Do I need Lithium?

[Langtoftlad]

You asked whether to change to lithium,

No, actually I asked "do I need lithium?"
I'm happy to accept that lithium is a step change upgrade, absolutely no question.

I am trying to settle the dilemma in my mind.
Cost vs benefit

I sort of want the shiny new lithium toy to play with... but having got my sensible head on today...
I was seeing if there were any dissenting voices to the perceived wisdom that lithium is the only realistic option?
And there appears to be.

 

[G-RMPS]

Deleted - brandy-induced finger trouble

 

[Carpmart]

No, actually I asked "do I need lithium?"
I'm happy to accept that lithium is a step change upgrade, absolutely no question.

I am trying to settle the dilemma in my mind.
Cost vs benefit

I sort of want the shiny new lithium toy to play with... but having got my sensible head on today...
I was seeing if there were any dissenting voices to the perceived wisdom that lithium is the only realistic option?
And there appears to be.

But I still don’t follow. Two Banner 100ah Gels are what, £350? One 100ah lithium, the same useable capacity is what, like £350…

Why wouldn’t you go for the lithium?

 

[Langtoftlad]

Cost... not just the battery but also the ancillaries would need to be upgraded...
Maybe if I was doing the installation myself, I could risk just dropping in... but I'm not.

Even lithium can't be run down to zero, so pedantically, 100ah lithium has less usable capacity than 2 gels.

 

[Carpmart]

Cost... not just the battery but also the ancillaries would need to be upgraded...
Maybe if I was doing the installation myself, I could risk just dropping in... but I'm not.

Even lithium can't be run down to zero, so pedantically, 100ah lithium has less usable capacity than 2 gels.

As I said previously Stephen, there is loads of mis representation and information WRT charging sources for a lithium battery. It will work quite happily on your existing gel settings on both solar and mains charger.

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[Langtoftlad]

As I said previously Stephen, there is loads of mis representation and information WRT charging sources for a lithium battery. It will work quite happily on your existing gel settings on both solar and mains charger.

It may very well do, and indeed that is what I was hoping, but if the "professionals" aren't willing to do the installation and I'm not able/willing to DIY.

I'm still hoping someone will come up with a new killer reason why I should stump up the extra.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Dare I say... it's like Starlink vs MiFi

 

[the1andonly]

I have no intention of installing lithium in my van. I all ready have and was the best decision ive made. The 2 Banners were knackered after 2 years (possibily earlier been stood for a year)when she who must be obeyed cant watch telly for an hour one day a week then thats a poor show John.(my ears no longer hurt if you want the killer reason)( and i'd also stuffed up FLAs in my Bongo, pherhaps i'm just no good at looker after FLAs.) The Original wiring was weedy and a micky mouse solar controller that i replaced within the year for a Votronics. The rate of charging makes a 100AH usable. didnt waste any money on a new EHU charger the Gel setting is suitable if needed.

 

[Ray-Vic]

I'm still hoping someone will come up with a new killer reason why I should stump up the extra.

There is none. If gel batteries work for you, which they evidently do, and provide all the power you need, why would you need to even consider lithium?

 

[DavidG58]

My biggest fear was cooking my alternator, our MH is built on a 2005 chassis, I have no idea if Mercedes alternators of that age can give enough power to please lithium

I have no idea what an alternator costs but I wasn’t prepared to take the chance , particularly if I would also have had to give away my new lithium battery and buy the gels after all

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[Langtoftlad]

Have been considering because replacing my 7 year old Banners is due, so it's sensible to consider an upgrade.
The advice I received this afternoon was that my pwm solar controller might be OK, the CBE 230v charger might be OK but sub optimal (possibly 80% capacity) but they expressed concern & doubt about the 12v charging from the alternator and the risk of overcharge damage to the lithium.
And indeed the combination of the solar/12v.

Do I feel lucky?
And back to the original question, do I need lithium

 

[Just smiffy]

Have been considering because replacing my 7 year old Banners is due, so it's sensible to consider an upgrade.
The advice I received this afternoon was that my pwm solar controller might be OK, the CBE 230v charger might be OK but sub optimal (possibly 80% capacity) but they expressed concern & doubt about the 12v charging from the alternator and the risk of overcharge damage to the lithium.
And indeed the combination of the solar/12v.

Do I feel lucky?
And back to the original question, do I need lithium

And that is why you would certainly need a B2B…..

 

[Carpmart]

Okay, I get it now!

I’d stick with gel as you’d be unhappy with anything else!

 

[bigtwin]

but they expressed concern

Who were ‘they’?

Ian

 

[Lenny HB]

But I still don’t follow. Two Banner 100ah Gels are what, £350? One 100ah lithium, the same useable capacity is what, like £350…

Why wouldn’t you go for the lithium?

Gels and Lithium have about the same useable capacity as you can discharge Gels to 20% SOC, disadvantage with Gels is the long charge time and they don't like high loads.

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[Carpmart]

Gels and Lithium have about the same useable capacity as you can discharge Gels to 20% SOC, disadvantage with Gels is the long charge time and they don't like high loads.

Thanks for the clarification

It’s all academic as Gels have clearly won!

 

[Lenny HB]

My two gels are 100% by mid morning

My two gels are 100% by mid morning too,

You are both under an illusion, when you think they are fully charged they have reached their charged voltage but are only 80% charged.
They then need another 4 to 8 hours of the absorbtion phase to reach 100%.

 

[Langtoftlad]

It’s all academic as Gels have clearly won!

Wasn't aware it was a competition.
Thought I was gathering information, advice & opinions.
Which I have
So thank you all for your input.

 

[WESTY66]

You are both under an illusion, when you think they are fully charged they have reached their charged voltage but are only 80% charged.
They then need another 4 to 8 hours of the absorbtion phase to reach 100%.

You know me Lenny, if a clock says it 12.00 I take it as 12.00, not that it’s gonna be 12.00 in another 4 hours. I know this, they still won’t power my coffee machine enough to make a second cup for Mrs Westy

 

[Jim]

Even lithium can't be run down to zero, so pedantically, 100ah lithium has less usable capacity than 2 gels.

In 2021 When I said you could buy gels at a ¼ of the price, you could. Meanwhile, good Gels have gone up in price and Lithium still slides dramatically down. I don't know what the fraction is now but it must be closer to ½

That said, I believe cost is still the only reason not to have them. The capacity is as good as double, the re-charge speed is astonishing and the weight-saving considerable

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[Lenny HB]

The capacity is as good as double,

Only double with standard Lead Acid capacity is similar to Gels, I mentioned it in an eairler post.

 

[eddie]

No one “needs” Lithium!

But there again, no one “needs” a motorhome, a bike and tent do the same job ultimately

There is an argument that you can drop a lithium straight in and do no upgrades, but it’s an argument like Brexit and toilet threads, no real answers and like opinions, every motorhome is slightly different so a drop in replacement your mate did without any problems (that he admitted to ) doesn’t guarantee you can do the same.

My “opinion” having worked with batteries all my life and fitted many many Lithium setups, is my mate bought a 400cc Yamaha motorcycle but had it re-worked to 250cc as he didn’t like the acceleration, he was pleased as punch, I thought what’s the point if your not going to benefit from all its performance?

What’s not a “opinion” is I can charge my lithium set up 100 - 120 amps which would break most factory fitted set up, so beloved by many

So, I overnight, in the morning I cook my bacon, sausages, hash browns and eggs on my electric Ninja BBQ Smoker/grill, drinking coffee from the electric percolator, my wife uses her Dyson hairdryer, our hot electric water heater provides copious amounts of hot water to shower, and wash up. All packed away, start the engine and leave the Aire knowing the couple of hours to the next stop will see them ready to go again!

 

[eddie]

Only double with standard Lead Acid capacity is similar to Gels, I mentioned it in an eairler post.

Similar but better

 

[kurvengeisst]

I would add one little problemette with my two 105ah lead acids is I haven't got a clue how well they are charging and discharging, or if one is faring better than the other. I've got a tiny picture of a water tank on the MH control panel with a maximum five lines (telling me the batteries are full) that goes to two or three blinking lines as soon as I puta light on! Hopefully putting a lithium battery in, the app will tell me more accurately that I'm stuffed for leccy!

 

[Barclaybasher]

There are many different ways of using a motorhome that can range from full time to occasional use.

Then there are as many requirements ranging from "camping car" to a "home from home"

Does the owner never use sites? - in the UK there are few other places to empty black waste.

For the past 12 years or so my 3 vans had a single lead acid leisure battery, one solar panel, calor bottles and I rarely use sites....I usually travel alone though

Everyone has different needs in a van

Edit, 30,000 miles in the last 6 years

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[Ray-Vic]

And back to the original question, do I need lithium

No.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

Stephen - I can’t add to the points already mentioned here, but I will say we’ve no regrets at changing 2 Banners for 1 Lithium (already had compatible B2B & Solar controller from previous forward planning). Our main driver was weight reduction, followed by potential for time off grid. We are likely to retain this van for several years, so justified the outlay as investment.

 

[headlight]

I went from 2 x 100AH lead acids to a single 230AH LifePo4.
36kgs lighter, double the usable power and instead of 40AH max drain 200AH max drain.
I bought the LifePo4, 230AH Fogstar in their black Friday sale, cost £600 odd.
I did however already have fitted a Victron MPPT, B2B and shunt so no charging upgrades required.
I left the mains charger, Sargent PX300 in situ as I only use EHU a couple of nights a year and the Sargent, although not having a lithium profile, is 14.4v charge and 13.6v float.
It will only charge my LifePo4 to 80-85% but will not damage it and as I would be on EHU then 80-85% is fine.
Game changer as far as I'm concerned.
Changed my 300 watt inverter to a 2000 watt inverter.
As we go away for maybe a month at a time then having different cooking options is a plus as far as I am concerned.

 

[Taran_Las]

Gels and Lithium have about the same useable capacity as you can discharge Gels to 20% SOC, disadvantage with Gels is the long charge time and they don't like high loads.

Are you saying Gels are nearly as good as AGMs?

 

[SteveandSueJ]

I went from 2 x 100AH lead acids to a single 230AH LifePo4.
36kgs lighter, double the usable power and instead of 40AH max drain 200AH max drain.

May I clarify something please.. my 1000w (2000 surge) pure sine wave inverter would not power my espresso coffee machine label says 1100w. I have 2x100amp LA in parallel each 20ah power. If I went with a 100amp lithium, would I have more AH power for my inverter or do I simply need a bigger inverter, or bigger lithium? Trying to understand if lithium actually provides more AH power than LA..... I think you understand what I am likely not asking corectly, to understand...!!

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