Don't worry about motorhome payload

[haybal]

Hi Funsters,

We have been to look at 2 MH's today at the same dealership, we were told by the sales man if we needed anything just ask, he then left us to look around which was great. Every now and then someone came to check we were ok and to see if we needed any help, then I asked a question about usable payload and was told " Don't worry about payload most people run over weight with the amount of gear they carry.
This wasn't the response I was expecting, so when I ask that if there was an accident and the MH was over weight could that not invalidate the insurance his reply was "probably not".

would appreciate your thoughts on this please, this is our first MH we are looking to buy and want it all above board so to speak.

Cheers,
Barry and Hayley

 

[haybal]

Good luck. If you haven’t already done so,download Jim’s free guide about buying a Moho.

I Have indeed read Jim's guide, it took us ages to look over the 2 MH's opening every cupboard, going through the motions of having a shower, sitting on the loo, making the beds, cooking meals.
Felt a bit strange doing it but needs must.

 

[TheBig1]

i wouldn't write off a dealership based on one salesman's bullshit

 

[Figaro]

Can someone detail the calculation for payload please once you have axle weights ?

 

[Ivory55]

GVW gross vehicle weight is your limit. Axel weight is the max your allowed on each axel. Total weight might be 3500 but you’re confusing the axel weights adding up to more then that.

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[olley]

Its unladen vehicle weight you want, take that from the MAM (Maximum Authorized Mass) and you have the payload.

 

[Richard Drinkwater]

Hi Funsters,

We have been to look at 2 MH's today at the same dealership, we were told by the sales man if we needed anything just ask, he then left us to look around which was great. Every now and then someone came to check we were ok and to see if we needed any help, then I asked a question about usable payload and was told " Don't worry about payload most people run over weight with the amount of gear they carry.
This wasn't the response I was expecting, so when I ask that if there was an accident and the MH was over weight could that not invalidate the insurance his reply was "probably not".

would appreciate your thoughts on this please, this is our first MH we are looking to buy and want it all above board so to speak.

Cheers,
Barry and Hayley

Hi Barry & Hayley,
Sorry to hear of your bad experience, and one which we find happens all too often, and worringly, it's commonly only discovered after the buyers have driven off, and thought they better check the payload.
Manufacturer's MIRO (mass in running order) often has a 5% margin of error (in the small print of the brochure) which means on a 3500kg motorhome, the MIRO could be up to 150kgs higher (v rarely lower!!). In essence that's the weight of 2 people, and could contribute to rendering your MH useless for what you wanted it for, esp when you've added the extras you wanted, eg bike racks, awning, solar etc.
At SvTech, we recommend that everyone looking to buy a MH, asks for a weight ticket for that vehicle, to include the driver & half a tank of fuel. At least this gives you a base point to work from before you drive away, and you are well within your rights to walk away from the deal if the vehicle isn't fit for your purpose. Better to do it before you sign for it, than afterwards. We have direct experience of dealing with post-purchase payload arguments, and it isn't very pleasant for all concerned.
As Jim said, hopefully we will be offering MotorhomeFun members the chance to have their MH weighed on our weigh in motion pads (same as the DVSA use) at a few of the shows this year, ideally on the Thursday as members arrive. we will let you all know in due course.
Remember Weigh before you pay!

 

[haybal]

i wouldn't write off a dealership based one one salesman's bullshit

The "salesman" I believe was infact the owner.

 

[Speve]

Given that a lot of vans seem to have the flexibility to uprate just as a paper exercise I'm not sure I'd accept that necessarily "overweight = unsafe"
Illegal not disputing.

They may have ability to be updated but that involves suspension changes or tyre changes to give the correct weight ratings for tyres and air assist to help the suspension.
IMHO if not done could certainly be unsafe due to instability.

 

[Dilbert]

Being overweight ( vehicle wise) will not invalidate your insurance any more then drunk driving speeding etc most standard motor homes have all the weights in the owners handbook so you can work out your payload .if you can google the info for the model of van it will help your search to save a wasted trip.

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[Figaro]

Its unladen vehicle weight you want, take that from the MAM (Maximum Authorized Mass) and you have the payload.

Is the unladen weight the weight of the whole vehicle in normal travel mode ? or completely empty.
I assume the MAM is the 3900 on this plate ?
Thanks

 

[motorhomer]

Hi Barry & Hayley,
Sorry to hear of your bad experience, and one which we find happens all too often, and worringly, it's commonly only discovered after the buyers have driven off, and thought they better check the payload.
Manufacturer's MIRO (mass in running order) often has a 5% margin of error (in the small print of the brochure) which means on a 3500kg motorhome, the MIRO could be up to 150kgs higher (v rarely lower!!). In essence that's the weight of 2 people, and could contribute to rendering your MH useless for what you wanted it for, esp when you've added the extras you wanted, eg bike racks, awning, solar etc.
At SvTech, we recommend that everyone looking to buy a MH, asks for a weight ticket for that vehicle, to include the driver & half a tank of fuel. At least this gives you a base point to work from before you drive away, and you are well within your rights to walk away from the deal if the vehicle isn't fit for your purpose. Better to do it before you sign for it, than afterwards. We have direct experience of dealing with post-purchase payload arguments, and it isn't very pleasant for all concerned.
As Jim said, hopefully we will be offering MotorhomeFun members the chance to have their MH weighed on our weigh in motion pads (same as the DVSA use) at a few of the shows this year, ideally on the Thursday as members arrive. we will let you all know in due course.
Remember Weigh before you pay!

Sound advice!
One of our previous vans was plated 3500 and claimed 3100 MIRO. It had a couple of extras and lots of space. And I thought 400 payload was enough. It wasn't until it was 3 years old - at the MoT as it happens - that it was weighed and I learned that it was running at about 3700. I guess 5% tolerance plus some extras probably took 200 off the 400 theoretical payload and 200 remaining was simply not enough! I know I should have weighed it earlier but didn't - I have done with vans I have had since. Seems unfair that manufacturers are allowed 5% in the MIRO but there is no such allowance in the MGW. As I no know, it is certainly an area to be careful about, if there was an accident you could be liable to a third party for much more than just the value of the van itself.

 

[Speve]

Is the unladen weight the weight of the whole vehicle in normal travel mode ? or completely empty.
I assume the MAM is the 3900 on this plate ?
Thanks

View attachment 221373

Completely empty
Top to bottom on your plate
GVW
GTVW
Front axle
Rear axle

 

[Ivory55]

Gtvw is max weight towing a trailer

 

[Larrynwin]

They may have ability to be updated but that involves suspension changes or tyre changes to give the correct weight ratings for tyres and air assist to help the suspension.
IMHO if not done could certainly be unsafe due to instability.

Not necessarily if the mhome has been down rated previously it should be no problem reverting to original gvw etc and original converters plate will be on show under hood.

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[Langtoftlad]

They may have ability to be updated but that involves suspension changes or tyre changes to give the correct weight ratings for tyres and air assist to help the suspension.
IMHO if not done could certainly be unsafe due to instability.

Not 100% true - my van has a plated limit of front axle 1850kg, rear 2000kgs, however SvTech has advised me that I can update +200kg without any mechanical changes, ie paper exercise only - so ipso facto, I can safely (but not legally) overload my van to 3700kg.

To go to axle limits I do have to add air assist.
To increase rear axle limits I have to change tyres.

So, I stand by my devils advocate point that overloading isn't necessarily unsafe.
Illegal yes, inadvisable certainly.

 

[Speve]

Not 100% true - my van has a plated limit of front axle 1850kg, rear 2000kgs, however SvTech has advised me that I can update +200kg without any mechanical changes, ie paper exercise only - so ipso facto, I can safely (but not legally) overload my van to 3700kg.

To go to axle limits I do have to add air assist.
To increase rear axle limits I have to change tyres.

So, I stand by my devils advocate point that overloading isn't necessarily unsafe.
Illegal yes, inadvisable certainly.

Point taken but at the end of the day dealers should not be giving advise not to worry about overloading after all it’s not their licence or head on the block is it

 

[Speve]

Not necessarily if the mhome has been down rated previously it should be no problem reverting to original gvw etc and original converters plate will be on show under hood.

Agreed but surely the dealer would be helping to remedy this for a prospective sale not just saying don’t worry most vans run overweight IMV poor salesman who is after his commission.not on

 

[Langtoftlad]

Seems unfair that manufacturers are allowed 5% in the MIRO but there is no such allowance in the MGW

In reality, DVSA also allow 5%
"A £100 penalty will be given for a 0% to 9.99% overload, but DVSA examiners will allow a 5% leeway before issuing a fixed penalty or prohibition, unless the relevant weight has been exceeded by 1 tonne or more."
So IMO fairness all around.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Point taken but at the end of the day dealers should not be giving advise not to worry about overloading after all it’s not their licence or head on the block is it

No argument from me.

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[motorhomer]

In reality, DVSA also allow 5%
"A £100 penalty will be given for a 0% to 9.99% overload, but DVSA examiners will allow a 5% leeway before issuing a fixed penalty or prohibition, unless the relevant weight has been exceeded by 1 tonne or more."
So IMO fairness all around.

Excellent!
But I guess no-one can be sure that the authorities in Germany, France, Spain, Croatia etc etc will take the same view. Having found myself inadvertently overweight once I will not again!

 

[EuroTrotters]

I think we run close.

In fairness, all three Mercedes Sprinters we had, never liked to be overloaded. Oddly, this old Fiat Ducato seems to handle weight better.

 

[DBK]

Can someone detail the calculation for payload please once you have axle weights ?

That's a good question really, because the answer is to address it at a practical level I think.
Take everything loose out of the vehicle such the BBQ, clothes, bikes etc. Then fill the fuel tank to the top and fill the fresh water tank to maximum as well. Empty the grey tank although if you want to be really safe fill that too as there may be times when you have to travel in a"constipated" state - we've done it often. Next, take it to a weighbridge and see what result you get with the normal number of people aboard.
The difference between the weight measured and the figure shown somewhere on a plate on your vehicle is the effective payload. The plate will show a number of figures but it will be the top one you will be interested in. The other figures are typically gross train weight (with a trailer) and then axle weights. I've called it the effective payload because this is the amount of extra stuff you can add to the vehicle to differentiate it from stricter definitions which don't mean much at a practical level.
To be sure you are legal you then need to repeat the exercise after loading the vehicle with all the stuff you removed. Leaving out anything you think might put you overweight.
I've left out the concept of axle weights above only for simplicity but in addition to the gross weight of the vehicle you also should not exceed the individual axle loads.

 

[Langtoftlad]

There is a conflict between driver licence limits, what consumer's demand in their vehicles and physics.

My first van was an 04 coachbuilt which had a 3300 plate. I was always 200kgs under maximum.
Current van is a PVC, 16cms shorter, max weight 3500kgs which I'm right on.
So between the two, I've added 400kgs .

Dog (+25kg), extra battery, solar panel & a towbar... That doesn't add up to 400kgs surely .

So in a decade - are base vehicles getting heavier?

 

[olley]

Is the unladen weight the weight of the whole vehicle in normal travel mode ? or completely empty.
I assume the MAM is the 3900 on this plate ?
Thanks

View attachment 221373

The unladen weight is supposed to be to a European standard on a new vehicle I believe, half a tank of fuel, all oils and a 70kg driver I think, but manufacturers don't alway quote this correctly . The only way to be sure is a weighbridge.
If its secondhand, have the previous owners added anything? Extra battery, satellite? towbar etc all of these reduce your payload, again only way to be sure is a weighbridge.

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[grumps147]

Being overweight ( vehicle wise) will not invalidate your insurance any more then drunk driving speeding etc most standard motor homes have all the weights in the owners handbook so you can work out your payload .if you can google the info for the model of van it will help your search to save a wasted trip.

I certainly wouldn’t want to rely on my insurance company under those circumstances. While they may settle the third party’s claim, if your vehicle is knowingly dangerously overloaded they will probably drop your side of the claim like a ton of bricks. People need to carefully read their insurance policies.
This link from a defence solicitors site on overweight and the possibility of an all embracing dangerous condition offence warns people clearly of the consequences of what many regard as chancing their arm... https://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/vosa-excess-weight-offences/

 

[Langtoftlad]

That's a good question really, because the answer is to address it at a practical level I think.

Agree - but I do it the other way around - fill the van ready for a trip, all my cr@p, then weigh.
From that I know how much spare capacity I've got ( or how much I've got to take out).

 

[Langtoftlad]

I find it all a mystery, I really do.
My van is a PVC, so a commercial load carrier, that's had some habitation stuff built in.

But given the space to move around in, I find it difficult to perceive that an identical van could be stuffed full of boxes, pallets or crates etc and not be overloaded.

 

[chaser]

I find it all a mystery, I really do.
My van is a PVC, so a commercial load carrier, that's had some habitation stuff built in.

But given the space to move around in, I find it difficult to perceive that an identical van could be stuffed full of boxes, pallets or crates etc and not be overloaded.

This last couple of months as a few of you will know I have been converting an old ambulance, put cooker , water tank, shower and toilet, beds , it already had floor and insulation in, well I weighed it yesterday , it was 2930 kg out of a possible 3500, so plenty left for the wine run.

 

[gus-lopez]

I certainly wouldn’t want to rely on my insurance company under those circumstances. While they may settle the third party’s claim, if your vehicle is knowingly dangerously overloaded they will probably drop your side of the claim like a ton of bricks. People need to carefully read their insurance policies.
This link from a defence solicitors site on overweight and the possibility of an all embracing dangerous condition offence warns people clearly of the consequences of what many regard as chancing their arm... https://www.pattersonlaw.co.uk/vosa-excess-weight-offences/

That applies to "goods , passenger carrying vehicles,& buses" as stated. Nothing about cars, motorhomes.
"41B Breach of requirement as to weight: goods and passenger vehicles.
(1)A person who—
(a)contravenes or fails to comply with a construction and use requirement as to any description of weight applicable to—
(i)a goods vehicle, or
(ii)a motor vehicle or trailer adapted to carry more than eight passengers, or
(b)uses on a road a vehicle which does not comply with such a requirement, or causes or permits a vehicle to be so used, is guilty of an offence.

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[Drexxer]

So in a decade - are base vehicles getting heavier?

Probably, when you look at the skinny A,B,C pillars in vehicles gone by, vehicle safety must have added plenty of KG's though preferable to getting squashed in a bean tin

Andy