EHU in Europe - no earth

[cmj01]

Hi all,

Have stayed in a few European campsites recently where my electrical checker for polarity reports no earth. Hymer van seems happy enough but getting tingles from the chassis / wheels. I have got metal stabiliser legs and this seems to earth the van, but are there any other solutions? Is this unsafe?

Many thanks,

Mike

 

[bigtwin]

I just don't get the fixation wouldn't it be a better idea to forget testing forget reversed polarity leads and just unplug the hook up before taking anything apart?

Yes, and if folks don’t understand that you have to question why they would even contemplate attempting any kind of diagnostic/repair activity on a mains powered device.

Ian

 

[autorouter]

The issue at home and abroad is reverse polarity where the neutral is live and live is neutral. 99.9% of the time that is not a problem but can be with some equipment. The problem occurs because the MCB normally switches the live, but in this case is switching the neutral. If will still drop under overload conditions, but means that the live is still on the appliance, it just has no return path. If you start working on that live circuit or device having checked the trip is down, you would still get a nasty shock. Continental systems generally, but not always, switch both live and neutral I double trips. Your RCD switches both so if that detects an error, it stops the power whether reverse polarity or not.

This is one view of some of the issues, but does not include the many accident scenarios that could be encountered by anyone unintentionally. It is true that dismantling an appliance without unplugging it will cause a hazard, but it is simply not true that it is the only hazardous situation that is possible with reverse polarity, as some on here are always trying to make out whenever reverse polarity is mentioned.

I could go through several scenarios, from the classic toaster in the sink to a cable trapped in a bike chain, and hundreds of other unlikely but possible events. But there's no convincing some people, they'll still trot out the same true but incomplete fact to dismiss any safety concerns.

Reverse polarity causes hazards in UK motorhomes, a good earth and an RCD will mitigate nearly all the hazards. If the earth is missing, there is a safety hazard. It's easy and quick to use a socket tester to check for faults like a missing earth.

 

[DDJC]

I do test the polarity. And I do use a polarity swap plug if it shows revers polarity.
I understand that for most sets ups a reverse polarity isn't important, but a motorhome deal said to me that he always did it, just in case.

 

[meanders]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that's the only scenario. As you say there are many possibilities and as most electrocutions occur when more than one thing is wrong, they are the real worry. Saying ignore reverse polarity 99 times out of the 100 wouldn't matter, but you are removing one layer of protection. If the other layer fails, you are in trouble.

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[Zigisla]

I used to get this all thie time but there is a way around it. Open the door then, before you put your foot on the ground, hold on to it at the edge or the top, making sure you're touching metal on the door. Then, while still holding the door, put your foot on the floor and step out. This helps discharge the static electricity in your body through the car, so you don't feel a shock

That’s exactly what I have to do. ️

 

[HKF]

That’s exactly what I have to do. ️

My worst experience of static was in the 80s, pushing a child's buggy through an M&S store. The carpet must have had a high nylon content and I was getting zapped all the time!! I had no idea how to deal with it back then, so made a hasty retreat out of the store!! Of course, now i know to put something as a block between me and the buggy (or whatever else it might be). You live and learn

 

[Richard n Ann]

I do test the polarity. And I do use a polarity swap plug if it shows revers polarity.
I understand that for most sets ups a reverse polarity isn't important, but a motorhome deal said to me that he always did it, just in case.

You're removing the tiny risk of reverse polarity by adding the tiny risk of additional connectors

 

[meanders]

The risk of adding two ceeforms and a short length of cable in the line has to be miniscule compared to the potential problems of reverse polarity.

 

[Zigisla]

My worst experience of static was in the 80s, pushing a child's buggy through an M&S store. The carpet must have had a high nylon content and I was getting zapped all the time!! I had no idea how to deal with it back then, so made a hasty retreat out of the store!! Of course, now i know to put something as a block between me and the buggy (or whatever else it might be). You live and learn

Every time I touch anything metal, I always lead with the knuckles. This saves the “zap” of the fingertips. No idea if I still get zapped or not. Just don’t take the chance anymore

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[autorouter]

Every time I touch anything metal, I always lead with the knuckles. This saves the “zap” of the fingertips. No idea if I still get zapped or not. Just don’t take the chance anymore

If it's a regular problem, you could hold one end of a small high-value resistor, about 1 megohm, and touch the metal with the other end. The static dissipates through you in a second or two instead of a millisecond or two, so you don't feel any shock.

 

[cyberyacht]

Isn't it natures way of telling you to get an off-grid setup?

 

[bigtwin]

The risk of adding two ceeforms and a short length of cable in the line has to be miniscule compared to the potential problems of reverse polarity.

Only if the person making up the lead is competent.

Ian

 

[Jabstatt]

Hands up who actually uses Ferrules?

Tony

 

[ToGoldlyBo]

Tingles when I touch the chassis ... mmm ... Isn't that one of the reasons for having a motorhome?

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[autorouter]

Hands up who actually uses Ferrules?

I use either insulated or non-insulated ferrules. I find that it's the people who really need to use ferrules that are the ones that don't use them.

 

[ChesterB]

I am horrified by the casual attitude of some of the responses to what what is a simple question about electrical safety first posted by cmj01.
Of course earthing is important and an RCD, whiltst being a lifesaver in it's own right, is simply a back up to a correctly earthed supply system.
Reverse polarity is not a "tiny risk", it can and probably will kill you if combined with any number of other faults.
I think the MHF management ought to look carefully at this thread which has now been running for over 48 hours and could easily lead to someone getting hurt, or worse.
The simple answer is that if you find there is no earth in the EHU on your site, either don't use it, or move to another site. No if's, no buts - stay alive!
Cb.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Hands up who actually uses Ferrules?

Tony

I use them when working for our OCD suffering electrician, he's obsessed with them. They are OK for screw terminals but air conditioner terminals are special clamps for either spade forks, or there's a little hole for bare wires

 

[CleverTrevorUK]

Cant beat a mark 1 earth pin! if the ground is too hard then drive onto it and wet it in both cases

 

[Swiss]

I am aware that 'Continental Flat 2-Pin plugs' with no earth connection exist, and are in common use in houses. I haven't seen any flat 2-pin sockets providing power for campervans.
View attachment 916551
Maybe one camper's multiway adapter will have flat 2-pin sockets as outputs, but all the supply boxes should have round '2-pin' sockets, which should all have an earth contact - either twin sliding contacts top and bottom, or reversed earth pin in French sockets.

The cable that you are showing is for class 2 products that do not require an earth connection, this is usually indicated with a square within a square symbol on the product. We use the same cables in the UK and quite often the earth pin on the mains plug is actually plastic as it is not required. As a general rule if any part of the external part of the appliance is metal that can be touched by a human and also can come into contact with anything electrical inside the appliance, then it is class 1 and will require an earth connection, typically something like a washing machine. Other items such as modern TVs etc. that have a plastic cabinet are class 2 (double insulated) and do not require an earth connection, as in theory you will never be able to come into direct contact with anything live inside.

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[The Wino]

I am horrified by the casual attitude of some of the responses to what what is a simple question about electrical safety first posted by cmj01.
Of course earthing is important and an RCD, whiltst being a lifesaver in it's own right, is simply a back up to a correctly earthed supply system.
Reverse polarity is not a "tiny risk", it can and probably will kill you if combined with any number of other faults.
I think the MHF management ought to look carefully at this thread which has now been running for over 48 hours and could easily lead to someone getting hurt, or worse.
The simple answer is that if you find there is no earth in the EHU on your site, either don't use it, or move to another site. No if's, no buts - stay alive!
Cb.

How do you then explain many more motorhomes than in the UK using those continental sites with no apparent problem?

 

[bigtwin]

Reverse polarity is not a "tiny risk", it can and probably will kill you if combined with any number of other faults.

The primary contributor to that risk is behaving like an idiot by not removing the EHU lead before doing what that idiot shouldn’t be doing in the first place.

As The Wino says, where’s the data that validates this significant danger from ‘reverse polarity’ continental sites (where 50% of EHU posts will have ‘reverse polarity’ present)?

Ian

 

[autorouter]

The simple answer is that if you find there is no earth in the EHU on your site, either don't use it, or move to another site. No if's, no buts - stay alive!

I would agree if the earth is in fact missing from the EHU supply post. But a more likely cause is a loose connection in the EHU cable, or in the motorhome EHU inlet. So it's worth eliminating those with a socket tester first before complaining/moving on.

I always carry an adapter from round blue plug to UK socket, so I can test the EHU post, the EHU cable and the sockets in the motorhome.

 

[The Wino]

The primary contributor to that risk is behaving like an idiot by not removing the EHU lead before doing what that idiot shouldn’t be doing in the first place.

As The Wino says, where’s the data that validates this significant danger from ‘reverse polarity’ continental sites (where 50% of EHU posts will have ‘reverse polarity’ present)?

Ian

I think it's like the ordinary or food grade only hose thing different people have different views

 

[autorouter]

How do you then explain many more motorhomes than in the UK using those continental sites with no apparent problem?

Reverse polarity is zero risk in a European MH with European electrics. All the switches and circuit protections are double pole.

Reverse polarity is a risk in UK MHs due to the details of the electrics. All of them have UK 3-pin plugs which have a fuse, which is inherently single pole. Some diy conversions have sockets with single pole switches. Some diy conversions have UK domestic circuit breakers which are single pole. Some older MHs and DIY conversions have no RCD.

Modern UK MHs have everything double pole, with an RCD, except for the fused plugs, so the extra risk from reverse polarity is indeed tiny if other protections are in place - proper earth and an RCD.

A missing earth is a hazard for all motorhome types, UK and European, but it a bit riskier for UK motorhomes with their fused plugs. A proper earth is fundamental to the electrical safety of the motorhome system. Everything will continue to function with a reverse polarity supply, but if a fault occurs a lethal hazard can exist if the earth or RCD is missing.

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[AlanandMayya]

Hi all,

Have stayed in a few European campsites recently where my electrical checker for polarity reports no earth. Hymer van seems happy enough but getting tingles from the chassis / wheels. I have got metal stabiliser legs and this seems to earth the van, but are there any other solutions? Is this unsafe?

Many thanks,

Mike

Continuous 'tingling' is mains current, not static. Static charges discharge with a single CRACK when you make the circuit. Tingling means your whole van is live (albeit maybe via a high-ish resistance); which is somewhere between 'slightly concerning' and 'very likely to be fatal', depending on the resistance (which we dont know; and which may vary with, say, dampness). A little tingle on a dry day in your shoes could become a huge belt that kills you in bare feet on a damp day. True, an RCD / RCB/ RCBO should sense the imbalanced current that any such leakage gives, and shut off the supply if its more than 30mA so you only get a very brief shock. But have you got one? Does it work properly? Even if YES and YES, it is madness to rely on that to save your life. It is totally against any code, rule or law I know of to just accept that what you are working on or using is live, but its OK, the RCD will save me. The whole point of Earthing is that if some touchable part becomes live, then, BECAUSE ALL TOUCHABLE PARTS ARE CONNECTED TO EARTH, it will immediately draw a current and the RCD will trip. Or in absence of an RCD, maybe blow a fuse or trip a breaker. So the trip happens as soon as the fault occurs and you can start finding and fixing it. Without earthing, the part becomes live, stays live for years maybe, and gets tripped by the RCB only when something (you?) connected to earth touches it, receiving only a minor shock. If all works as it should. Earthing immediately exposes faults so they are not latent.

OK, maybe your van is connected to Neutral, not Live, and thats only, say, 30V above Earth, and thats what you feel, and it wont harm you. BUT: that will vary and in some places Neutral is hot enough to kill you, say if you're standing in a puddle. More worryingly, it is common for N and L to be interchanged, so that little Neutral shock you got today may come from Live on your next campsite.

Some equipment works safely without earth and comes with 2 core cable and plug, not 3 core. To be sold legally in any sensible country, it has to be certified as Double Insulated. In general, these items have no touchable metal parts, or those that are, are very well away from any electricity.

You need to find out what is causing L or N to leak current to your van chassis; I would do that by monitoring the leakage and unplugging / disconnecting things in turn till it stops. Dont do it by switching off; most switches (including those on sockets, and the MCBs in your Consumer Unit aka Fuse Box) are single pole, so will isolate a Live fault but not a Neutral one. I would first suspect anything that gets wet. Water heater or pump? Roof-mounted light or fan with condensation on it? Electric hob? Gas hob igniter?

Personally I dont use EHU but if I did I would have a portable earth - just a 30cm metal spike shoved in the ground connected to the chassis via 2.5mm2 flex. That way, any leakage to your chassis becomes a leakage to earth, and an RCD will trip (I assume you have RCD protection for your van circuits and are not relying on the EHU having one).

Sorry for the rant! For the Alternative View, my old mate Paul used to say "Earth wires are like seatbets - they do f* all useful, I mean you never need them, you may as well chuck them out and save some money and weight." Well, there is a tiny nugget of truth somewhere in that huge bucketload of slag but I personally like earth wires and seatbelts.

 

[Daffy64]

We live in a 1930’s semi on the south coast and during some decorating under the stairs I noticed the electic cable coming into the house from the pole only had 2 wires, further investigation confirmed we didn’t have an earth connection the the pole.

All of the in house wiring back to the consumer unit was to standard with earth wires connected.

This prompted an urgent call to Southern Electric who weren’t at all concerned but did agree to connect me up if I wanted…

The guy that came out suggested that we weren’t alone as it wasn’t the done thing back in the day, he did say that with our consumer unit we would be fine but others with older fuse type panels might not have a breaker…

The morale of the story is - even if you’ve got an earth it doesn’t mean that it’s connected and it might be a more common thing than we think.

Personally I wouldn’t worry about it on a temporary connection but do agree that any repeated’tingle’ on the chassis will likely mean some sort of leakage and that needs to be sorted as it’s not only a potential safety issue but could cause a problem with any vehicle electronics.

 

[IRHP]

We live in a 1930’s semi on the south coast and during some decorating under the stairs I noticed the electic cable coming into the house from the pole only had 2 wires, further investigation confirmed we didn’t have an earth connection the the pole.

All of the in house wiring back to the consumer unit was to standard with earth wires connected.

This prompted an urgent call to Southern Electric who weren’t at all concerned but did agree to connect me up if I wanted…

The guy that came out suggested that we weren’t alone as it wasn’t the done thing back in the day, he did say that with our consumer unit we would be fine but others with older fuse type panels might not have a breaker…

The morale of the story is - even if you’ve got an earth it doesn’t mean that it’s connected and it might be a more common thing than we think.

Personally I wouldn’t worry about it on a temporary connection but do agree that any repeated’tingle’ on the chassis will likely mean some sort of leakage and that needs to be sorted as it’s not only a potential safety issue but could cause a problem with any vehicle electronics.

Was there not an earth rod into the ground with all the earth wiring connected to it?

 

[marpool]

I would agree if the earth is in fact missing from the EHU supply post. But a more likely cause is a loose connection in the EHU cable, or in the motorhome EHU inlet. So it's worth eliminating those with a socket tester first before complaining/moving on.

I always carry an adapter from round blue plug to UK socket, so I can test the EHU post, the EHU cable and the sockets in the motorhome.
View attachment 917150View attachment 917151

Same here, I do it every time when connecting the van to any external power source, knowledge is power so to speak no pun intended.

 

[Daffy64]

Was there not an earth rod into the ground with all the earth wiring connected to it?

Nope, nothing at all.

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[Brains]

We live in a 1930’s semi on the south coast and during some decorating under the stairs I noticed the electic cable coming into the house from the pole only had 2 wires, further investigation confirmed we didn’t have an earth connection the the pole.

All of the in house wiring back to the consumer unit was to standard with earth wires connected.

This prompted an urgent call to Southern Electric who weren’t at all concerned but did agree to connect me up if I wanted…

The guy that came out suggested that we weren’t alone as it wasn’t the done thing back in the day, he did say that with our consumer unit we would be fine but others with older fuse type panels might not have a breaker…

The morale of the story is - even if you’ve got an earth it doesn’t mean that it’s connected and it might be a more common thing than we think.

Personally I wouldn’t worry about it on a temporary connection but do agree that any repeated’tingle’ on the chassis will likely mean some sort of leakage and that needs to be sorted as it’s not only a potential safety issue but could cause a problem with any vehicle electronics.

We had a similar story.
Our Victorian house had the new fangled leki stuff fitted in 1938.

They wired up one light in each room (no lights on the the landing, the outside loo or the scullery), and three sockets for the entire house!
One socket in the kitchen for a toaster, one in the living room for the radiogram, one in the main bedroom for a bedside light.
That remained the only electricity for the next 60 years.

When we got the house (in need of TLC said the Estate Agent, total rip out and refurb said the surveyor) the guy from the Electrical company got me to switch on the electricity wearing wellies and Marigolds, standing on a plastic bucket and using a broom to flip the switch!

We then had to excavate the gutta percha electrical cable between the road and the mains switch using plastic archaeological tools and brushes. And then had to have the entire road cut off whilst the old cable was removed and a new one spliced in.

The same thing had to be done for our neighbours house when they bought it in 2015.
They still had the 1938 electrical installation and no bathroom and an outside loo.
(Boy moved in in 1942 and only left when the council moved him to a home 70 years later, the house was untouched from when his parents died in the 1960's).

Quite amazing for an area where most houses have two commas in the sale price.