Cost of sites

[FrankNicklin]

Visited a small site in last weekend. Site has approx 50 pitches and some lodges and pods. Got chatting to the owner and apparently his electricity bill last year was £37,000 alone, then you have to add water, waste, wages, upkeep etc and then we wonder why prices are increasing as much as they do.

 

[FrankNicklin]

Numbers can be misleading and make good headlines

Taking a very low 25% average occupancy

That works out at around £8 / night, not including the lodges etc

Not too big a hit from their nightly charge I suspect and will probably be much less as 25% occupancy is I would guess very low

Taking another number view on this , the same occupancy rate will give an income of £1.7 million if a night fee is £30

I think he can afford the electric bill

That’s not really the point of my post. Yes he can afford it, he paid it, I was merely pointing out the cost and why costs to stay on sites are increasing. I presume the 1.5 mill you say he could earn has to pay business rates on acres of land, salaries, gas, tax, NI. etc.

I can afford to pay my electric bill now, but it does not mean I will be able to in the long term.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Why are UK energy prices so high ?.

How can European sites still charge ACSI camping club rates, with low amps ehu included ?

My Spanish domestic electricity rate is less than 1/2 my UK rate?.

 

[FrankNicklin]

IMO a Motorhome should be selfsuficent we rarely ever use EHU even in winter in the UK.
Current van only has 234ah of Gel batteries with 300 Watts never have a problem. Next van I plan to fit 460 ah of Lithium so it will be even more cabable.

That’s fine and your view. If you can afford to fit 460ah of lithium, go for it, I can’t afford to.

Many of us do this MH stuff on very tight budgets, so have to rely on EHU for more than a few days away.

 

[FrankNicklin]

Why are UK energy prices so high ?.

How can European sites still charge ACSI camping club rates, with low amps ehu included ?

My Spanish domestic electricity rate is less than 1/2 my UK rate?.

Depends on the country, the infrastructure, how energy is imported and generated.

Electricity price by country 2024 | Statista

The cheapest electricity prices in the world could be found in Iran in 2023, whereas the cost of electricity per kwh was highest in Europe.

www.statista.com

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[eddie]

Well, having a camper with, a 120 amp B2B, 220 amp Alternator, 3 X 125 Amp Lithium’s, a factory fitted Onan 5Kw generator and a 3000/120 Victron multiplus and 3 X 175w Solar in Scotland just before Christmas in -5* we were happy to have hook up

We could have survived a couple of days before ‘doing something’ but I simply refuse to compromise. Heating, air frier, Dyson hair drier, TV, Ice maker, beer fridge the lot!

Admittedly as we were on a mates drive, had it been warmer, we probably wouldn’t have bothered hooking up for a long weekend.

I also, designed, built, ran and subsequently sold an award winning campsite, and have heard all the arguments, but, whether you like it or not, the vast, and by vast I mean virtually all of my customers want hook up.

To an extent that it’s easier to say ‘bye’ when someone is trying to explain your wrong with your pricing policy, and that we should change the tariff to suit them

If you going to bang on about all the clever mods you’ve made to go off grid, bugger off grid then, not sit on a campsite with all its mod cons dripping about its policy when your the person that chose the site your on!

Take a leaf out of Lenny’s book, doesn’t use sites as he doesn’t need them.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Depends on the country, the infrastructure, how energy is imported and generated.

Electricity price by country 2024 | Statista

The cheapest electricity prices in the world could be found in Iran in 2023, whereas the cost of electricity per kwh was highest in Europe.

www.statista.com

Not just a big energy company rip off then.

A bit like my council tax.

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

My old next door neighbour had a 15 acre caravan park and his electric bill was around £4-5k a month and this was probably 8-9 years ago he paid a lot to have EHU post put in so he could meter it.
The thing that made him go that way was he had a few full time caravans with awning’s and the dummies who owned them would have electric heaters in the awnings on full blast while they were at work so no doubt had the same inside their van

 

[starquake]

Depends on the country, the infrastructure, how energy is imported and generated.

Electricity price by country 2024 | Statista

The cheapest electricity prices in the world could be found in Iran in 2023, whereas the cost of electricity per kwh was highest in Europe.

www.statista.com

Thats June 23, things have changed - at moment UK is one of the cheaper places on average in EU. The reality of energy prices contracted for this month are that the raw without transmission costs are about 5p a unit in UK on average and 4.5p in France (Below are tommorrows day ahead pricing).

This whole 40p a unit nonsense and being most expensive in EU was the situation last year as it was end of the super-high price crunch (when UK was heating our houses at expense of some 3rd world countries ... we literally brought their contracted gas at a higher price) -> combined with half of French nuclear generation being broken due to maintaince, so UK was exporting power instead of importing, propping up our EU friends. Right now even in winter gas storage is full across all of EU and as such that is why prices are low. I'm not saying some commercial entitites didn't pay for a fix as their budgets required it, and the problem now is the lag of people exiting such deals. Some energy companies will make a lot of money from this but I cant blame them.

In positives as said, energy prices should fall barring another war for 2 ish years -> my point is we shouldn't accept campsite owners blaming them for price increases given they shouldn't be incurred in future years -> if they raise prices for it, it's entirely unfair given prices are now falling. I would not mind every campsite simply selling at their fixed rate and metering however -> but I do have issue with them raising prices by £5 a night, which ultimately is at least 10 units at a bad 40p a unit deal when I know my vans heating even on electric uses around 12 kwh total per night on electric in most circumstances once it is up to a comfortable temperature.. ie, the increase isn't exactly justified as I'm effectively paying in the increased fee my entire usage..

 

[Dolmen]

Well, having a camper with, a 120 amp B2B, 220 amp Alternator, 3 X 125 Amp Lithium’s, a factory fitted Onan 5Kw generator and a 3000/120 Victron multiplus and 3 X 175w Solar in Scotland just before Christmas in -5* we were happy to have hook up

We could have survived a couple of days before ‘doing something’ but I simply refuse to compromise. Heating, air frier, Dyson hair drier, TV, Ice maker, beer fridge the lot!

Admittedly as we were on a mates drive, had it been warmer, we probably wouldn’t have bothered hooking up for a long weekend.

I also, designed, built, ran and subsequently sold an award winning campsite, and have heard all the arguments, but, whether you like it or not, the vast, and by vast I mean virtually all of my customers want hook up.

To an extent that it’s easier to say ‘bye’ when someone is trying to explain your wrong with your pricing policy, and that we should change the tariff to suit them

If you going to bang on about all the clever mods you’ve made to go off grid, bugger off grid then, not sit on a campsite with all its mod cons dripping about its policy when your the person that chose the site your on!

Take a leaf out of Lenny’s book, doesn’t use sites as he doesn’t need them.

Couldn’t agree more, why people go to a site with hot showers, wide level pitches, cctv security, 16 amp hook up, clean modern black and grey disposal and then proceed to say they have been ripped off and the site should have had a special policy designed around their own particular needs, I just don’t know. It would appear a lot would like to ‘wild camp’ on a fully serviced site

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[FrankNicklin]

Thats June 23, things have changed - at moment UK is one of the cheaper places on average in EU. The reality of energy prices contracted for this month are that the raw without transmission costs are about 5p a unit in UK on average and 4.5p in France (Below are tommorrows day ahead pricing).

This whole 40p a unit nonsense and being most expensive in EU was the situation last year as it was end of the super-high price crunch (when UK was heating our houses at expense of some 3rd world countries ... we literally brought their contracted gas at a higher price) -> combined with half of French nuclear generation being broken due to maintaince, so UK was exporting power instead of importing, propping up our EU friends. Right now even in winter gas storage is full across all of EU and as such that is why prices are low. I'm not saying some commercial entitites didn't pay for a fix as their budgets required it, and the problem now is the lag of people exiting such deals. Some energy companies will make a lot of money from this but I cant blame them.

In positives as said, energy prices should fall barring another war for 2 ish years -> my point is we shouldn't accept campsite owners blaming them for price increases given they shouldn't be incurred in future years -> if they raise prices for it, it's entirely unfair given prices are now falling. I would not mind every campsite simply selling at their fixed rate and metering however -> but I do have issue with them raising prices by £5 a night, which ultimately is at least 10 units at a bad 40p a unit deal when I know my vans heating even on electric uses around 12 kwh total per night on electric in most circumstances once it is up to a comfortable temperature.. ie, the increase isn't exactly justified as I'm effectively paying in the increased fee my entire usage..
View attachment 858703

I guess price rises are not just about energy costs, there are lots of other factors as well. Yes I posted 2023 prices and those prices have changed, however lots of other prices have increased. what prices are now or what they will be in the future is anybodies guess.

We could be on a war footing at some point in the future and all this will be irrelevant anyway. I don't care what his bill was or is now, that’s for him to negotiate I was just pointing out some information I was told at a point in time. The unit cost is irrelevant in the overall scheme of things because owners can charge what they like anyway.

 

[starquake]

Couldn’t agree more, why people go to a site with hot showers, wide level pitches, cctv security, 16 amp hook up, clean modern black and grey disposal and then proceed to say they have been ripped off and the site should have had a special policy designed around their own particular needs, I just don’t know. It would appear a lot would like to ‘wild camp’ on a fully serviced site

I think given aires exist, why shouldn't campsites offer the aire equivalent, ie, water, waste and parking and nothing else?

After all it's extra revenue, or maybe they would prefer they didn't stay on their campsite and parked for free at the seafront insead.

Should edit, if we want CAMC to fail (which I don't) then we should be encoruaging a more complex set of services. I am all for even locking the toilet blocks in CAMC and CACC and making them only available to "campers" which should reduce some costs for motorhomers. They are assuming I'll use something which to date we have never used being a self-sufficent motorhome.

 

[starquake]

I guess price rises are not just about energy costs, there are lots of other factors as well. Yes I posted 2023 prices and those prices have changed, however lots of other prices have increased. what prices are now or what they will be in the future is anybodies guess.

We could be on a war footing at some point in the future and all this will be irrelevant anyway. I don't care what his bill was or is now, that’s for him to negotiate I was just pointing out some information I was told at a point in time. The unit cost is irrelevant in the overall scheme of things because owners can charge what they like anyway.

Well they can charge what they want as long as it's unmetered to correct you..
They cannot if it's metered, they can only charge actual costs. (That is a ruling on caravan parks by ofgem).

So having a higher EHU rate unmetered, can lead to accusations of price gouging, as demonstrated by my example of a £5 rise is likely more than my van would use all day on an uncompetitive rate alone.

 

[eddie]

Thats June 23, things have changed - at moment UK is one of the cheaper places on average in EU. The reality of energy prices contracted for this month are that the raw without transmission costs are about 5p a unit in UK on average and 4.5p in France (Below are tommorrows day ahead pricing).

This whole 40p a unit nonsense and being most expensive in EU was the situation last year as it was end of the super-high price crunch (when UK was heating our houses at expense of some 3rd world countries ... we literally brought their contracted gas at a higher price) -> combined with half of French nuclear generation being broken due to maintaince, so UK was exporting power instead of importing, propping up our EU friends. Right now even in winter gas storage is full across all of EU and as such that is why prices are low. I'm not saying some commercial entitites didn't pay for a fix as their budgets required it, and the problem now is the lag of people exiting such deals. Some energy companies will make a lot of money from this but I cant blame them.

In positives as said, energy prices should fall barring another war for 2 ish years -> my point is we shouldn't accept campsite owners blaming them for price increases given they shouldn't be incurred in future years -> if they raise prices for it, it's entirely unfair given prices are now falling. I would not mind every campsite simply selling at their fixed rate and metering however -> but I do have issue with them raising prices by £5 a night, which ultimately is at least 10 units at a bad 40p a unit deal when I know my vans heating even on electric uses around 12 kwh total per night on electric in most circumstances once it is up to a comfortable temperature.. ie, the increase isn't exactly justified as I'm effectively paying in the increased fee my entire usage..
View attachment 858703

Then don’t go!

Why do you think you have any rights over how a business charges other than “use” or “not use”

 

[FrankNicklin]

Well they can charge what they want as long as it's unmetered to correct you..
They cannot if it's metered, they can only charge actual costs. (That is a ruling on caravan parks by ofgem).

So having a higher EHU rate unmetered, can lead to accusations of price gouging, as demonstrated by my example of a £5 rise is likely more than my van would use all day on an uncompetitive rate alone.

You don’t need to correct me.

I get that and people will abuse an unmetered connection and we all end up paying the price.

I’ve yet to use a site with a meter and I have no idea how much we would use per day.

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[eddie]

I think given aires exist, why shouldn't campsites offer the aire equivalent, ie, water, waste and parking and nothing else?

Why Should they?

After all it's extra revenue, or maybe they would prefer they didn't stay on their campsite and parked for free at the seafront insead.

We found it attracts the ‘wrong’ type

Should edit, if we want CAMC to fail (which I don't) then we should be encoruaging a more complex set of services.

The Club is cash rich, no chance of it failing

I am all for even locking the toilet blocks in CAMC and CACC and making them only available to "campers" which should reduce some costs for motorhomers. They are assuming I'll use something which to date we have never used being a self-sufficent motorhome.

Re arrange the universe around what you want?

Why not choose sites that offer what you want?

Of course you’ll be limited for choice as most people want all the things you don’t so not a good business model

 

[TheAleMan]

Plenty of sites without EHU, your choice whether you use them or not.

Yes they are still about, but there seems to be fewer and fewer about now. A lot of random sites we phone now when touring the uk invariably seem to be all inclusive which doesn’t suit us.

 

[starquake]

Then don’t go!

Why do you think you have any rights over how a business charges other than “use” or “not use”

Well, I think I'd prefer metering, but equally I see how it makes zero sense today given the prices falling. And I'm not complaining about your old site eddie as thats quite reasonable, I'm more complaining at sites raising their nightly rates by £5 or 10 to 70-80 a night, then blaming electricity for it (cough CAMC), when there is no conceivable way in non-winter season I could ever conceivably use that much electicity (short of an awning heater brigade discussion). I'm more than happy to pay a reasonable all-in fee including electricity, but will take a non-EHU for a £5 or more discount every time, as I think like your old van we would be happy off grid in ALL circumstances in summer. In fact the fridge runs better on gas, so it's preferred.

I mean the simple option is offer a non-EHU rate as many sites do today as above, and everyone is happy and no-one has any complaints.

 

[starquake]

We found it attracts the ‘wrong’ type

Now thats an interesting point, I totally agree if that is case, campsites shouldn't offer it - I didn't realise that was the case. The other CACC club manages non-EHU though at considerably less than the sites with, and seem to be expanding this based on our expereince last year. CACC have a simple £7 a night difference between EHU and non EHU from our experience which seems about right.

 

[eddie]

Book on line, arrive, ANPR Barrier allows access, toilets, showers, laundry WiFi and electric hook up all instantly available, no faffing around, entering credit card details, topping up, wardens taking readings.

Arrive when you want, unplug and leave when you want, so easy, so simple, much preferred by the vast majority, hence it’s the most common model

Car parks, services, lay-bys and CL’s available for those who don’t want to use sites

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[eddie]

Now thats an interesting point, I totally agree if that is case, campsites shouldn't offer it - I didn't realise that was the case. The other CACC club manages non-EHU though at considerably less than the sites with, and seem to be expanding this based on our expereince last year. CACC have a simple £7 a night difference between EHU and non EHU from our experience which seems about right.

A friend of mine ran a CL and opened a fully facility site adjacently. He intended to keep both running

The CL people just used the site as if they were guests and argued and got shitty when told they couldn’t

 

[hja]

Yes they are still about, but there seems to be fewer and fewer about now. A lot of random sites we phone now when touring the uk invariably seem to be all inclusive which doesn’t suit us.

Yes . Can be quite difficult to find a site without ehu. CCC do usually offer some non ehu pitches if you want site facilities. We are quite happy on a CL with just water and toilet dump. CAMC have bee trialling non ehu pitches on some sites over winter. Be interesting to see what uptake there has been. I believe they just lock the ehu box. I hope they continue it into the summer. I really cant understand why more sites don’t offer that option. I understand that some sites would find metering too expensive to install or too much of a faff. I do think the clubs are different, or should be, to commercial sites. Clubs are supposed to encourage all their members. After all that is the CAMC argument for not having an age discount. So surely as more vans are quite capable of going off grid why not offer that option.

 

[bobnick]

The people that don't/won't do sites where do they do their Elsan duties.
We were on a few aires the last trip and there were no facilities for dumping?

 

[westhamman]

I have been booking my sites recently, I'm a planner, I like to have everything booked. 23 sites booked from holiday parks to basic cl's, prices have increased, I either pay the rate wanted or go elsewhere. I just want to visit different areas.

 

[cyberyacht]

If is a big word.

If you can line your van between two pegs:
If you can find a pitch without overhanging low branches
If you can remember to arrive at a continental site outside the lunch break
If you can find a garage that will let you fill your LPG cylinder
If you can get your van level without searching for concrete blocks and planks
If you can empty your cassette without splashing your feet
If you can fill your water tank without flooding the site
If you can arrive at your destination with full batteries
You'll be a motorhomer my son.

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[nicholsong]

That’s not really the point of my post. Yes he can afford it, he paid it, I was merely pointing out the cost and why costs to stay on sites are increasing. I presume the 1.5 mill you say he could earn has to pay business rates on acres of land, salaries, gas, tax, NI. etc.

I can afford to pay my electric bill now, but it does not mean I will be able to in the long term.

Have you actually checked out what it would cost to have a B2B fitted, or DIY? Then compared it with the site fees you pay in a year just to get EHU?

 

[FrankNicklin]

Have you actually checked out what it would cost to have a B2B fitted, or DIY? Then compared it with the site fees you pay in a year just to get EHU?

The sites we have used so far are not metered so the price is inclusive. If you don't have a choice of not paying for EHU we use it there are no savings to be made.

I have split relay charging so my Leisure is charged along with my vehicle battery when on the road. I understand B2B should be faster for bigger batteries, but still requires the engine to be running.

I've never arrived on site with my leisure battery less that 100% charged. I have 105ah wet battery at the moment. I have 100w portable Solar for top up. At the moment its just used to keep the engine battery charge up whilst in storage but will be used on the Leisure battery this year for a couple of festivals.

 

[nicholsong]

eddie said

"We could have survived a couple of days before ‘doing something’ but I simply refuse to compromise. Heating, air frier, Dyson hair drier, TV, Ice maker, beer fridge the lot!"

We do not have those things at home, only a TV and the one in the MH has not been on in 10 years. So no compromise for us. But living like that enables us to be easily self-sufficient.

 

[bobnick]

Some don't go on sites JUST to get ehu. Some sites offer a lot more. Of course one has to pay.

 

[nicholsong]

The people that don't/won't do sites where do they do their Elsan duties.
We were on a few aires the last trip and there were no facilities for dumping?

Were they town Aires or ones like Camping-car parks?

We carry two cassettes and use public facilities for no.1s, so can go for about 10 days.

You do not need a cassette dump point on the aire - I am sure you drove past many en-route.

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[bobnick]

I think we di

Were they town Aires or ones like Camping-car parks?

We carry two cassettes and use public facilities for no.1s, so can go for about 10 days.

You do not need a cassette dump point on the aire - I am sure you drove past many en-route.

I think we did 5 aires on our last Euro tour. 3 had no facilities, 2 did have an Elsan and water.
Didn't bother us as we would not stay on a aire for more than 1 night. We would make sure we were on a site the next night.
I was wondering about the people who spend day's, weeks and even months "on the road" using lay by's, aires, car parks, waste land etc.