Clutch on the way out in France?

[Guigsy]

There was a garage 15km up the road that was open today, but they said they wouldn't get parts until Monday regardless. Rather than be stuck in a garage yard, we thought we'd stay here until Sunday night:

I had a poke around this morning. The fluids tank is definitely full. If anything, it's slightly over maximum. I can't see any obvious leaks in the pipework. I peered into the pedal box, but I can't see much. There's nothing obviously catching and no weeping on the limited amount I can see.

Under the van... my skills run out. I think this is the sump against the gearbox??? Nothing feels damp or greasy, even the darker patches.

Just looks like 12 years of grime and abuse to me?

Sunday evening we'll limp to Gap. Monday morning we'll go to the garage the RAC tell us to go. They said we'll get a hire car if it takes more than a day. We are think we'll abuse the hire car in the Verdon Gorge for a few hours.

 

[Barclaybasher]

There was a garage 15km up the road that was open today, but they said they wouldn't get parts until Monday regardless. Rather than be stuck in a garage yard, we thought we'd stay here until Sunday night:
View attachment 304352
I had a poke around this morning. The fluids tank is definitely full. If anything, it's slightly over maximum. I can't see any obvious leaks in the pipework. I peered into the pedal box, but I can't see much. There's nothing obviously catching and no weeping on the limited amount I can see.

Under the van... my skills run out. I think this is the sump against the gearbox??? Nothing feels damp or greasy, even the darker patches.
View attachment 304353

Just looks like 12 years of grime and abuse to me?

Sunday evening we'll limp to Gap. Monday morning we'll go to the garage the RAC tell us to go. They said we'll get a hire car if it takes more than a day. We are think we'll abuse the hire car in the Verdon Gorge for a few hours.

If you are using the RAC wouldn't that include recovery to the garage?

 

[Guigsy]

If you are using the RAC wouldn't that include recovery to the garage?

As we're in a campsite, the RAC won't recover us until they know which garage they are taking us to. Which they won't know about until Monday when they open. So on Monday, I'll phone them back, get them to find me a garage and then attempt to make my own way there. If it conks out, then I'll resort to their recovery. Maybe their recovery provider will be better in France, but in the UK I've waited for the RAC (with other people's cars) for far too many hours for this lifetime.

 

[DBK]

T

That you translate by : Cylindre récepteur d'embrayage (and certainly not Cylindre esclave as Google thinks)

Thank you, yes we are beginning to understand the limitations of Google translate.[/QUOTE]
The problem is Google is doing a literal translation. The French for "slave" is indeed "esclave" but the French don't use this term for the component.

 

[Greenway]

Thank you, yes we are beginning to understand the limitations of Google translate.

The problem is Google is doing a literal translation. The French for "slave" is indeed "esclave" but the French don't use this term for the component. [/QUOTE]
Yes I had worked that out when the garage owner looked at me a bit odd.
I think the though I was not going to let him leave until he had fixed the problem

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[Guigsy]

Sorry, needed to do an update on this...

So we stayed in the middle of nowhere from Friday until we got picked up by the recovery truck on the Monday. At the garage the mechanic gave it a good looking over and confirmed that I wasn't losing fluid and he couldn't find any issues with weeping or binding at the clutch pedal, master cylinder or reservoir. He took it for a half hour test drive and it refused to misbehave. He didn't want to spend half a day cracking open the clutch to check the slave cylinder as I'd not lost any fluids and it was behaving; there was nothing to suggest there were issues.

He thinks that when we were descending the pass from Italy into France, it was snowing, so I was dragging the brakes all the time to keep the speed down and to avoid braking harshly in the slippery conditions. This then caused heat buildup in the fluids, which made the clutch spongy. His only suggestion was to be careful and, if we do need to do passes, stop and enjoy the scenery more often to let it cool down.

We've since driven Verdon Gorge (gingerly!) and Monaco and lots of towns back in Italy on the Italian Riviera. The clutch has been fine. Not sure whether to be annoyed and frustrated or thankful...

 

[Silver-Fox]

We've since driven Verdon Gorge (gingerly!) and Monaco and lots of towns back in Italy on the Italian Riviera. The clutch has been fine. Not sure whether to be annoyed and frustrated or thankful...

You live and learn.

Look on the bright side it could have cost you a good few quid

 

[tonyidle]

Cadence braking a lost art then. I bow to the mechanics superior knowledge but find his conclusion a bit bizarre - I have never seen a fluid reservoir above ambient temperature and the clutch fluid is mostly separated from the brake fluid by a division inside the reservoir anyway.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Cadence braking a lost art then. I bow to the mechanics superior knowledge but find his conclusion a bit bizarre - I have never seen a fluid reservoir above ambient temperature and the clutch fluid is mostly separated from the brake fluid by a division inside the reservoir anyway.

Could be some heat transferred from a hot gearbox maybe into the slave cylinder.

 

[Bart]

Glad it's sorted itself out for you's anyways

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[Guigsy]

Cadence braking a lost art then.

Cadence braking is useful if you've lost traction. I was trying to avoid getting near that point. Also, isn't cadence braking exactly what ABS does, except it can do it to each wheel independently?

On descents, I use low gears and generally brake hard periodically as it generally keeps the brake temperature lower than just dragging the brakes. However, in snow and the road is steep enough, you can't help but keep your foot on the brakes for longer periods of time.

No, the mechanic's suggestion doesn't add up for me either. I don't have the issue at the moment. I'll just add it to my list of worries.

 

[DBK]

Very odd and I would be worried the problem might return. However, if it hasn't been done in the last couple of years it would do no harm changing the brake/clutch fluids when you get back.

 

[Enword]

Going to a meeting back in the 90s (Merc 407D xlwb accommodation in the front & sidecar in the rear so heavy!) heavy traffic, hot day, clutch stopped lifting properly & had to keep pumping it, eventually got really bad, so had to stop, quick look, no fluid visible anywhere, so in desperation we pumped the fluid through whilst topping up with racing brake fluid, what came out was black & very thin, Bled it & never had a problem again. the slave cylinder was bolted to the engine & the heat build up & the moisture in the fluid that had never been changed were to blame.

Re Braking
My first 2 sidecars had right foot brake levers & Cadence braking was a great advantage for racing, all the sidecars I've had since have been left foot brake systems & I struggle to use it using my left foot, The last one I tried 2 brake levers R&L foot Ps I'm right handed, must be right footed as well

 

[DBK]

Going to a meeting back in the 90s (Merc 407D xlwb accommodation in the front & sidecar in the rear so heavy!) heavy traffic, hot day, clutch stopped lifting properly & had to keep pumping it, eventually got really bad, so had to stop, quick look, no fluid visible anywhere, so in desperation we pumped the fluid through whilst topping up with racing brake fluid, what came out was black & very thin, Bled it & never had a problem again. the slave cylinder was bolted to the engine & the heat build up & the moisture in the fluid that had never been changed were to blame.

Re Braking
My first 2 sidecars had right foot brake levers & Cadence braking was a great advantage for racing, all the sidecars I've had since have been left foot brake systems & I struggle to use it using my left foot, The last one I tried 2 brake levers R&L foot Ps I'm right handed, must be right footed as well

That sounds very plausible. The problem might have appeared on the descent but the cause was the ascent. The engine getting very hot, not much airflow to cool things as the vehicle is moving slowly and the fluid in the slave cylinder started to boil. If the OP was heading from Turin to Gap I'm guessing they went via Montgenevre - and that's steep on the Italian side if my memory is still intact as we crossed it going the other way a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Enword]

That sounds very plausible. The problem might have appeared on the descent but the cause was the ascent. The engine getting very hot, not much airflow to cool things as the vehicle is moving slowly and the fluid in the slave cylinder started to boil.

It was the most gutless racevan we ever had so was always stirring the box even on the motorway let alone on hills

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[tonyidle]

Could be some heat transferred from a hot gearbox maybe into the slave cylinder.

Possible but unlikely going downhill in snow .

 

[tonyidle]

Cadence braking is useful if you've lost traction. I was trying to avoid getting near that point. Also, isn't cadence braking exactly what ABS does, except it can do it to each wheel independently?

On descents, I use low gears and generally brake hard periodically as it generally keeps the brake temperature lower than just dragging the brakes. However, in snow and the road is steep enough, you can't help but keep your foot on the brakes for longer periods of time.

No, the mechanic's suggestion doesn't add up for me either. I don't have the issue at the moment. I'll just add it to my list of worries.

Cadence braking is a more gentle version of ABS. I used to find that gentle constant braking made it very difficult to feel loss of grip on very slippery roads. By the time I'd realised the vehicle was sliding it was more difficult to regain control. Firm cadence braking allowed more 'feel'. Maybe ABS would do the same - it wasn't around when I was commuting over Shap Fell throughout the '80s.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Possible but unlikely going downhill in snow .

Low gear high revs so heat sink from engine and gearbox

 

[tonyidle]

Low gear high revs so heat sink from engine and gearbox

He was braking - no fuel being burned therefore no heat produced. Under those circumstances the engine would be pretty cool by the bottom of the hill. High rpm just means the water pump turns faster.

 

[Silver-Fox]

no fuel being burned therefore no heat produced

If no fuel burnt you have stalled

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[tonyidle]

If no fuel burnt you have stalled

No - modern engines (either fuel) cease injection on overrun until rpm is just above tickover.

 

[Boringfrog]

Good result, sort of...I think I would try and make it happen again, maybe in the UK. Get the blowers directed to the footwell, heating up the master cylinder, see if it's slow at returning again.

Grebbit...

 

[bigtwin]

He was braking - no fuel being burned therefore no heat produced. Under those circumstances the engine would be pretty cool by the bottom of the hill. High rpm just means the water pump turns faster.

You’re ignoring the fact that friction and compressing air both generate heat - there’s a reason why compressors have cooling fins.

Ian

 

[Silver-Fox]

No - modern engines (either fuel) cease injection on overrun until rpm is just above tickover.

I was under the impression that the fuel was still injected albeit very reduced.

Im happy to be corrected.

 

[tonyidle]

You’re ignoring the fact that friction and compressing air both generate heat - there’s a reason why compressors have cooling fins.

Ian

Splitting hairs. Engines cool dramatically on a long downhill. Petrol engines and nowadays most Diesels are throttled anyway. You can't compress it if it isn't allowed in.

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[bigtwin]

Splitting hairs. Engines cool dramatically on a long downhill. Petrol engines and nowadays most Diesels are throttled anyway. You can't compress it if it isn't allowed in.

Are you saying that modern engines don’t have engine braking?

Ian

 

[Silver-Fox]

Splitting hairs. Engines cool dramatically on a long downhill. Petrol engines and nowadays most Diesels are throttled anyway. You can't compress it if it isn't allowed in.

That post makes no sense to me at all I’m afraid.

Surely if in gear, clutch engaged, going down hill with no throttle air is admitted to the cylinders.
The valves are doing what they should be due to mechanical or belt connection to the crank.

 

[Guigsy]

A few weeks ago we came down from the Sierra Nevada mountains. The main road isn't that steep and the corners are gentle, so you can pretty must stay throttle off for more than 10km. I can confirm that the engine cools significantly. The gauge went down from the usual 'half' position to not far off cold.

Yes, I like mountains. No, I didn't get any issues that time.

The brake fluid was changed about 6 months ago... but I suspect it was the first time it had ever been done in 12 years. Could they have flushed the brake circuit, but left old fluid in the clutch end?

 

[The Wino]

Nice that the mechanic gave an honest opinion there would have been a nice little earner in saying otherwise.

 

[tonyidle]

That post makes no sense to me at all I’m afraid.

Surely if in gear, clutch engaged, going down hill with no throttle air is admitted to the cylinders.
The valves are doing what they should be due to mechanical or belt connection to the crank.

If the throttle is shut (and in the case of a Diesel assuming it is actually throttled) then the air intake is closed. So no (or only idle) air is admitted. The valves work - they're just doing little or nothing.

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