Bad idea ! Maybe take a look at eBay lots of big sellers and sometimes Tayna are cheaper on eBay than their own website And yes 2 X 110ah will go in you will need 1 X lead + both ends 1 lead - both ends

 

[PlacidoD]

"Bad idea ! ..."

Sorry what is a bad idea? Presumably mixing old and new - wet and EFB?

Chris

 

[oldiesontour]

"Bad idea ! ..."

Sorry what is a bad idea? Presumably mixing old and new - wet and EFB?

Chris

Ideally non lithium bats SHOULD be as near to identical as possible in simple terms the greater the difference the less benefit and or shorter the life

 

[PlacidoD]

Back to the drawing board! Further reading reveals EFB batteries apparently require a special charger!!!

Chris

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[oldiesontour]

Personally as a temporary (1to4 yrs) I would buy 2 cheapish flooded la batteries @110ah and a meter of 25 mm battery lead 2+ 2 - clamps circa £220.
With a view to going lithium in the future
Quick relatively cheap easy ... plenty of time to assess future needs

 

[PlacidoD]

Ideally non lithium bats SHOULD be as near to identical as possible in simple terms the greater the difference the less benefit and or shorter the life

Thanks that is what I thought.

My problem is time to get this done either my own or finding a mobile fitter that can sort this for me.

My leisure battery will need to be low profile (190mm) and either 315mm or perhaps 345/355 mm which limits the Ah to maybe 95Ah.

My plan:
1. Acquire a multi-meter today and check the existing battery (Was I just asking too much of it being unaware of its limitations. I can easily limit output via lighting/ Is it good enough at least for my first short trip to France?)
2. Now or in the near future acquire one circa 95 Ah leisure wet battery.
3. Post my short trip to France acquire either a 2nd identical battery or buy two at the same time and thus double my capacity.

I suppose I could buy two now but fit only one and the 2nd if I have time to source leads etc. I have 12v chargers to keep a 2nd charger in good condition pending a fit.

Let me see what the multi-meter shows today.

Chris

 

[MichaelT]

Thanks that is what I thought.

My problem is time to get this done either my own or finding a mobile fitter that can sort this for me.

My leisure battery will need to be low profile (190mm) and either 315mm or perhaps 345/355 mm which limits the Ah to maybe 95Ah.

My plan:
1. Acquire a multi-meter today and check the existing battery (Was I just asking too much of it being unaware of its limitations. I can easily limit output via lighting/ Is it good enough at least for my first short trip to France?)
2. Now or in the near future acquire one circa 95 Ah leisure wet battery.
3. Post my short trip to France acquire either a 2nd identical battery or buy two at the same time and thus double my capacity.

I suppose I could buy two now but fit only one and the 2nd if I have time to source leads etc. I have 12v chargers to keep a 2nd charger in good condition pending a fit.

Let me see what the multi-meter shows today.

Chris

If you do fit 2 take the positive from one battery the negative from the other.

 

[oldiesontour]

Thanks that is what I thought.

My problem is time to get this done either my own or finding a mobile fitter that can sort this for me.

My leisure battery will need to be low profile (190mm) and either 315mm or perhaps 345/355 mm which limits the Ah to maybe 95Ah.

My plan:
1. Acquire a multi-meter today and check the existing battery (Was I just asking too much of it being unaware of its limitations. I can easily limit output via lighting/ Is it good enough at least for my first short trip to France?)
2. Now or in the near future acquire one circa 95 Ah leisure wet battery.
3. Post my short trip to France acquire either a 2nd identical battery or buy two at the same time and thus double my capacity.

I suppose I could buy two now but fit only one and the 2nd if I have time to source leads etc. I have 12v chargers to keep a 2nd charger in good condition pending a fit.

Let me see what the multi-meter shows today.

Chris

Thought 190mm sounded familiar,I have a rough sketch of my seat base with apx measurments(done for obtaining lithium) Just had a look and It shows seatbox 190 high so my 2x 110ah must be no more than 190...I seem to remember having a few sellers to choose from so by no means rare... I'll measure them later and see if I can find out where I bought them (doubtful)

 

[oldiesontour]

Just had a look for my invoice sorry can't find it.But a.quick Google Tayna. Powerline XV110
Circa £85 Inc delivery Dual purpose leisure battery 4 year G.tee. 2 will go under my seat and should yours.(Powerline is Tayna own brand.

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[headlight]

I've used low profile, 175mm high, 110AH batteries for years in my boat, my previous PVC, my present motorhome before I switched to Lifepo4 and I fitted 2 to my sisters motorhome earlier this year.
About £80 delivered from Ebay.
Normally change them every 4 years'ish.

 

[autorouter]

Don't expect much information on the battery state of health just from a meter reading. You could measure the 'resting voltage' of the battery (not being charged, not powering a load, resting for an hour or two at least). That is a reasonable indication of the state of charge of the battery, from 0% to 100%. There are battery voltage charts on the internet, slightly different for the different types of batteries.

Ultimate Guide to Battery Voltage Chart - Jackery

Understanding the battery voltage lets you comprehend the ideal voltage to charge or discharge the battery. This Jackery guide reveals battery voltage charts of different batteries, such as lead-acid, AGM, lithium-ion, LiFePO4, and deep-cycle batteries.

www.jackery.com

But what you want to know is the state of health, ie does 100% charge mean 110Ah, or has the battery capacity deteriorated so that even when 100% full the '110Ah' battery is only holding say 80Ah of charge. That is more difficult to measure.

The basic idea is: charge up to 100%. Take out a known amount of charge, maybe about 20% of the label capacity. Measure the resting voltage to see what % state of charge it has dropped to. Then calculate how much below expectations it is.

For example, for a 95Ah battery, 20% is 19Ah. So that could be say 5 amps for 3.8 hours, ie 3 hr 48 min. Then measure the voltage. If the resting voltage chart says 80% then the battery is perfect. If it says 70% it has deteriorated, but probably still OK. If it says 50% or lower, then the battery is on its way out.

As far as I know there is no short-cut for this measurement. The 'battery tester' devices used by garages will test the starter battery capacity - the ability to provide a massive current (hundreds of amps) for a few seconds, to power a starter motor. Leisure batteries typically provide a small current, say 5 amps, for many hours. Many proper leisure batteries, especially Gels, might be damaged by the starter battery testing device.

How do you load the battery with say 5 amps? An easy way it to use the fact that for a 12 volt battery, each amp carries 12 watts. So if you turn on 60 watts of load that will draw 5 amps from the battery. The only advantage of those non-LED filament lamps you have is that they are useful for loading a battery for testing. Six 10W lamps is fine.

Actually measuring the amps with a multimeter is possible in theory, but is a lot of faff, because you have to disconnect the wire and put the meter into the circuit so that the amps flows through the meter. Nowadays I always use a clamp meter, which just clips round the wire and measures the amps by measuring the magnetic field that the amps generates - no disconnection necessary.

I have one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UNI-T-Resistance-Capacitance-Multimeter-Temperature/dp/B00O1Q2HOQ/?tag=mhf04-21

Be careful if you are thinking of buying a clamp meter. Most of them, including the cheaper ones in DIY stores, will only measure AC amps. Even though the box label says 'AC/DC Clamp Meter'. They measure DC Volts but not DC Amps. Read the small print in the spec sheet. They are bought by house electricians for working on AC mains.

 

[oldiesontour]

Don't expect much information on the battery state of health just from a meter reading. You could measure the 'resting voltage' of the battery (not being charged, not powering a load, resting for an hour or two at least). That is a reasonable indication of the state of charge of the battery, from 0% to 100%. There are battery voltage charts on the internet, slightly different for the different types of batteries.

Ultimate Guide to Battery Voltage Chart - Jackery

Understanding the battery voltage lets you comprehend the ideal voltage to charge or discharge the battery. This Jackery guide reveals battery voltage charts of different batteries, such as lead-acid, AGM, lithium-ion, LiFePO4, and deep-cycle batteries.

www.jackery.com

But what you want to know is the state of health, ie does 100% charge mean 110Ah, or has the battery capacity deteriorated so that even when 100% full it is only holding say 80Ah of charge. That is more difficult to measure.

The basic idea is: charge up to 100%. Take out a known amount of charge, maybe about 20% of the label capacity. Measure the resting voltage to see what % state of charge it has dropped to. Then calculate how much below expectations it is.

For example, for a 95Ah battery, 20% is 19Ah. So that could be say 5 amps for 3.8 hours, ie 3 hr 48 min. If the resting voltage chart says 80% then the battery is perfect. If it says 70% it has deteriorated, but probably still OK. If it says 50% or lower, then the battery is on its way out.

As far as I know there is no short-cut for this measurement. The 'battery tester' devices used by garages will test the starter battery capacity - the ability to provide a massive current (hundreds of amps) for a few seconds, to power a starter motor. Leisure batteries typically provide a small current, say 5 amps, for many hours. Many proper leisure batteries, especially Gels, might be damaged by the starter battery testing device.

How do you load the battery with say 5 amps? An easy way it to use the fact that for a 12 volt battery, each amp carries 12 watts. So if you turn on 60 watts of load that will draw 5 amps from the battery. The only advantage of those non-LED filament lamps you have is that they are useful for loading a battery for testing. Six 10W lamps is fine.

Actually measuring the amps with a multimeter is possible in theory, but is a lot of faff, because you have to disconnect the wire and put the meter into the circuit so that the amps flows through the meter. Nowadays I always use a clamp meter, which just clips round the wire and measures the amps by measuring the magnetic field that the amps generates - no disconnection necessary.

I have one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UNI-T-Resistance-Capacitance-Multimeter-Temperature/dp/B00O1Q2HOQ/?tag=mhf04-21

Be careful if you are thinking of buying a clamp meter. Most of them, including the cheaper ones in DIY stores, will only measure AC amps. Even though the box label says 'AC/DC Clamp Meter'. They measure DC Volts but not DC Amps. Read the small print in the spec sheet. They are bought by house electricians for working on AC mains.

Nice explanation on all counts

 

[PlacidoD]

I've used low profile, 175mm high, 110AH batteries for years in my boat, my previous PVC, my present motorhome before I switched to Lifepo4 and I fitted 2 to my sisters motorhome earlier this year.
About £80 delivered from Ebay.
Normally change them every 4 years'ish.

My problem is length. I am not sure that a 345 or 354mm length will fit under my driver's seat. Current length is 315mm. Something like 335mm would definitely fit but above that a bigger battery is likely to foul something. Obviously the extra length would make it easy to get to 110Ah.

Chris

 

[PlacidoD]

Nice explanation on all counts

Thanks for taking so much trouble to educate me!!

I much prefer to do things myself. That way I know if I am being told tall stories about complexity and cost if beyond my competence or simply do not have the time when instructing others. And anyway, sods law, things will always go wrong when you are in a country whose language you do not speak. So an ability to self help makes sense!

Chris

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[PlacidoD]

Just had a look for my invoice sorry can't find it.But a.quick Google Tayna. Powerline XV110
Circa £85 Inc delivery Dual purpose leisure battery 4 year G.tee. 2 will go under my seat and should yours.(Powerline is Tayna own brand.

That may well be too big for my box which narrows on three out of four sides towards the base. (So the footprint for the base of the battery is much narrower than the topside on three sides.)

This one is an exact match for the dimensions of the existing battery:

XV85MF Powerline Leisure Battery 12V

XV85MF Powerline WET Lead Acid Leisure Battery The Powerline battery brand name is fast becoming one of the best budget batteries on the market. With the highest power and performance at an affordable competitive price. Powerline Batteries are designed to cope with modern day power demands...

www.tayna.co.uk

Thanks for the info that powerline is the own brand for Tayna. I have been using Tayna for in excess of 10 years and have always found them very reliable.

Chris

 

[headlight]

My problem is length. I am not sure that a 345 or 354mm length will fit under my driver's seat. Current length is 315mm. Something like 335mm would definitely fit but above that a bigger battery is likely to foul something. Obviously the extra length would make it easy to get to 110Ah.

Chris

The battery I'm referring to is 110AH, L315mm x W175mm x H175mm (including terminal posts).
Ebay item no 325864748918. £86 delivered.
I know it's only got a 2 year warranty but after having used them for years I've always got 4 years out of them at least.

 

[1967bowesj]

The battery I'm referring to is 110AH, L315mm x W175mm x H175mm (including terminal posts).
Ebay item no 325864748918. £86 delivered.
I know it's only got a 2 year warranty but after having used them for years I've always got 4 years out of them at least.

Goid spot for size. Be worth PlacidoD concudering two of these. Bet that ebay selker does leads to or amazon for next day delivery. You might as well get it done while seat is off or you doing it all over again another day.

 

[PlacidoD]

Decisions made and actioned:

1. I am converting most bulbs in the van to LEDs to reduce output. That has the potential to reduce output when all relevant lights are on by about 100 watts. Often I am putting the cab external cover on early particularly if doing so between showers which means lights go on before dark (as happened especially early when my problems first occurred given torrential rain that evening).
2. I have ordered the Tayna Powerline 85 Ah battery as I trust Tayna to be reliable and they promise delivery before 18:45 on the relevant day unlike so many suppliers/couriers. I am often out singing of an evening. Also it has a 4 year warranty.
3. I am not 100% sure that a 2nd battery of identical size will fit in front of the existing under the seat so I have left off ordering a 2nd and will slot the existing Exide car battery into that spot to check. I have also ordered 24" battery cables etc. to connect a 2nd battery (the 12" from Tayna were likely a tad short so ordered off Ebay).
4. Not ordered a multi-tester yet. I like the clamp meter on Amazon at £43.60 rather than something more cheap and cheerful. The existing Exide car battery is definitely underperforming albeit only 14 months old. (I know nothing of how it was used before March, 2024. The van was stored under cover by my dealer pending collection and so no solar input and perhaps no EHU so only outings for a new clutch and MOT to charge the battery). I will run a very simple test today disconnecting the EHU, turning the fridge off and switching on 60 watts of lighting for a few hours. If the circuits switch out as they did last Saturday night I will bin that battery.
5. Depending on how I get on with my simple test I may link the Exide to the new Tanya battery and then order a 2nd matching battery to fit on my return from my late July 8 day jaunt to a CMC site near Alderstead Heath off the M25 and then on to Dieppe and environs or alternatively check and tape off the wiring and dump the Exide as above. I am sure the new single battery will cope on its own these light nights given just two nights without EHU.

Going back to the beginnings of my saga like many I would guess new to van life I had assumed that the 240v EHU was powering the 12v systems via a transformer rather than more simply by a battery charger feeding the battery meaning that a dud battery would mean zero lighting and, in my case, put other supplies in particular heating and water pressure in doubt even if on an EHU. Lesson learned: Check the hab batteries each Spring and regularly thereafter! P.S Just vaguely wondering if I left the fridge on 12V having arrived on site Friday evening rather than swapping to 240v. That would be quite a drain on the battery for 28 hours before my problems started!

Chris

 

[autorouter]

1. I am converting most bulbs in the van to LEDs to reduce output. That has the potential to reduce output when all relevant lights are on by about 100 watts.

When I converted mine, I replaced the 10W halogens with '20W equivalent' LEDs. So twice the light and about a fifth of the power consumption. I thought that was better than just replacing with '10W equivalent' LEDs, same brightness but a tenth of the power consumption.

Going back to the beginnings of my saga like many I would guess new to van life I had assumed that the 240v EHU was powering the 12v systems via a transformer rather than more simply by a battery charger feeding the battery meaning that a dud battery would mean zero lighting and, in my case, put other supplies in particular heating and water pressure in doubt even if on an EHU.

Some chargers have a 'power supply mode', ie they will supply a fixed voltage, usually about 13.8V, if no battery is connected. But most of them don't, as you say. I have a Victron Bluesmart IP65 15A charger which does have a power supply mode, and has a lithium setting too for future upgrades.

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[PlacidoD]

Well the Exide battery will definitely be binned. All was well with 60 watts output after 1 hour but by 2 hours 15 mins the circuit had tripped out. So I would just be creating a millstone for the new battery to have to cope with if I were to wire it in. So I might travel with just one new battery to France later this month (Maybe order the 2nd and install if I have time or fit it on my return).

As I said in an earlier post - A blessing in disguise - Trying to sort this on an Aire somewhere near Dieppe would have been problematic.

Chris

 

[headlight]

PlacidoD just be aware that battery warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on and your chances of successfully claiming on one are slim to none.
Plenty of members on here with that experience.
Just a heads up.

 

[PlacidoD]

PlacidoD just be aware that battery warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on and your chances of successfully claiming on one are slim to none.
Plenty of members on here with that experience.
Just a heads up.

It is however a statement of the quality of the battery.

Chris

 

[PlacidoD]

"When I converted mine, I replaced the 10W halogens with '20W equivalent' LEDs. So twice the light and about a fifth of the power consumption. I thought that was better than just replacing with '10W equivalent' LEDs, same brightness but a tenth of the power consumption."

I have done that with the MR11s but I have 3 x MR8s on the main light fitting along with three other lights switched separately. I was just pleased to get hold of those bulbs as they are in short supply and I do not want the cost or time needed to replace the whole fitting!!

Chris

 

[headlight]

It is however a statement of the quality of the battery.

Chris

Not so I'm afraid.
I've had a 2 x 4 year warranty batteries fail within warranty, one failed at 13 months old.
Other members have had batteries fail within warranty.