Electric Motorhomes at Scale, Can't be Far Away Now.

[TheMobileWanderer]

I agree that coach build motorhomes are nowhere near ready for BEV. Even 6m PVCs are probably another generation away. But it's coming. For delivery vans, BEV is doable for some companies. And for cars, it's already very practical for the vast majority of cases. Despite what the deniers say.

If by coach built you mean a motorhome built to the customers specification, whether by a company or by the owner, then it's those owners, rather than the motorhome, that aren't ready. If I had the budget as I build mine, I'd be going electric. Tried the vintage voltage guys for my car but it was too new. Haven't found an alternative but when resources are replenished, I'll do it.
I watched True Blue Travellers build their PVC on an ex-Sainsbury's delivery van. It was diesel but I can't help but think that uf electric ones were available, they'd have used one.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

No one has mentioned the fact that a significant number of motorhomes are kept in storage, not on the driveway. Unless substantial infrastructure is installed at these locations, it cannot be assumed that any motorhome is going to start its journey with a full charge. Whilst some of the journeys will be within a 100 mile or so radius and this viable as EV, the "run to the sun" may involve five or six days of long runs. Add in that these overnight stops may well be "off-grid" and it starts looking problematic. I submit that this is closer to the reality of motorhome usage.

Surely, if it's been in storage, the first journey should be to a place to prepare it for travel, tyre pressure, fluid levels, a wash, an internal freshen-up. It could charge during the freshen-up at least.

Then, humour me a second, you set off en route to say Gibraltar. Half-way through each leg, you could stop for a pee ir coffee or just to stretch your legs, whilst you've put the MH on charge. So, after 20mins or so, from a 1/4 full battery to say 80% it won't be empty when you stop overnight. Then break up the next leg with a wee/coffee/visit some place.

It's more of a change in culture than problematic imv.

Yes/no?

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Jeez you do like making up facts

Which manufacturers exactly have realised this and given up? Curious minds require an answer to this one

I read a few weeks back that BMW has switched a huge portion of R&D to hydrogen and so are scaling back R&D of BEV. I think there may be the potential for EV with hydrogen backup, as opposed to petrol/diesel electric.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

Hi Folks,
Over a beer the other night, a guy I know told me of his amazing Jaguar I-Pace. It cost over £85K new and has all the toys. It is about 4 years old, he said, but now has a problem. It needs a new battery pack. He has been quoted £30,000 for the batteries!
Of course this is one example, from one manufacturer, and cannot represent all EVs......But....
Can you imaging spending over £100K on a motorhome, and as we all like to keep our vehicles, having to find that sort of money for a new battery pack some time later? The last time I had info on a new Internal Combustion Engine, it was about £10,000 for a 3 Lt V6 - again a Jaguar.
Another point - what about the environmental cost of digging out the heavy and rare metals, transporting them, making the batteries, transporting them, and then disposing of them? Are not in danger of leaving a huge problem for future generations to deal with. OK for us crinkly folks, but our children and grand children will have a lot to sort out.
I am sure EVs will become a realistic option for some, I just don't want everyone to be forced into something that does not meet their needs because we have removed options in the blind belief that we all want what we are told we want.

It's actually £22k for a diesel 3.0 jag as evidenced by those unfortunate souls whose car has full service history yet it spun a bearing snapping the crankshaft or other such horrendousness, due to oil dilution. And JLR won't admit there's a design fault or, at best, incorrect service intervals. Quite, how they expect to go top-end following their re-brand defeats me. They haven't built good product in upper-mid range they'll hardly succeed in the more difficult top end. Range rovers are even worse for busted shafts due to the increased inertia, compared to jag.

I digress. Just said it for benefit of anyone here who may have a euro6 JLR diesel.

 

[Jev88]

AI has this to add. Sorry if repetition...

Alternative Fuel Weight limit increase

• The UK government is not increasing the weight limit for driving licences, but has introduced changes allowing drivers with a standard car licence (Category B) to drive alternatively-fuelled vans up to 4.25 tonnes without needing a separate test, a change that was introduced in 2023.
  
  Here's a more detailed explanation:
  • Current Rules:
    A standard car driving licence (Category B) allows you to drive vehicles up to 3,500kg (3.5 tonnes).
    
    
  • Changes for Alternative Fuelled Vehicles (AFVs):
    The government has introduced a derogation (a temporary exception) allowing drivers with a Category B licence to drive alternatively-fuelled vans (AFVs) between 3,500kg and 4,250kg (4.25 tonnes).
    
    
  • Why the Change:
    This change aims to encourage the adoption of AFVs, particularly in the commercial sector, by making them more accessible to drivers who might otherwise need a heavier vehicle licence (Category C).
    
    
  • No General Increase in Weight Limit:
    The change is specific to AFVs and doesn't mean that the standard weight limit for Category B licences has been increased for all vehicles.
    
    
  • Other Considerations:
    The changes are part of a wider consultation on driving licence flexibility and the phasing out of new non-zero emission HGVs.
    
    

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[Jev88]

So does that mean LPG and Petrol running vehicles? Can't say I know if any cars or vans that are LPG only like a forklift?

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

It makes no odds. The world climate will change just as it always has done, and there is nothing we can do about it. We just need to adapt. The quicker people realise this the quicker we will be prepared.

Oooo, the irony.

 

[StillGoing]

Saw VW are bringing out a 20k EV next year so perhaps the message is getting through.

I’m not sure the message is getting through. I see VW have said the range of the ID.1 will be 150 miles which will mean a real world range of about 100 miles in winter. There’s no way I’d swap my petrol Polo or my old Up! for it. 100 miles just isn’t practical unless the charging infrastructure and speed improves.

 

[The Wino]

I’m not sure the message is getting through. I see VW have said the range of the ID.1 will be 150 miles which will mean a real world range of about 100 miles in winter. There’s no way I’d swap my petrol Polo or my old Up! for it. 100 miles just isn’t practical unless the charging infrastructure and speed improves.

Depends on your pattern of use if you commute every day into a city with a low emissions zone say 20 miles each way and can charge at home it could be great. There are though already much better options at the same price European manufacturers have been caught napping.

 

[cyberyacht]

Half-way through each leg, you could stop for a pee ir coffee or just to stretch your legs, whilst you've put the MH on charge.

With my bladder, I'd never see the battery drop below 85%

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[SpeedyDux]

I read a few weeks back that BMW has switched a huge portion of R&D to hydrogen and so are scaling back R&D of BEV. I think there may be the potential for EV with hydrogen backup, as opposed to petrol/diesel electric.

On the subject of hydrogen for surface transport:

I am following the progress by Toyota with their new engine that runs on water. Distilled water for now. Maybe that can change, so you can refuel the car using your garden hose. Try taxing that, Ratchel Thieves!

My understanding is that the ICE generates hydrogen as its own fuel using electrolysis. Removing the need for a heavy hydrogen tank and hydrogen infrastructure for refuelling.

Zero tailpipe emissions. Clever stuff. No need for a heavy EV battery. No need for charging infrastructure.

It looks very promising. Elon Musk thinks so. Even reported as saying this means the end of the EV industry. Whether that is an accurate report I can't say. Imagine Tesla becoming an ICE company using water as fuel!

If this technology becomes mainstream, it would also remove the need to increase the UK's elecricity generating and distribution Grid capacity by two and a half times before 2050. That's huge.

 

[nicholsong]

With my bladder, I'd never see the battery drop below 85%

Skip the coffee, it is a diuretic - simples

Then stick to an IC vehicle.

 

[The Wino]

On the subject of hydrogen for surface transport:

I am following the progress by Toyota with their new engine that runs on water. Distilled water for now. Maybe that can change, so you can refuel the car using your garden hose. Try taxing that, Ratchel Thieves!

My understanding is that the ICE generates hydrogen as its own fuel using electrolysis. Removing the need for a heavy hydrogen tank and hydrogen infrastructure for refuelling.

Zero tailpipe emissions. Clever stuff. No need for a heavy EV battery. No need for charging infrastructure.

It looks very promising. Elon Musk thinks so. Even reported as saying this means the end of the EV industry. Whether that is an accurate report I can't say. Imagine Tesla becoming an ICE company using water as fuel!

If this technology becomes mainstream, it would also remove the need to increase the UK's elecricity generating and distribution Grid capacity by two and a half times before 2050. That's huge.

You're about three weeks too early for April fool jokes!

 

[RetiredPope]

If this technology becomes mainstream, it would also remove the need to increase the UK's elecricity generating and distribution Grid capacity by two and a half times before 2050. That's huge.

Where do you get this nonsense from !!

 

[The Wino]

Where do you get this nonsense from !!

If you research it it's partly true as they are developing an engine that runs on hydrogen produced by electrolysis of distilled water. It seems very sketchy though on how they are going to provide the electricity to do the electrolysis! It seems at least one person has been taken in!

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[Guigsy]

On the subject of hydrogen for surface transport:

I am following the progress by Toyota with their new engine that runs on water. Distilled water for now. Maybe that can change, so you can refuel the car using your garden hose. Try taxing that, Ratchel Thieves!

My understanding is that the ICE generates hydrogen as its own fuel using electrolysis. Removing the need for a heavy hydrogen tank and hydrogen infrastructure for refuelling.

Zero tailpipe emissions. Clever stuff. No need for a heavy EV battery. No need for charging infrastructure.

It looks very promising. Elon Musk thinks so. Even reported as saying this means the end of the EV industry. Whether that is an accurate report I can't say. Imagine Tesla becoming an ICE company using water as fuel!

If this technology becomes mainstream, it would also remove the need to increase the UK's elecricity generating and distribution Grid capacity by two and a half times before 2050. That's huge.

This snake oil has been sold for decades. Hydrogen is an energy store. It takes energy to electolyse water. You can't get more out than you put in.

 

[The Wino]

This snake oil has been sold for decades. Hydrogen is an energy store. It takes energy to electolyse water. You can't get more out than you put in.

You actually are bound to get a lot less out of it than you put in it's never going to be anywhere near 100% efficient. It does make you wonder when people actually believe this sort of stuff.

 

[Minxy]

I only go to a petrol station because I've no choice. If I were able to rock up at my overnight place and just plug in, it would save time and be more convenient. That's why I think campsites will provide such a service, when the numbers stack up for them, simply to be another revenue stream.

The problem is that it won't be a new revenue stream as they can't charge more for the electric than they pay for it so the only way to make any extra money and/or recover the outlay would be to charge more for pitches with that facility but it wouldn't be high enough to recoup the cost even then. It may make it more appealing for EV owners to go to that site but not sufficient to make it financially viable.

 

[AndyPK]

Just back from Warwick C&MC site, and there are notices advising that, if you wish to charge your EV, the cost is £7 per night extra, and you must plug-in from your unit rather than a bollard. So this is a flat rate at the moment as they do not (yet) have individual pitch metering……

 

[Minxy]

So they are trying to get round it by charging for the permission to do it, not sure how legal that is though.

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[SpeedyDux]

Where do you get this nonsense from !!

If Elon Musk isn't dismissing this as nonsense maybe you should take it seriously.

In a surprising turn, Elon Musk has announced Tesla's latest venture: a revolutionary “water engine” powered by hydrogen. Shared through a post on X (formerly Twitter), Musk revealed that Tesla is pivoting from traditional battery technology to hydrogen power after facing challenges with their 4,680 battery cells. 12 Nov 2024

Toyota also announced that it is developing a new water engine, that will revolutionise clean transport. They are very serious about this. The technology is explained at the beginning of this video:

 

[MichaelT]

So they are trying to get round it by charging for the permission to do it, not sure how legal that is though.

Doesn't matter so long as the other campers essentially pay for somebody to charge their car, after all they wouldn't chip in for your diesel

 

[The Wino]

The problem is that it won't be a new revenue stream as they can't charge more for the electric than they pay for it so the only way to make any extra money and/or recover the outlay would be to charge more for pitches with that facility but it wouldn't be high enough to recoup the cost even then. It may make it more appealing for EV owners to go to that site but not sufficient to make it financially viable.

I'm not so sure about not being able to charge more than they pay for it if it's not for habitation use. Charges at EV charging points vary widely they can't be charging anywhere near what they are paying.

 

[Coolcats]

No one has mentioned the fact that a significant number of motorhomes are kept in storage, not on the driveway. Unless substantial infrastructure is installed at these locations, it cannot be assumed that any motorhome is going to start its journey with a full charge. Whilst some of the journeys will be within a 100 mile or so radius and this viable as EV, the "run to the sun" may involve five or six days of long runs. Add in that these overnight stops may well be "off-grid" and it starts looking problematic. I submit that this is closer to the reality of motorhome usage.

Its about a change of behaviour I don't not disagree with your thoughts but you just plan the journey differently

 

[Coolcats]

The problem is that it won't be a new revenue stream as they can't charge more for the electric than they pay for it so the only way to make any extra money and/or recover the outlay would be to charge more for pitches with that facility but it wouldn't be high enough to recoup the cost even then. It may make it more appealing for EV owners to go to that site but not sufficient to make it financially viable.

Yes they can and yes they do, as an example BP will charge you far more than the domestic tariff, any commercial provider can charge you what they wish, you the consumer can decide to buy it or not.

So a campsite that has invested in a new charging infrastructure can choose to recover thier costs by charging what they wish.

You will see the table below if you are a BP subscriber you pay one rate, pay as you go another and contactless/ online another.

So yes this is a new revenue stream, not saying it's right but how it is.

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[Minxy]

Yes they can and yes they do, as an example BP will charge you far more than the domestic tariff, any commercial provider can charge you what they wish, you the consumer can decide to buy it or not.

That's very interesting as it's the complete opposite of what I was told recently by a holiday lettings agent who suggested we put them in at our lodges which didn't make financial sense due to not being able recoup the installation cost. I will investigate further.

 

[Coolcats]

That's very interesting as it's the complete opposite of what I was told recently by a holiday lettings agent who suggested we put them in at our lodges which didn't make financial sense due to not being able recoup the installation cost. I will investigate further.

Hope it helps, but you may need a commercial licence, I dont know the details but it can be done, maybe its the domestic side eg your renting a room buying the electric at domestic rate you cannot then just add your 'margin' but the EV charging points are all more than the domestic rate. Good luck with your enquiries and it would be interesting to hear what you find.

 

[The Wino]

That's very interesting as it's the complete opposite of what I was told recently by a holiday lettings agent who suggested we put them in at our lodges which didn't make financial sense due to not being able recoup the installation cost. I will investigate further.

As a holiday home owner and an EV driver I personally at the moment wouldn't bother. As EVs become more common I probably would install one but set to charge only on cheap rate and include it free in the letting as a marketing move. The installation cost wouldn't be anywhere near that of something like a hot tub close to zero maintenance and very little cost for the electricity. It depends a bit on how many lettings youre getting at the moment maybe a question for the agent would be what difference has putting an EV charger made for other clients and do they charge for it. If it means that you could charge as little as £20 extra per letting and get more occupancy it would probably be worth it without the hassle of metering and billing per kWh