Drama at Peterborough - underhand indeed!

[eddie]

I tow a Terios 4 x 4 behind my Winnebago

I don't have many concerns regards the legality of the situation as it is, I accept a grey area in my opinion.

A car can never be considered "fully legally" a trailer as far as I am concerned as the car cannot be reversed due to the castoring (sic) of the front wheels.

I know full well that if the RV / Car is in a straight line we can go backwards a bit, and there is a little left/right movement, but you could not say that a car with pivoting front wheels can be safely reversed under control around a bend for example.

I say this with years of experience towing a 27" RIB/trailer combo behind cira 30 foot RV's

Eddie

 

[Geo]

I tow a Terios 4 x 4 behind my Winnebago

I don't have many concerns regards the legality of the situation as it is, I accept a grey area in my opinion.

A car can never be considered "fully legally" a trailer as far as I am concerned as the car cannot be reversed due to the castoring (sic) of the front wheels.

I know full well that if the RV / Car is in a straight line we can go backwards a bit, and there is a little left/right movement, but you could not say that a car with pivoting front wheels can be safely reversed under control around a bend for example.

I say this with years of experience towing a 27" RIB/trailer combo behind cira 30 foot RV's

Eddie

I agree totally with what your saying, but would point out in defence of A frames the regulations make no mention of how far and certainly dont suggest any manoeuvre that requires a left or right turn, it simply says capable of reversing without the brakes being applied.
I personally use a Brake Buddy with my A frame and like you believe I'm operating in a grey area, until someone comes up with a system that applies the hand brake in a conventional manner IE direct cable to rear shoes then they are all outside the trailer regs as far as I see it
New Mot regs outlawing use of hydraulic hand brakes, are being applied to quads, they will have to have cable opeated systems installed.
This is despite EU regs saying they are OK and legal in other parts of the EU

The Brake buddy is a tried and tested system and has an Air Reserve in the event of electrical failure
This new system hasn't made mention of what happens if the fuse blows, I assume it simply fails to work
The brake buddy uses the same breakaway pin as it seems this new system does, its always on show and if pulled out would not flatten a battery as when left its simply switched off
Does this new system not have an on/off switchoh:
Geo

 

[BobProperty]

Meanwhile, your unibrake website really needs a makeover, its hard on the eyes with poor design, if you would like a quote for a rebuild send me a PM. i could make it look like it should

Yes, there's no yellow highlighting anywhere....

 

[Elvis]

Below is an old thread and contains the information with regard to spain and AFrames and legallity. I actually think they are a great idea but untill a test case is done and won and legislation passed so they are no longer a grey area over here or in Brussels you will not get the spanish to accept them. This has been aired time and time again but untill laws are passed its a case of your choice but dont moan when fined. To comply with specific regulations EU or otherwise unfortunately doesnt mean it complys with the law, it means its up to a certain standard to be deemed ok to use

Link Removed

I am not knocking AFrames at all but i do think you guys that are in that market need to push for legislatation to make them deffinately legal as opposed to being a grey area. It appears to be a very good product but you do need to get the lawmakers on your side.

Yes I am aware of the above legislation but as I say again, it does not apply to a car that has been legally converted into a 'trailer'.... much like a caravan (or are they illegal in the EU as well now ) , both have independant braking systems (an satisfy some other regs) .

There is no 'Grey area', the law is the law :shout::shout::shout::shout:

 

[Elvis]

I tow a Terios 4 x 4 behind my Winnebago

A car can never be considered "fully legally" a trailer as far as I am concerned as the car cannot be reversed due to the castoring (sic) of the front wheels.

I know full well that if the RV / Car is in a straight line we can go backwards a bit, and there is a little left/right movement, but you could not say that a car with pivoting front wheels can be safely reversed under control around a bend for example.

Eddie

The law is clear (not Grey :shout , you must be able to reverse the 'trailer' and you must be able to do it without drag and without the 'trailer' brakes applying by themselves, no need to travel around a bend oh: Although I might be going around the bend pretty soon!

Thus, if the towing system converts the toad to adhere to the above ( and the rest of the regs) , then it becomes a legal Trailer :thumb:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[olley]

I have never personally met one who has been fined.... have you all?

loddy on facts got stopped and fined for using an A frame in spain, he posted the paperwork that he received. Basically the Spanish do not accept that its a trailer, as far as they are concerned its a car on tow, and in Spain a car on tow must be on a trailer.

Ian

 

[Elvis]

rare though

loddy on facts got stopped and fined for using an A frame in spain, he posted the paperwork that he received. Basically the Spanish do not accept that its a trailer, as far as they are concerned its a car on tow, and in Spain a car on tow must be on a trailer.

Ian

Sadly it does happen, although it's very rare but towing system firms, which have products that are legal in Spain, can not be held responsible for the odd Spanish plod, who ignore the law by choice or ignorance :Sad:

I have spoken to people who have toured all around Spain having never been stopped, one who said they were stopped but only because the Plod was curious as he had never seen an A'frame before . And 2 couples who said the Police had stopped them and once they had seen the frame had independant braking let them go

It's not a 'grey area' in Spain, it's the lack of knowledge of some of the Spanish Police (or just trying their luck! ). A Certificate of compliance, in Spanish, should stop this

 

[Elvis]

Mis-quote

I would be interested to know where you obtained these statistics from. Not a single English tourist has been fined for using an A-Frame.:Sad:

That's a massive mis-quote Buttons Shame on you

I did not say that at all, I said none have been dragged through the Spanish Courts!!! The Police stop and fine not the Courts.... Lawyers and Courts have to know the law... the Police quite often don't or choose not too

 

[Jim]

If you have a partner that does not drive, or you travel alone, being asked to unhitch the toad has to be a much bigger inconvenience that the fine

 

[Elvis]

agreed

If you have a partner that does not drive, or you travel alone, being asked to unhitch the toad has to be a much bigger inconvenience that the fine

I have heard that has happend before but not first hand. I think a cert of compliance would avoid this rare situation though

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[Peter JohnsCross MH]

I would doubt very much if Jim would kick arse as you are a member and its not like blatant advertising if you just let all the Funsters know about a new product.

Fun isn't like somewhere else!

Peter

 

[scotjimland]

Towing of a vehicle by means of an auto-caravan

The Spanish regulations on towing .. with Google translation ..
in a nutshell.. A Frames are not legal in Spain..



ASUNTO: REMOLQUE DE UN VEHICULO POR MEDIO DE UNA AUTO-CARAVANA
En cumplimiento a su correo electrinico de fecha 01 del presente mes de
marzo, dimanante del fax de la Agregaduria de la
Embajada de Espana en Paris, num. 49, de fecha 22/02/10, a traves de la cual
un ciudadano frances solicita informacion
relativa a la legislacion aplicable en Espana para circular con una
autocaravana que "remolca" un vehiculo marca "Secma,
modelo Fun Tech", el cual iria enganchado a dicha autocaravana por medio de
una barra rigida sujeta a chasis del vehiculo,
circulando unicamente sobre las dos ruedas de atras al ir las de delante
suspendidas, (de forma similar a la reflejada en
la foto inserta a continuacion), por esta Escuela de Trafico se emite el
siguiente INFORME;
El Real Decreto 2822/1998, de 23 de diciembre (BOE num. 22, de 26 de enero
de 1.999), por el que se aprueba el Reglamento
General de Vehiculos, en su articulo 9.3) - Conjuntos de vehiculos-,
DETERMINA:
"Los vehiculos de motor no podran remolcar a otro vehiculo de motor, salvo
en el caso de que este se encuentre accidentado
o averiado y no pueda ser arrastrado por otro especificamente destinado a
este fin, supuesto en que esta permitido el
arrastre hasta la localidad o lugar mas proximo donde pueda quedar
convenientemente inmovilizado y sin entorpecer la
circulacion, y siempre que no se circule por autopistas ni autovias".
SUBJECT: TOWING OF A VEHICLE BY MEANS OF AN AUTO-CARAVAN
Pursuant to your desktop email dated 01 March this month, arising from the
facsimile of the Attaché of
Spanish Embassy in Paris, no. 49, dated 22/02/10, through which a French
citizen information requests
on the legislation applicable in Spain to travel with a motorhome that "tows" a
vehicle marked "Secman,
Fun Tech model, which coupled to the motor home would go through a rigid
bar attached to the chassis of the vehicle,
ply only on the two back wheels to go the front suspended (similar to that
reflected in
insert the photo below), so Traffic School Report is issued following;
The Royal Decree 2822/1998 of 23 December (BOE no. 22, 26 January 1999),
which approves the Regulation
Car General, in Article 9.3) - Vehicle Sets-FINDS:"The motor vehicle may not
tow another motor vehicle, except that this is rough
or damaged and can not be dragged by another specifically for this purpose,
provided that this allowed
drag to the location or the nearest place where it can be conveniently
immobilized and not hinder the
circulation, and if not traveling on highways and motorway network.
page 2
Teniendo en cuenta que "el remolque de un vehiculo, como accion, significa el
arrastre del mismo por otro", debemos
acudir al Real Decreto 1428/2003, de 21 de Noviembre (BOE. num. 306, de
23/12/03), por el que se aprueba el
Reglamento General de Circulacion, el cual en su articulo 130.5), viene a
confirmar lo ya expuesto en el Reglamento
General de Vehiculos, al establecer:
"El remolque de un vehiculo averiado o accidentado solo debera realizarse por
otro especificamente destinado a
este fin. Excepcionalmente, y siempre en condiciones de seguaridad, se
permitira el arrastre por otros
vehiculos, pero solo hasta el lugar mas proximo donde pueda quedar
convenientemente inmovilizado y sin entorpecer
la circulacion. En ningun caso sera aplicable dicha excepcion en las autopistas
o autovias".
La Guia Codicicada de Infracciones de la Direccion General de Trafico, en su
edicion correspondiente al mes
de Noviembre de 2.008, en el mentado articulo 130.5), recoge como
infraccion, tras remision a dicho articulo por
el 9.3) del Reglamento de Vehiculos:
Establecido el hecho de que, de conformidad con la normativa espanola antes
referida, no esta permitido el
que un vehiculo de motor remolque a otro, y mas concretamente por medio
de una autocaravana, que es lo
que pretente el ciudadano frances, debemos acudir, para una mayor
informacion el respecto, a lo dispuesto
por la Direccion General de Trafico, en lo sucesivo DGT, en su INSTRUCCION
08/V-74, de fecha 28 de
enero de 2.008 Asunto: Autocaravanas, a traves de la cual se procedio a
recopilar e interpretar en un unico
documento todos aquellos aspectos normativos que, relacionados con el
autocaravanismo, se recogen en
la legislacion sobre trafico y circulacion de vehiculos a motor, en su punto 8,-
Transporte de vehiculos auxiliares,
determinada que:
"Es muy frecuente el transporte por las autocaravanas de vehiculos auxiliares
normalmente bicicleta,
un ciclomotor o una motocicleta de pequena cilindrada. Esta practica esta
autorizada siempre que se
utilice un portabicicletas homologado o una plataforma destinada a esta
finalidad y, cuando sobresalga
de la proyeccion en planta de la autocaravana, se cumplan los siguientes
requistos conforme a lo dispuesto
en el articulos 15 del Reglamento General de Circulacion.
Que sobresalga de la proyeccion en planta de la autocaravana, por la parte
posterior, hasta un 10% de su
longitud y si fuera un solo vehiculo (carga indivisible), un 15%.
Que se adoptem todas las precauciones convenientes para evitar danos o
peligros a lost demas usuarios
de la via publica, debiendo ir resguardada la extremidad saliente para
aminorar los efectos de un roce o
choque posibles.
------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------
------------------------------------ ------------------------
Given that "a vehicle trailer, as action, drag it means the other", we
go to Royal Decree 1428/2003 of 21 November (BOE. no. 306 from 23/12/03)
for approving the
Rules of the road, which in article 130.5), confirms what is stated in
Regulation
Car General, to establish:
"The towing of a vehicle breakdown or accident shall only be performed by
another specifically for
this purpose. Exceptionally, and always able to seguaridad, be allowed to drag
other
vehicles, but only up to the nearest location where it can be conveniently and
without disrupting plant
circulation. In no event shall apply this exception in the highway or motorway.
The Guide Codicicada Violations of the Traffic Department, in its edition for the
month
November 2008, in the article mented 130.5), contains such breach, after
reference to that article by
9.3) of the Rules of Vehicles:
Established the fact that, in accordance with Spanish legislation referred to
above, is not allowed
a motor vehicle towing another, and more specifically by means of a motor
home, which is what
they intend on French citizens, we must look for a more information respect to
the provisions
by the Direccion General de Trafico, hereinafter DGT, in your instructions
08/V-74, dated 28
January 2008 Subject: Motor homes, through which they proceeded to collect
and interpret in a single
document all regulatory aspects related to the campers, was found in
traffic laws and motor vehicle traffic, in point 8, "Transportation of vehicles
ancillary
determined that
"It is very common transport auxiliary motor caravans of vehicles normally
cycling
a moped or small motorcycle engines. This practice is permitted provided that
use an approved carrier or a platform for this purpose and, where protruding
of screening in the motor plant, to meet the following Réquista accordance
in Article 15 of the Rules of the road.
Projection from the projection in the motor plant, on the back, up to 10% of
length and if it were a single vehicle (indivisible load), 15%.
Adopt me that all appropriate precautions to prevent damage or danger to
other users lost
road, the limb must be protected overhang to lessen the effects of friction or
possible collision
page 3
Debera senalizarse por medio de la senal V-20 a que se refiere el articulo 173
y cuyas carateristicas
se establecen en el anexo XI del Reglamento General de Vehiculos. Esta senal
se colocara en el
extremo posterior de la carga de manera que quede constantemente
perpendicular al eje del vehiculo.
Se han formulado tambien consultas en relacion con la posibilidad de que una
autocaravana circule
remolcando a un turismo, DICHA POSIBILIDAD ESTA PROHIBIDA en el articulo
9.3 del Reglamento
General de Vehiculos que no permite la circulacion de un vehiculo a motor
arrastrando a otro, salvo
que ese se encuentre averiado o accidentado y no pueda ser arrastrado por
otro especificamente
destinado a tal fin, en cuyo caso se permite su arrastre hasta la localidad o
lugar mas proximo donde
pueda puedar inmovilizado sin entorpecer la circulacion y siempre que no
circule por autopista o
autovia.
Sin perjuicio de lo anterior, la circulacion de un conjunto de vehiculos
integrado por una autocaravana
y un remolque o semirremolque sobre el cual se transporte otro vehiculo, esta
permitida si el conjunto
reune las condiciones para la cirulacion por las via publicas y esta homologado
conforme a las
Directivas 70/156/CEE y 94/20/CEE y ademas no supere la longitud maxima
autorizada para estos
conjuntos que es de 18,75 metros para los remolques y 16,50 metros para los
semirremolques.
De igual manera, al hilo de la pregunta formulada por el ciudadano frances,
cabe destacar que de
conformidad con lo dispuesto por la DGT, en su INSTRUCCION 02/S-56, de
fecha 22 de enero
de 2.002, sobre "Improcedencia de formulacion de denuncias por utilizacion
de disportivos de
elevacion y arrastreestamos refiriendo, no le es de aplicacion a los
portavehiculos, ya que
segun dicha Instruccion: de vehiculos para su traslado en trayectos de largo
recorrido", contempla que
la prohibicion a la que nos
------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
------------------------------------------------ -
They must be signposted by the sign V-20 referred to Article 173 and whose
characteristics
are set out in Annex XI of the Regulations on Vehicles. This sign will be placed
in the
rear cargo so that it is constantly perpendicular to the axis of the vehicle.
They have also made inquiries in relation to the possibility that a motor to
circulate
towing a passenger car, this possibility is prohibited by Article 9.3 of
Regulation
General Car that does not allow the movement of a motor vehicle, dragging
another, unless
that is damaged or injured and can not be dragged by another specifically
for that purpose, in which case they are allowed to drag to the closest town or
place where
can be fixed without hindering the circulation and if not traveling on highway
or
motorway.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination of vehicles
composed of a motorhome
and a trailer or semitrailer which is carried on another vehicle, is permitted if
all
meets the conditions for cirulacion by public roads and approved in accordance
with the
Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum
length allowed for these
joint is 18.75 meters to 16.50 meters for trailers and semi-trailers
Similarly, in line with the question posed by French citizens, it should be noted
that
accordance with the DGT, in your instructions 02/S-56, dated January 22
of 2002, on "permissible to file complaints by utilization of disported
arrastreestamos elevation and talking, it is not apply to carriers, because
according to the Instruction: a car for transportation in long-haul routes,
provided that
prohibition to which we
page 4"
....la prohibicion establecida en el citado articulo 9.3) del Reglamento General
de Vehiculos
se refiere a los vehiculos de motor no espcificamente destinados a este fin,
que podran remolcar,
unicamente a otro averiado o accidentado en las condiciones y con las
limitaciones que se
expresan en dicho precepto.
En consecuencia los vehiculos especialmente disenados y concebidos para
realizar estas
funciones, como es el caso de los camiones portavehiculos que llevan
instalado un dispositivo
de elevacion y arrastre, pueden remolcar un vehiculo de manera que uno de
los ejes repose
sobre la calzada y, por lo tanto, no deberan ser objeto de denuncia aunque se
realice el
traslado en trayectos de largo recorrido".
Del analisis legislativo referido al tema en cuestion, debemos concluir por
consiguiente
que el hecho de circular una caravana remolcando un vehiculo, el cual iria
enganchado
a la caravana por medio de una barra rigida sujeta al chasis del vehiculo,
circulando
unicamente sobre las dos ruedas de atras al ir las de delante suspendidas,
aunque el
sistema de alumbrado vaya conectado al vehiculo tractor, NO ESTA
PERMITIDA EN LA
LEGISLACION ESPANOLA.
---------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------
--------------------------------- -
".... The prohibition contained in the said Article 9.3) of the Regulations on
Vehicles
refers to motor vehicles espcificamente not intended for that purpose, which
may tow
only to a breakdown or accident on the conditions and limitations that
expressed in that provision.Consequently, the specially designed vehicles and
designed to perform these
functions, such as Carriers truck carrying a device installed
lift and drag, can tow a vehicle so that one of the main rest
on the road and, therefore, should not be denounced but is performed
service in long-haul routes. "
Referred to the legislative analysis of the topic in question, we must conclude
therefore
that the failure to move a vehicle towing a caravan, which combined iria
the caravan by a rigid bar attached to the vehicle body, circulating
only on the two back wheels to go the front suspended, although the
lighting system be connected to the tractor vehicle, ARE NOT PERMITTED IN
THE
SPANISH LEGISLATION

 

[Elvis]

slap

I would doubt very much if Jim would kick arse as you are a member and its not like blatant advertising if you just let all the Funsters know about a new product.

Fun isn't like somewhere else!

Peter

I know Peter but he might slap my botty just a bit too hard though...oooerr :Blush:

 

[Bailey58]

It's 10.45, it's about time this thread was put to bed! :Nowink:

 

[Elvis]

been there done that

The Spanish regulations on towing .. with Google translation ..
in a nutshell.. A Frames are not legal in Spain..

Thanks Jim but with the risk of repeating myself again, we have already dealt with this section of legisllation in past posts; and in a nutshell..... it depends on the towing system as to whether it is legal or not :thumb:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

The Spanish regulations on towing .. with Google translation ..
in a nutshell.. A Frames are not legal in Spain..

Thanks Jim but with the risk of repeating myself again, we have already dealt with this section of legisllation in past posts; and in a nutshell..... it depends on the towing system as to whether it is legal or not :thumb:

My post was merely to give the legislation, not enter the debate.. however..

The Spanish Legislation is very clear and nowhere does is say it depends on the towing system, that is your interpretation .. and with all due respect you are wrong .. but I'm not going to debate further... I posted the legislation for the benefit of others so they can make up their own mind.

The attached thumbnails are from the Spanish Police hand book to aid them identify what an A frame is..

I have no axe to grind and wish your parents every success with their product.

 

[Elvis]

thanks yet again

My post was merely to give the legislation, not enter the debate.. however..

The Spanish Legislation is very clear and nowhere does is say it depends on the towing system, that is your interpretation .. and with all due respect you are wrong .. but I'm not going to debate further... I posted the legislation for the benefit of others so they can make up their own mind.

The attached thumbnails are from the Spanish Police hand book to aid them identify what an A frame is..

I have no axe to grind and wish your parents every success with their product.

Thanks again Jim but it is not MY interpretation but the interpretation of the law by lawyers. And not only am I fully aware the legislation, it has been posted on the threat already and discussed in detail - for the benefit of all. With the greatest respect, your interpretation is incorrect, as it does depend on the system as to whether it is legal or not and if you read the previous posts, this is explained, also in detail.

And I have no doubt that Funsters are more than capable of making up their own minds and will :thumb: I am merely giving the information that I am party to and with good authority and will defend it when called to

 

[Elvis]

Zzzzzzz

It's 10.45, it's about time this thread was put to bed! :Nowink:

Yes please, I am really tired of repeating myself over and over again...Zzzzzzz

 

[Geo]

In a nut shell and to try and make sense of it all I belive the following to be true

It is against the law to tow a motor vehicle in Spain, end of:thumb:

It is permited to tow a trailor in Spain, end of:thumb:

A motor vehicle with an atatched A frame and breaking system is deemed to be a trailer in UK law, end of:thumb:

Whilst in Spain with my A frame and car I am Towing a trailer, my Govenment says so, end of.:thumb:
Uk trailers are permitted in Spain displaying the towing vehicles registration No,end of
:moon::moon::moon::moon:
Geo Minister for common sense UK & EU

 

[Elvis]

Defo end of !!!

Thank you Geo! What a super summary

The only addition is that your towing system must comply with the following, in order to convert your Toad into a UK/EU legal trailer :

The summary of these requirements boil down to the following important points:-

• A trailer under tow, over 750 kg in weight, must have its own brake assistance, which must have at least 50% braking efficiency.
• The trailer under tow should be able to be reversed from the towing vehicle i.e. the Motorhome, without creating a drag; furthermore, such devices used for purpose, must engage and disengage automatically.
• There should be provision to restrain and stop the trailer, in the event of a breakaway from harness.

It is important to note, the article which recently appeared on the:


“UK Motor homes.net”site, dated 24/10/2010:

“The current European type approval legislation for trailers, 71/320/EEC, is due to be rescinded in 2014 and replaced by UN ECE Regulations 13. Part of this regulation (Section 5.2.2.2.) stipulates that inertia braking systems will only be permitted on centre axle trailers. This may mean that it will no longer be possible to use inertia braking systems on A – Frames [mechanical overrun systems] ”.

Nutshell now complete.....

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[olley]

A motor vehicle with an atatched A frame and breaking system is deemed to be a trailer in UK law, end of:thumb:

Whilst in Spain with my A frame and car I am Towing a trailer, my Govenment says so, end of.:thumb:

Your government doesn't say so Geo, the DVLA say in their opinion it is, but as its never been tested in a court?

You put a lump of metal on the front and all of a sudden its a trailer? If you were to ask someone who knew nothing of "A" frames, they would say "look there's a car on tow"

Ian

 

[Elvis]

Oh Jeeeez

Your government doesn't say so Geo, the DVLA say in their opinion it is, but as its never been tested in a court?

You put a lump of metal on the front and all of a sudden its a trailer? If you were to ask someone who knew nothing of "A" frames, they would say "look there's a car on tow"

Ian

How many times...:shout::shout::shout::shout:

Any chance of looking at my previous posts on this thread? No? oh:

There is UK/EU legislation, it is not a 'grey area', the laws are clear and laws do not have to be dragged through a court of law to be valid.... Because! Courts apply the law to the alleged crime, not the other way around! Oh and guess what.... the same principle applied in all EU countries too! The only time the 'law is tested' is if the circumstances of a particular crime does not fit the law.... not the other way around!

Anymore armchair lawyers out there? (manic laughter)

 

[johnp10]

Knowing little about these toad bits of kit, 2 questions:
Are they type approved, and do they therefore have an EU or ECE type approval mark?
If they are / do, they meet all UK and EU safety standards, therefore can be used freely in any EU State.
If type approved, they will have also have either a Type Approval Certificate (TAC) or a Minister's Approval Certificate (MAC) as evidence of meeting appropriate standards.

 

[Elvis]

Knowing little about these toad bits of kit, 2 questions:
Are they type approved, and do they therefore have an EU or ECE type approval mark?
If they are / do, they meet all UK and EU safety standards, therefore can be used freely in any EU State.
If type approved, they will have also have either a Type Approval Certificate (TAC) or a Minister's Approval Certificate (MAC) as evidence of meeting appropriate standards.

There are many towing systems out there John, some will comply with current and or future UK/EU legislation and some will have stickers and certificates and some wont; it will be a matter of investigation I'm afraid

 

[Geo]

Hi Ian
I see where your going wrong Your talking to DVLA and that stands for Driver and Vehicle Licenceing Authority, they have absolutly nothing to do with A frame legislation or offer any advise about the subject
The folk you need are those that deal with the Road traffic acts and construction & use. IE The dept for Transport
Heres what they have to say, I have highlighted the relevent

Dept For Transport

Information Sheet
"A"-Frames and Dollies ​

"A"- Frames ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in [HI]legislation as a [/HI][/FONT][HI]trailer[/HI][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]. As a consequence the car and "A"-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. [HI][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]These requirements are contained within the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR[/FONT][/FONT][/HI][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]). [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]So it looks like me and my Government are right:thumb:[/FONT]
Geo [/FONT]

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[olley]

Sorry the law is not "THE" law, if it was we wouldn't need lawyers. Just because you put a piece of metal on the front of a car doesn't necessarily make it a trailer. Its got Tax, Mot and insurance. To me its a car on tow.

What we need is a change in the legislation eurowide to allow a CAR to be towed by an "A" frame for pleasure purposes, not some fudge with trailer law.

Not knocking "A" frames, I think they are the best way to tow a car, and that to me is what you are towing, a car not a trailer.

Geo your post

we believe the "A" frame
I think that says it all.

Ian

 

[Geo]

Hi Ian
I see where your going wrong Your talking to DVLA and that stands for Driver and Vehicle Licenceing Authority, they have absolutly nothing to do with A frame legislation or offer any advise about the subject
The folk you need are those that deal with the Road traffic acts and construction & use. IE The dept for Transport
Heres what they have to say, I have highlighted the relevent

Dept For Transport

Information Sheet
"A"-Frames and Dollies ​

"A"- Frames ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in [HI]legislation as a [/HI][/FONT][HI]trailer[/HI][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]. As a consequence the car and "A"-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. [HI][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]These requirements are contained within the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR[/FONT][/FONT][/HI][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]). [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]So it looks like me and my Government are right:thumb:[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[olley]

Geo, they "believe" that's not law, that's their interpretation of the law, until its tested in court it won't be "Law".

Do 3 year old cars need a MOT, do cars need taxing; yes, and the relevant legislation can be shown, but there is no legislation that says when you tow a car it becomes a trailer. Just a "belief"

Ian

 

[Geo]

Geo, they "believe" that's not law, that's their interpretation of the law, until its tested in court it won't be "Law".

Do 3 year old cars need a MOT, do cars need taxing; yes, and the relevant legislation can be shown, but there is no legislation that says when you tow a car it becomes a trailer. Just a "belief"

Ian

Your quite right but this is
and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer

 

[Elvis]

Sorry the law is not "THE" law, if it was we wouldn't need lawyers......

Not knocking "A" frames, I think they are the best way to tow a car, and that to me is what you are towing, a car not a trailer.....

Ian

As stated before, lawyers ensure that the correct law is applied to the facts of each indivdual criminal case (or civil if appropriate). Lawyers do not make or change the Law; legislators (Government) make or change the Law oh:

The reason why a Toad must become a Trailer, is because it behaves as a 'trailer' when being towed, not a car, therefore must comply with trailer legislation. The law is correct in this area :thumb:

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