DVLA at it again - making up there own rules (3 Viewers)

[The Artilleryman]

DVLA have recently been refusing to change the tax class on any motorhome that is up plated to more than 3500KG. The letter they send out is incorrect, as they are saying that they cannot change the tax code, but only change the Maximum permissible mass (to the new weight).

This leaves the revenue weight & mass in service weights at 3500.

Clearly we could end up being done for being overweight.

Also ANY vehicle over 3500KG is automatically classed PHGV.

I have spoken to SVTech about this and they are aware of this issue and have raised this with several bodies including the NCC.

Clearly somebody at DVLA has got a bee in there bonnet about the number of motorhomes up plating and getting VED refunds and has decided to refuse to change the tax class.

One would hope this can be sorted quickly but I suspect not.

 

[The Artilleryman]

You can check online to see if it's been done.

As to getting the VED refund, good luck with that, it appears that there has been a change of policy over VED refunds due for Revenue Weight changes, believed to be a misinterpretation of the rules.

Getting the Revenue Weight changed is the most important thing, VED refund is secondary.

You need to ensure that all 3 boxes are correct on your new V5c, otherwise it's a covering letter to get it corrected - and they seem to very slow in correcting there mistakes.

DVLA insist they never received my application, but have sent me an updated V5c after I sent photo copies - although only Max. permissible mass had been changed to 3850, Revenue Weight & Mass in service remained at 3500, clearly showing the person doing the changes had know idea of how MPM & MIS are arrived at, REVENUE WEIGHT.

 

[gus-lopez]

What is the base vehicle, manufacturer conversion or home built.
Not completely certain on this, but if registered as M1 and then converted to a camper by a converter. It may need a CoC to change class.

M1= van with seating
N1= van with no seats behind cab

Just to check the max permissible mass should show 4000kg and the mass in service 3500kg or should that be 4000kg as well ?

Both need to be the same for use abroad.
Revenue weight means nothing to them.

 

[The Artilleryman]

M1= van with seating
N1= van with no seats behind cab

Both need to be the same for use abroad.
Revenue weight means nothing to them.

My understanding is :-

M1 = vehicle designed to carry passengers (IE car)
N1 & N2 = vehicle designed for the purpose of carrying freight.

 

[MichaelT]

My understanding is :-

M1 = vehicle designed to carry passengers (IE car)
N1 & N2 = vehicle designed for the purpose of carrying freight.

Same here, M1 is passenger carrying vehicle with up to 8 seats.

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[DangerMousy]

Forget about getting into a discussion with DVLA, if they've not done it properly put in a complaint here: https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/complaints Personally, I wouldn't focus on the tax issue (as the situation seems to be a bit unclear) but rather as gus-lopez says, the fact that both values need to be the same if you take the vehicle abroad.

 

[Lenny HB]

Same here, M1 is passenger carrying vehicle with up to 8 seats.

Although on the C of C it normally says M1 the correct technical classification for a Motorhome is M1 SP (Special purpose).

 

[nicholsong]

We were told some of the problems, e.g. were because of Covid, and service would improve. Well delays seem to have been eliminated, except in the Medical Dept., but there is evidence that Covid has addled some brains in DVLA.

 

[rod_vw]

You can check online to see if it's been done.

As to getting the VED refund, good luck with that, it appears that there has been a change of policy over VED refunds due for Revenue Weight changes, believed to be a misinterpretation of the rules.

Getting the Revenue Weight changed is the most important thing, VED refund is secondary.

You need to ensure that all 3 boxes are correct on your new V5c, otherwise it's a covering letter to get it corrected - and they seem to very slow in correcting there mistakes.

DVLA insist they never received my application, but have sent me an updated V5c after I sent photo copies - although only Max. permissible mass had been changed to 3850, Revenue Weight & Mass in service remained at 3500, clearly showing the person doing the changes had know idea of how MPM & MIS are arrived at, REVENUE WEIGHT.

As I said above, I cannot see the actual V5C but the Vehicle Enquiry web page shows this as we expected...

Vehicle Details​

Vehicle make MAN
Date of first registration November 2022
Year of manufacture 2022
Cylinder capacity 1968 cc
CO₂ emissions 256 g/km
Fuel type DIESEL
Euro status EURO 6 AR
Real Driving Emissions (RDE) Not available
Export marker No
Vehicle status Taxed
Vehicle colour SILVER
Vehicle type approval N1
Wheel plan 2 AXLE RIGID BODY
Revenue weight 3500 kg
Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 20 June 2024

So I can hit the road running at the DVLA when I am back home!

 

[Emmit]

definition of "revenue Weight" is to be found at Section 60A of the Vehiclees Excise and Registration Act 1994 (it is too lomg to reproduce here!)

Nothing is too long. At least, that's what Mrs Emmit said?
Section 60A

Meaning of “revenue weight”.​

(1)Any reference in this Act to the revenue weight of a vehicle is a reference—

(a)where it has a confirmed maximum weight, to that weight; and

(b)in any other case, to the weight determined in accordance with the following provisions of this section.

(2)For the purposes of this Act a vehicle which does not have a confirmed maximum weight shall have a revenue weight which, subject to the following provisions of this section, is equal to its design weight.

(3)Subject to subsection (4), the design weight of a vehicle is, for the purposes of this section—

(a)in the case of a tractive unit, the weight which is required, by the design and any subsequent adaptations of that vehicle, not to be exceeded by an articulated vehicle which—

(i)consists of the vehicle and any semi-trailer capable of being drawn by it, and

(ii)is in normal use and travelling on a road laden;

and

(b)in the case of any other vehicle, the weight which the vehicle itself is designed or adapted not to exceed when in normal use and travelling on a road laden.

(4)Where, at any time, a vehicle—

(a)does not have a confirmed maximum weight,

(b)has previously had such a weight, and

(c)has not acquired a different design weight by reason of any adaptation made since the most recent occasion on which it had a confirmed maximum weight,

the vehicle’s design weight at that time shall be equal to its confirmed maximum weight on that occasion.

(5)An adaptation reducing the design weight of a vehicle shall be disregarded for the purposes of this section unless it is a permanent adaptation.

(6)For the purposes of this Act where—

(a)a vehicle which does not have a confirmed maximum weight is used on a public road in the United Kingdom, and

(b)at the time when it is so used—

(i)the weight of the vehicle, or

(ii)in the case of a tractive unit used as part of an articulated vehicle consisting of the vehicle and a semi-trailer, the weight of the articulated vehicle,

exceeds what, apart from this subsection, would be the vehicle’s design weight,

it shall be conclusively presumed, as against the person using the vehicle, that the vehicle has been temporarily adapted so as to have a design weight while being so used equal to the actual weight of the vehicle or articulated vehicle at that time.

(7)For the purposes of this Act limitations on the space available on a vehicle for carrying a load shall be disregarded in determining the weight which the vehicle is designed or adapted not to exceed when in normal use and travelling on a road laden.

(8)A vehicle which does not have a confirmed maximum weight shall not at any time be taken to have a revenue weight which is greater than the maximum laden weight at which that vehicle or, as the case may be, an articulated vehicle consisting of that vehicle and a semi-trailer may lawfully be used in Great Britain.

(9)A vehicle has a confirmed maximum weight at any time if at that time—

(a)it has a plated gross weight or a plated train weight; and

(b)that weight is the maximum laden weight [F2which must not be equalled or exceeded in order for] that vehicle or, as the case may be, an articulated vehicle consisting of that vehicle and a semi-trailer [F3to lawfully] be used in Great Britain;

and the confirmed maximum weight of a vehicle with such a weight shall be taken to be the weight referred to in paragraph (a).

(10)Where any vehicle has a special maximum weight in Northern Ireland which is greater than the maximum laden weight at which that vehicle or, as the case may be, an articulated vehicle consisting of that vehicle and a semi-trailer may lawfully be used in Great Britain, this section shall have effect, in relation to that vehicle, as if the references to Great Britain in subsections (8) and (9) were references to Northern Ireland.

(11)For the purposes of this section a vehicle has a special maximum weight in Northern Ireland if an order under Article 29(3) of the M1Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 (authorisation of use on roads of vehicles and trailers not complying with regulations) has effect in relation to that vehicle for determining the maximum laden weight at which it may lawfully be used in Northern Ireland or, as the case may be, for determining the maximum laden weight at which an articulated vehicle consisting of that vehicle and a semi-trailer may lawfully be used there.]

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[The Artilleryman]

As I said above, I cannot see the actual V5C but the Vehicle Enquiry web page shows this as we expected...

Vehicle Details​

Vehicle make MAN
Date of first registration November 2022
Year of manufacture 2022
Cylinder capacity 1968 cc
CO₂ emissions 256 g/km
Fuel type DIESEL
Euro status EURO 6 AR
Real Driving Emissions (RDE) Not available
Export marker No
Vehicle status Taxed
Vehicle colour SILVER
Vehicle type approval N1
Wheel plan 2 AXLE RIGID BODY
Revenue weight 3500 kg
Date of last V5C (logbook) issued 20 June 2024

So I can hit the road running at the DVLA when I am back home!

I suspect you will have a letter stating that you cannot change the revenue weight, but they have changed "Max. permissible mass"

Problem is that any system that uses DVLA's data base to charge for clean air zones, bridge weights etc. uses "Revenue Weight"

Also it is "Revenue Weight" which defines whether it is a Light Goods or Heavy Goods, IE under or over 3500kg

 

[The Artilleryman]

If this system uses "Revenue Weight", then have the wrong weight will at best cause you inconvenience, at worst prohibition.

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[gus-lopez]

M1 = vehicle designed to carry passengers (IE car)

Same here, M1 is passenger carrying vehicle with up to 8 seats.

And can also be a mini bus which is van based.

 

[MichaelT]

And can also be a mini bus which is van based.

I guess up to 8 seats

 

[rod_vw]

I've been doing a bit of research on-line in DVLA and other Government documents and have pulled out the following which in my opinion negates opinion of Stephanie Davies (DVLA Casework Unit) who I believe may be the be the only signatory to such letters.
Please would anyone else who has received such a letter recently stating that the VED of their Motorcaravan must remain unchanged although the MAM has been increased above 3,500kg please confirm if their letter came from the same person.

From https://assets.publishing.service.g...e6f0013e8d967/v149x1-rates-of-vehicle-tax.pdf -- Dated 7/23

“Rates of vehicle tax

V149/1 Rates of Vehicle Tax

Rates of vehicle tax for heavy goods vehicles, special vehicles , private heavy goods vehicles, small island
vehicles, buses, combined transport, recovery vehicles and general haulage vehicles.”

From

https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/glossary/

“Special-purpose Vehicle

Means a vehicle intended to perform a function which requires special body arrangements and/or equipment, such as a
motor caravan , an ambulance or a wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV).”

It is my belief that a Motor Caravan weighing between 3,500kg and 7,500kg should thus be in the VED Band A0 which in the document V149/1 attracts a VED charge of £165 per annum.

Also refer to…

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-motorhomes


In particular the first paragraph…

“ Motorhomes

The rate of vehicle tax is based on the vehicle’s revenue weight (also known as maximum or gross vehicle weight).”

Note that all three definitions are considered to be the same.

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[nicholsong]

I've been doing a bit of research on-line in DVLA and other Government documents and have pulled out the following which in my opinion negates opinion of Stephanie Davies (DVLA Casework Unit) who I believe may be the be the only signatory to such letters.
Please would anyone else who has received such a letter recently stating that the VED of their Motorcaravan must remain unchanged although the MAM has been increased above 3,500kg please confirm if their letter came from the same person.

From https://assets.publishing.service.g...e6f0013e8d967/v149x1-rates-of-vehicle-tax.pdf -- Dated 7/23

“Rates of vehicle tax

V149/1 Rates of Vehicle Tax

Rates of vehicle tax for heavy goods vehicles, special vehicles , private heavy goods vehicles, small island
vehicles, buses, combined transport, recovery vehicles and general haulage vehicles.”

From

https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/glossary/

“Special-purpose Vehicle

Means a vehicle intended to perform a function which requires special body arrangements and/or equipment, such as a
motor caravan , an ambulance or a wheelchair accessible vehicle (WAV).”

It is my belief that a Motor Caravan weighing between 3,500kg and 7,500kg should thus be in the VED Band A0 which in the document V149/1 attracts a VED charge of £165 per annum.

Also refer to…

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-motorhomes


In particular the first paragraph…

“ Motorhomes

The rate of vehicle tax is based on the vehicle’s revenue weight (also known as maximum or gross vehicle weight).”

Note that all three definitions are considered to be the same.

That is similar research to that I conducted and referred to in my post #2 above.

We are in agreement and it baffles me as to how DVLA can come to a different conclusion if they read the same legislation.

 

[The Artilleryman]

I've been doing a bit of research on-line in DVLA and other Government documents and have pulled out the following which in my opinion negates opinion of Stephanie Davies (DVLA Casework Unit) who I believe may be the be the only signatory to such letters.
Please would anyone else who has received such a letter recently stating that the VED of their Motorcaravan must remain unchanged although the MAM has been increased above 3,500kg please confirm if their letter came from the same person.

Mine is is signed by Robert Lloyd (Vehicle Casework Unit)

 

[rod_vw]

Mine is is signed by Robert Lloyd (Vehicle Casework Unit)

Thank you, I know someone in the know who is collating the signatories so I will let him know.

 

[rod_vw]

That is similar research to that I conducted and referred to in my post #2 above.

We are in agreement and it baffles me as to how DVLA can come to a different conclusion if they read the same legislation.

nicholsong , were the references that I have found the same ones that you found in the past do you think?

 

[Bazzagas]

DVLA have recently been refusing to change the tax class on any motorhome that is up plated to more than 3500KG. The letter they send out is incorrect, as they are saying that they cannot change the tax code, but only change the Maximum permissible mass (to the new weight).

This leaves the revenue weight & mass in service weights at 3500.

Clearly we could end up being done for being overweight.

Also ANY vehicle over 3500KG is automatically classed PHGV.

I have spoken to SVTech about this and they are aware of this issue and have raised this with several bodies including the NCC.

Clearly somebody at DVLA has got a bee in there bonnet about the number of motorhomes up plating and getting VED refunds and has decided to refuse to change the tax class.

One would hope this can be sorted quickly but I suspect not.

Dvla is the worst organisation in this country...they are a disgrace and should be scrapped...its a pile of junk...

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[Ralphey]

DVLA have recently been refusing to change the tax class on any motorhome that is up plated to more than 3500KG. The letter they send out is incorrect, as they are saying that they cannot change the tax code, but only change the Maximum permissible mass (to the new weight).

This leaves the revenue weight & mass in service weights at 3500.

Clearly we could end up being done for being overweight.

Also ANY vehicle over 3500KG is automatically classed PHGV.

I have spoken to SVTech about this and they are aware of this issue and have raised this with several bodies including the NCC.

Clearly somebody at DVLA has got a bee in there bonnet about the number of motorhomes up plating and getting VED refunds and has decided to refuse to change the tax class.

One would hope this can be sorted quickly but I suspect not.

Their

 

[FrankNicklin]

Is this about not issuing refunds on up-plating or about the VED going forwards. I can sort of understand not issuing a refund to a point, naughty for sure, but are they saying that at renewal the VED will be £165 or not because that is clearly wrong.

 

[David and Sally]

Up plated a couple of months ago. Both weights on the V5 changed and refund in a few days.

 

[nicholsong]

nicholsong , were the references that I have found the same ones that you found in the past do you think?

Sorry, I cannot be sure as it was more than 3 years ago and I did not keep the material, but the logic and conclusions were the same.

 

[rod_vw]

Is this about not issuing refunds on up-plating or about the VED going forwards. I can sort of understand not issuing a refund to a point, naughty for sure, but are they saying that at renewal the VED will be £165 or not because that is clearly wrong.

Primarily it is about them refusing to change the VED rate. This seems to be a new decision that has been made arbitrarily by a department without any change in legislation. This is permanent not just the current taxation period.
Previously (up to about a month ago) when a under 3500kg vehicle was up-plated to fall within the 3500kg to 7000kg class it was changed into the Private heavy goods VED (TC10) rate and a refund issued for any pre paid tax at the previous Private or light goods (TC11) rate.

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[gus-lopez]

Dvla is the worst organisation in this country...

It isn't though it is in Wales?

 

[Tigger-Tim]

Primarily it is about them refusing to change the VED rate. This seems to be a new decision that has been made arbitrarily by a department without any change in legislation. This is permanent not just the current taxation period.
Previously (up to about a month ago) when a under 3500kg vehicle was up-plated to fall within the 3500kg to 7000kg class it was changed into the Private heavy goods VED (TC10) rate and a refund issued for any pre paid tax at the previous Private or light goods (TC11) rate.

It does seem strange to pay less tax on a heavier vehicle.

I wonder if they'll be making representations to the Government to change it.

 

[Bazzagas]

It isn't though it is in Wales?

My mistake..
Dvla is the worst organisation in the UK...

 

[JockandRita]

It isn't though it is in Wales?

It's still the UK Richard, ie, there is no such thing as an English/Scottish/Welsh Driving Licence, though I do believe there is a Northern Ireland version.

The DVLA honestly don't seem to know their own rules, regs, or legislation as laid down by government. It is down to us the licence holders, to keep ourselves within the UK law, as well as that of any country we drive in, but it shouldn't be down to Joe Public to badger and chase DVLA, when they clearly get it wrong so often.

Jock.

 

[68c]

My mistake..
Dvla is the worst organisation in the UK...

Simple, some MP somewhere has a large motorhome.

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[Bazzagas]

It's still the UK Richard, ie, there is no such thing as an English/Scottish/Welsh Driving Licence, though I do belive there is a Northern Ireland version.

The DVLA honestly don't seem to know their own rules, regs, or legislation as laid down by government. It is down to us the licence holders, to keep ourselves within the UK law, as well as that of any country we drive in, but it shouldn't be down to Joe Public to badger and chase DVLA, when they clearly get it wrong so often.

Jock.

And that's a regular occurrence...