Doesn't that also happen if your starter battery and your Pb leisure batteries are also fully charged.?
Ecotree Lithium Install
- Thread starter Mrjenben
- Start date
It does and doesn’t matter it’s designed for Pb, so no issues there.
I think -but not totally sure -its the lower resistance in the Lithiums that could be the issue.
jongood No problem - I dont think there is a single right answer
It won’t be able to pump 50 amps into them if they're full!
I think you’re right, the issue being raised is how long it will try to do it, and also what will be the residual current flow due to the different charge/ resistance profile of lithium.
Final update for now. This is a long and possibly too technical one - sorry!
This has been an interesting learning experience. What’s become clear on various discussions is that it’s very hard to get the perfect setup. And that Im definitely a novice in this
From what I’ve researched, and been told, current lead acid charge systems are not necessarily the best way to charge lithium. However this same info has not entirely convinced me that the “lithium profiles” on many new chargers are much better sometimes. Also none of them provide an easy way to leave the batteries at 80% for extended periods when not in use.
It seems if you want to have the absolute max battery performance and life then you still need to implement your own programmable BMS in conjunction with fully controlable chargers. While on hookup you will also need someway to isolate the battery from the normal mains charger/power supply to avoid a damaging float status, whilst still being able to power the van electrics from the charger.
Luckily, we dont need perfection. Even a flawed install should give us more than what we need. So I want to stick to a simple cost effective solution to give reasonable performance and life. I’m happy as long as I meet the needs of the 6 year warranty.
So, to do that, I think that when using a battery like the Ecotree then all of the charge sources need to provide this charge profile:-
1. Constant Current charge (“Bulk“ in old money) - limited to a max of 0.5c for the Ecotree battery so 55amps.
2. Constant Voltage (”Absorption”) As the resistance increases the maximum voltage should be 14.2 volts (although up to 14.6 is allowed). With this design of BMS this voltage should be held for a minimum of 20-60 mins to enable cell balancing to take place.
3. Float. The batteries naturally rest at 13.2-13.3 volts. A float isn’t needed for the battery, but if you want to power your van on hookup then a float of 13.6ish is needed to make it use the charger as a power supply rather than discharging the battery.
Right so I’ve checked out my install against this. Using actual readings at the battery -
1. Mains Charger - The EBL29 on lead acid setting charges the discharged Lithium at a constant 15amps until the voltage reaches 14.3. It then holds this for 4 hours even though the current drops below 0.1a almost immediately. It then switches to a 13.6 float.
So not entirely bad. A shorter absorption would be better but looking at any lithium charger, they normally have a 2 hour absorption anyway, so not a great improvment.
2. Solar - Pretty much the same. 4 hrs at 14.3 then float at 13.4. Ok for me.
3. Alternator - My alternator feeds a max of 26a at 13.7 v into a discharged battery, falling to less than 0.1a when full.
I know this will vary depending on the state of charge of both the van and lithium battery. And I know a B2B could increase this to 14.2v, increase the charge rate and probably provide a more consistent float after its 2 hr absorption. But we normally stop for a rest every 3 hrs or so, and faster charging isn’t really a need for us, so not a big issue.
So it seems a drop in replacement looks good so far. I will leave the battery off-charge when the vans not being used - and check it weekly to see if it needs a top up. But I can’t be bothered to try to discharge it to 80% every time. Also Im going to see how the alternator charging goes with some real experience and maybe upgrade to a B2B in future.
Hope this is useful
This has been an interesting learning experience. What’s become clear on various discussions is that it’s very hard to get the perfect setup. And that Im definitely a novice in this
From what I’ve researched, and been told, current lead acid charge systems are not necessarily the best way to charge lithium. However this same info has not entirely convinced me that the “lithium profiles” on many new chargers are much better sometimes. Also none of them provide an easy way to leave the batteries at 80% for extended periods when not in use.
It seems if you want to have the absolute max battery performance and life then you still need to implement your own programmable BMS in conjunction with fully controlable chargers. While on hookup you will also need someway to isolate the battery from the normal mains charger/power supply to avoid a damaging float status, whilst still being able to power the van electrics from the charger.
Luckily, we dont need perfection. Even a flawed install should give us more than what we need. So I want to stick to a simple cost effective solution to give reasonable performance and life. I’m happy as long as I meet the needs of the 6 year warranty.
So, to do that, I think that when using a battery like the Ecotree then all of the charge sources need to provide this charge profile:-
1. Constant Current charge (“Bulk“ in old money) - limited to a max of 0.5c for the Ecotree battery so 55amps.
2. Constant Voltage (”Absorption”) As the resistance increases the maximum voltage should be 14.2 volts (although up to 14.6 is allowed). With this design of BMS this voltage should be held for a minimum of 20-60 mins to enable cell balancing to take place.
3. Float. The batteries naturally rest at 13.2-13.3 volts. A float isn’t needed for the battery, but if you want to power your van on hookup then a float of 13.6ish is needed to make it use the charger as a power supply rather than discharging the battery.
Right so I’ve checked out my install against this. Using actual readings at the battery -
1. Mains Charger - The EBL29 on lead acid setting charges the discharged Lithium at a constant 15amps until the voltage reaches 14.3. It then holds this for 4 hours even though the current drops below 0.1a almost immediately. It then switches to a 13.6 float.
So not entirely bad. A shorter absorption would be better but looking at any lithium charger, they normally have a 2 hour absorption anyway, so not a great improvment.
2. Solar - Pretty much the same. 4 hrs at 14.3 then float at 13.4. Ok for me.
3. Alternator - My alternator feeds a max of 26a at 13.7 v into a discharged battery, falling to less than 0.1a when full.
I know this will vary depending on the state of charge of both the van and lithium battery. And I know a B2B could increase this to 14.2v, increase the charge rate and probably provide a more consistent float after its 2 hr absorption. But we normally stop for a rest every 3 hrs or so, and faster charging isn’t really a need for us, so not a big issue.
So it seems a drop in replacement looks good so far. I will leave the battery off-charge when the vans not being used - and check it weekly to see if it needs a top up. But I can’t be bothered to try to discharge it to 80% every time. Also Im going to see how the alternator charging goes with some real experience and maybe upgrade to a B2B in future.
Hope this is useful
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Bobby-gg
LIFE MEMBER
Well, I've just installed my ecotree battery and Votronic B2B today so will be doing my installation post tonight or tomorrow 
I do this using the Victron IP22 charger which you can configure to act as a power supply when on hookup. This means that the battery isn’t being charged. I hope this is what you’re talking about.
I’ve found your thread very interesting to follow as I’m learning a lot albeit from far lower technical level than you. I hope it all goes well.
Thanks for the feedback
Im not sure the IP22 will disconnect the battery automatically when in power supply mode? You will still need to isolate it if you don’t want it to discharge as the power supply mode is only 12.8v.
I don’t think you need to worry though - if you use the IP22 lithium profile then the float is low enough to not cause any problems while you are using the van, and if it’s in long term storage you can always disconnect the battery anyway.
This is a photo from the manual.Thanks for the feedback
Im not sure the IP22 will disconnect the battery automatically when in power supply mode? You will still need to isolate it if you don’t want it to discharge as the power supply mode is only 12.8v.
I don’t think you need to worry though - if you use the IP22 lithium profile then the float is low enough to not cause any problems while you are using the van, and if it’s in long term storage you can always disconnect the battery anyway.
Edit: it says that in power supply mode, it will disable the internal charge logic. Not sure if this has the same effect as disconnecting the battery.
I took that to mean it will just output 12.8v rather than go through a normal charge cycle?
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I see what you mean but if I recall correctly, when parked up recently, I wanted to see how we fared with the new lithium’s and Victron gear. So whilst on hook-up, I put the IP22 into Power Supply mode and then looked at the shunt. I believe it showed no charge to the leisure battery whilst showing the current usage. I don’t think that I took a screen shot at the time. But if I get a chance over the next few days, I’ll go out to the van, hookup, put the IP22 on Power Supply Mode and then take some screen shots of what’s happening.
Tombola
LIFE MEMBER
thats right it does output 12.8v as a power supply.
just as if it were a battery
Last edited:
- Jul 5, 2013
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Thanks for the feedback and the Interesting conclusions.Final update for now. This is a long and possibly too technical one - sorry!
This has been an interesting learning experience. What’s become clear on various discussions is that it’s very hard to get the perfect setup. And that Im definitely a novice in this
From what I’ve researched, and been told, current lead acid charge systems are not necessarily the best way to charge lithium. However this same info has not entirely convinced me that the “lithium profiles” on many new chargers are much better sometimes. Also none of them provide an easy way to leave the batteries at 80% for extended periods when not in use.
It seems if you want to have the absolute max battery performance and life then you still need to implement your own programmable BMS in conjunction with fully controlable chargers. While on hookup you will also need someway to isolate the battery from the normal mains charger/power supply to avoid a damaging float status, whilst still being able to power the van electrics from the charger.
Luckily, we dont need perfection. Even a flawed install should give us more than what we need. So I want to stick to a simple cost effective solution to give reasonable performance and life. I’m happy as long as I meet the needs of the 6 year warranty.
So, to do that, I think that when using a battery like the Ecotree then all of the charge sources need to provide this charge profile:-
1. Constant Current charge (“Bulk“ in old money) - limited to a max of 0.5c for the Ecotree battery so 55amps.
2. Constant Voltage (”Absorption”) As the resistance increases the maximum voltage should be 14.2 volts (although up to 14.6 is allowed). With this design of BMS this voltage should be held for a minimum of 20-60 mins to enable cell balancing to take place.
3. Float. The batteries naturally rest at 13.2-13.3 volts. A float isn’t needed for the battery, but if you want to power your van on hookup then a float of 13.6ish is needed to make it use the charger as a power supply rather than discharging the battery.
Right so I’ve checked out my install against this. Using actual readings at the battery -
1. Mains Charger - The EBL29 on lead acid setting charges the discharged Lithium at a constant 15amps until the voltage reaches 14.3. It then holds this for 4 hours even though the current drops below 0.1a almost immediately. It then switches to a 13.6 float.
So not entirely bad. A shorter absorption would be better but looking at any lithium charger, they normally have a 2 hour absorption anyway, so not a great improvment.
2. Solar - Pretty much the same. 4 hrs at 14.3 then float at 13.4. Ok for me.
3. Alternator - My alternator feeds a max of 26a at 13.7 v into a discharged battery, falling to less than 0.1a when full.
I know this will vary depending on the state of charge of both the van and lithium battery. And I know a B2B could increase this to 14.2v, increase the charge rate and probably provide a more consistent float after its 2 hr absorption. But we normally stop for a rest every 3 hrs or so, and faster charging isn’t really a need for us, so not a big issue.
So it seems a drop in replacement looks good so far. I will leave the battery off-charge when the vans not being used - and check it weekly to see if it needs a top up. But I can’t be bothered to try to discharge it to 80% every time. Also Im going to see how the alternator charging goes with some real experience and maybe upgrade to a B2B in future.
Hope this is useful
As I said earlier in this thread I have the same EBL and LRM as you, as well as not having a smart alternator, and am looking to upgrade to Lithiums. In my case I think I will be going for two 120Ah batteries from KS, as they are a perfect replacement option without changing any wiring. They also appear to have a better BMS that the Ecotree (although I would have used Ecotrees if I had won the raffle!).
I was veering towards putting in a B2B and a new solar regulator (both from Voltronic) when I replaced them, but now I am not so sure about the B2B. The biggest worry I have got is making sure the Lithiums are not charged when the temperature drops below zero. Not much of a problem when we are using the motorhome because we will have the heating on and the Alde boiler is close to the batteries. The problems may come when we park it up on our drive for winter and we always have it on hook up. I know the KS batteries have low temperature cut off (not sure the Ecotree has) as part of their BMS but I would like a belt and braces solution just in case.
For this reason I will still be replacing the LRM with a Votronic MPPT regulator because, although it has a temperature sensor, it only works when the temperature is too high, not too low because it does not have a Lithium profile. The Votronic has a temperature sensor which cuts out at low temperature when using the Lithium profile. The other reason is that the Voltronic has an AES take off which means that once my batteries are full it will automatically use the solar charge to run the fridge rather than using gas, Very handy in warmer and sunnier climates, but I still have to find an easy route to run the sensor wire to the fridge!.
That still leaves me with making sure the EBL does not charge below zero. The option is to probably leave it off hook up most of the time and just let the solars keep the batteries maintained. I will sometimes want it plugged in, e.g. for warming up the interior and cooling down the fridge just before we leave for a trip. In that case I could just remove the charging fuse from the EBL.
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peterc10 I too would probably have gone for the KS battery due to the inbuilt Bluetooth monitor if we hadn’t won the discounted Ecotree one.
Btw If you want to stop the EBL charging whilst on mains you’re better to unplug the “kettle” lead from it rather than the internal charger fuse. If you just do the fuse then because of the way the internal connections and relays work it means the EBL will trickle charge the starter battery from the leisure battery at 1-2 amps. Probably not a problem for a short time, but worth knowing.
Btw If you want to stop the EBL charging whilst on mains you’re better to unplug the “kettle” lead from it rather than the internal charger fuse. If you just do the fuse then because of the way the internal connections and relays work it means the EBL will trickle charge the starter battery from the leisure battery at 1-2 amps. Probably not a problem for a short time, but worth knowing.
Last edited:
- Jul 5, 2013
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I still want the starter battery trickle charged. Interestingly the LRM will not charge the starter battery until the hab batteries are fully charged. The Voltronic regulator will trickle charge the starter at 1 amp at the the same time as charging the habitation. As I say at the moment my idea is not to have it on hook up in the winter lay up for most of the time and let the solars do the trickling of both hab and starter batteries.peterc10 I too would have gone for the KS battery if we hadn’t won the discounted Ecotree one
Btw If you want to stop the EBL charging whilst on mains you’re better to unplug the “kettle” lead from it rather than the internal charger fuse. If you just do the fuse then because of the way the internal connections and relays work it means the EBL will trickle charge the starter battery from the leisure battery at 1-2 amps. Probably not a problem for a short time, but worth knowing.
I use 2 votronics mmpt chargers and a votronics 30a b2b all with temperature sensors and lithium profiles work perfectly with my dymax 100ah battery. I dont think the battery has 0C limmits so was my concern. The 2b2 is controlled by the D+ which has a switch, so i have control. I have a cbe mains charger which is set to gel but i never need to use (solar charge enough , only one of the mppts 220w panelso mains charger is switched off ) i initially used an issolator on the leasure negative, this has been replaced by a victron bmv712 controlling 2 SSRs to charge the lithium battery based on SOC. I am currently using an arduino mega to read the bmv and temperature sensors this could also be used to control the SSRs if temperature is too low.
Lenny HB
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You could fit a temperature controller to switch the charger or fit heat pads under the batteries.
You van is a similar layout to mine 10 min job to get a cable through the double floor and to the rear of the fridge.
Don't forget to fit a switch or relay inline because the fridge firmware is a bit dumb and it it see a signal on the S+ terminal when on EHU it often switches to 12v. I fitted a mains relay that switches the AES signal from the controller.
- Jul 5, 2013
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I have two deep belly lockers in the middle of of the floor. One in front of the fridge and the other a bit further forward. I have got to trace a route between them and still end up under the fridge
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