CBE DS470 ... replacing SCR with a new RELAY... guidance on connections

[MarkHoughton]

Below is a screenshot of the guidance page from Roger Ivy ( OffGridPowerSolutions ) which is a generic "insert a relay for a B2B/SCR situation" tutorial.
I have ordered ( and received ) his recommended relay so am now ready to connect it.

I just want to confirm all the connection points in relation to the DS470-CA distribution board.

Pin 87A wired to B1 ( on DS470 )
Pin 87 wired to B2 ( on DS470 )
Pin 86 wired to GND ( on DS470 ) or do I make a new earth connection to the chassis ?

Pin 85 ..the D+ I am sure AdrianChen pointed me to that in a previous post.

So that just leaves...
Pin 30 ... where do I connect that ?

Off to the dentist again in a few minutes ( more neglected teeth repairs due to not bothering to have checkups all through Covid ! )

 

[AdrianChen]

Pretty sure your D+ is the grey wire coming of your DS470 board. - should be 12v+ when engine running and 0V when engine stopped. Diagram labels them Fa4&5

 

[MarkHoughton]

Do I just splice into that wire then ?
Am I correct in thinking the other wires from the relay go to the B1,B2 and GND studs ?
Cheers

 

[AdrianChen]

Do I just splice into that wire then ?
Am I correct in thinking the other wires from the relay go to the B1,B2 and GND studs ?
Cheers

Should be fine if the tests show it is D+ (Isuspect the yellow is also D+).

Are you wanting to disconnect the original Carthago feed to B1 when the engine is running, because you have a new 25mm cable connecting the new Orion XS?

 

[MarkHoughton]

Do I need to disconnect the original B1 then ?
Any idea where i connect the relay wires to ? Is it direct to the studs ? What way did you do yours ?

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[AdrianChen]

I am assuming you have put a new 25mm² cable in from the start battery to the input on your new Orion XS, and connected the XS output to the leisure battery busbar - and will connect the H terminal on the XS to D+ (also remove the jumper and adjust the settings)?

If that's the case then I think the new relay only needs to cut off the original connection to B1 when the engine is running, and this will stop the batteries being paralleled by the DS470 relay, thus breaking the loop that would otherwise diminish the effectiveness of the XS.

Doing this means that when the engine is running the CBE panel will have no connection to the start battery, so will not show its voltage and will show a red on/off button and alarm symbol - shouldn't matter much because your hopefully in the drivers seat! If on its standard Carthago wiring the fridge should be running off the leisure battery when on 12v, so will be fine.

So the relay 85 will connect to D+ and 86 to a ground, Chassis, GND, Neg Busbar whichever is neatest.
Then use 87A and 30 for the original 16mm² Carthago cable that runs to B1, so that it is disconnected when D+ is active when the alternator is running.

Given I just snipped the 0ohm resistor I can't speak from experience but I'm sure someone more expert will come along soon!

 

[autorouter]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I have been running a B2B from the Cbe feed to the hab battery with a relay across the B2B N/C for 3 years never had a problem I have just fitted a xs Orion 50 set at 40amps still no problem probably a 6-7 mtr run, the advantage is I don’t lose the cab battery 2amp trickle charge.

 

[AdrianChen]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

Has the advantage the panel won't alarm

 

[MarkHoughton]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

Hi Autorouter,

So just to confirm my understanding, I connect terminal 30 wire ( 4mm Yellow from the relay photo ) to B1 AND I disconnect the existing cable from B1 ?

Is the Blue 4mm wire ( terminal 87a ) then "connected" to the cable from B1 that I have now just disconnected ( in step 1 ) ?
Could these be mounted to a single/twin stud "bus bar" like this photo here ?

The Red 4mm ( terminal 87 ) for the LiPo connection, can I make that on the B2 stud or do I need to run a cable direct to the battery or a cable to the existing 250a multi-stud busbar that is currently connected to B2 ?

Cheers

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[autorouter]

Yes that all sounds fine. The terminal 87 wire can go to B2 if that is convenient, or the other points you mention if more convenient.

 

[MarkHoughton]

In doing all of the above, I now do NOT need to snip that R28 / R37 resistor ?
Is that the case by installing this relay ?

 

[AdrianChen]

In doing all of the above, I now do NOT need to snip that R28 / R37 resistor ?
Is that the case by installing this relay ?

Thats the idea! Its reversable without a soldering iron.....

 

[MarkHoughton]

Hi, so with a sunny morning I have taken the opportunity to make all the connections, followed the detailed guidance provided by autorouter, AdrianChen and Lenny HB and it all appears to be working. I only had the engine on tickover and it was showing 25.9A input. I guess I now need to tweak the settings on it for optimum delivery ?

We are off to Scotland next Thursday for a long weekend at the Braco Beer Festival on the Saturday if anyone is interested !
It's about halfway between Dunblane and Gleneagles, just 1 mile from the A9 junction. So we will be putting in a few motorway miles to test the "topping up".

Motorhome parking will be available in the village but no services, so you need to be totally self contained.

Thanks again for everyone's help in getting me sorted with this project. If you get to the festival I will buy you a beer.

 

[AdrianChen]

At tickover that doesn't seem bad - especially if there were other loads switched on.

Easy to monitor it and check you're happy with it via connect app. Settings won't take you long to adjust.

Cant remember if you have a Smartshunt/BMV and temp sensor if so have you put all your Victron stuff into a VE Smart network?

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[MarkHoughton]

At tickover that doesn't seem bad - especially if there were other loads switched on.

Easy to monitor it and check you're happy with it via connect app. Settings won't take you long to adjust.

Cant remember if you have a Smartshunt/BMV and temp sensor if so have you put all your Victron stuff into a VE Smart network?

I have Victron SmartShunt, all the gear is in a VE Smart network, bought the additional bluetooth dongle for the Inverter/Charger as well, so that it's included. Though why they don't just build it in and charge more I don't know as still have to buy it regardless.

 

[AdrianChen]

I have Victron SmartShunt, all the gear is in a VE Smart network, bought the additional bluetooth dongle for the Inverter/Charger as well, so that it's included. Though why they don't just build it in and charge more I don't know as still have to buy it regardless.

Yes I think the older product lines were based on old protocols/technology, and it's taking a few years to get it all on to more modern standards - Victron are a little ahead of Mastervolt (main competitor in some markets) in this respect (Ignoring Czone). It will be good if/when they get all the gear onto one protocol without interfaces

Adding a temp sensor will just give another protection layer stopping the chargers from charging the battery in cold conditions - you already have that function in the BMS, but I chose to have the charging system stop, and the BMS as a last backstop, rather then the only one!

I didn't bother with the dongle for the Multiplus, since I have a cerbo for remote monitoring - (Van is in storage when not used) - so just use VE Config etc for changes to the settings, and "remote console" on the phone/tablet or screen to turn it on and off.

Glad to hear that you've finally got it all working as it should and can enjoy the van!

 

[MarkHoughton]

I was premature on my elation with the B2B/relay override.
Drove up to Scotland last night. The B2B topped up the battery ok so that works, but I had no 12v on the fridge, step retriever/alarm or cupboard locks.
The step and cupboards will work from their native switches by the door/in the kitchen but will not activate via the ignition.
So what could not have been wired correctly in the relay ?

Also, this is Fogstar display whilst the kettle is boiling (600w Travel). The solar is disconnected yet I cannot turn off “charging” when the inverter is running, even with the kettle unplugged.

Thoughts ?

 

[AdrianChen]

Those are all D+ related, so I would check where you picked up the D+. I wonder if you've picked up the D+ input to the DS470, rather than the output - The output is shown as FA4&FA5 on the old 2016 diagram and is spade terminals, and the input is pin 1 of a four way connector just below them. I think there may be some difference on the 4 way between Iveco and Fiat. D+ isnt designed by the Alternator makers for high loads, so CBE will boost it for their purposes. I guess you just tapped into the cable you used, so it's still connected at both ends as it was originally

You're 99.9% there now!

Not sure about the fogstar display/question - Kettle seems to be showing the correct current draw - Voltage at 12.9% seems ok with that load, and should almost instantly recover to 13.3ish. Is the question the apps charging on off selector does not respond when you prod it?

 

[MarkHoughton]

Hi AdrianChen , I will cut into the other single wire instead then and try that.
My concern on the Inverter running and Fogstar going into toggling the “charging” mode was that the Inverter drain was some how trigguring the B2B to pull from B1. I checked its setting as it was set in “Charger” mode and not “Power Supply” mode. Is that correct ?
Was busy all day yesterday building raised planting beds in the village school, so apologies for slow reply. Am back on it today shortly.
Regards

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[AdrianChen]

Hi AdrianChen , I will cut into the other single wire instead then and try that.
My concern on the Inverter running and Fogstar going into toggling the “charging” mode was that the Inverter drain was some how trigguring the B2B to pull from B1. I checked its setting as it was set in “Charger” mode and not “Power Supply” mode. Is that correct ?
Was busy all day yesterday building raised planting beds in the village school, so apologies for slow reply. Am back on it today shortly.
Regards

The B2B should be in charger mode.

 

[AdrianChen]

When the inverter is running the leisure batteries voltage may well drop down a bit depending on the inverters load. This in itself shouldn't trigger any action in the B2B.

If I understand your set up correctly, the original 16mm Carthago cable that ran from the starter battery to B1 now has a D+ triggered relay to disconnect it from B1 when the engine runs. So when the engine is not running it is connected as originaly intended. That means when the engine is not running and when the main panel is switched on, and the leisure batteries are above 13.5v the CBE DS470 box will parallel the leisure and cab batteries, and if the voltage of the cab batteries is less than the Leisure batteries a current of up to 6amps will flow from the Leisure to the Cab battery via B1.

Alongside this you have a new 25mm cable running from the start battery to the input side of your Orion XS. The output side of the XS is connected to the busbars connected to B2 and the leisure batteries. When D+ is live with the engine running the XS will start up and supply a charge to the busbar/B2. At the same time as this happens your new relay will swap the output coming from the 16mm Carthago cable on pin 87a through pin 30 over to the B2/Busbar connection on pin 87 through pin 30, keeping the B1 connection supplied. Again at the same time the old SCR in the DS470 will also activate and connect B2 and B1 (Im not sure if the DS470 SCR is bi-directional or not, but I think it is not as its intended for B1 to supply a charge to B2).

Thats how I think you have wired up the new relay and B2B, have I got that correct in my mind?

 

[AdrianChen]

So with the engine off B1 is connected to the starter battery (via the new relay), and the B2B will be off since it should not be getting any D+ signal (So the new 25mm cable is essentially disconnected) so this is the same situation as the standard Carthago wiring.

The original DS470 SCR will be open IE the batteries are not in parallel, and because the Leisure batteries will be below 13.5v (as the inverter is on) the DS470 will not be charging the Cab battery.

In this state B1 is essentially isolated from B2 and the leisure battery system.

However if the D+ connection to H on the B2b is not D+ and is live, then the B2B could be depleting the start battery causing it's voltage to drop.

So I think I would disconnect the D+ connection to the new relay and the XS's H terminal, and check it is a true D+. I presume the H/L jumper has been removed?

Removing the two pin H/L connector will turn the unit off, so you can remove it to check if the B2B is involved in what you are seeing.

For completeness what settings have you got on the B2B engine shutdown detection settings, and input voltage lockout, post a pic if you can.

P.S. Was the fridge switched off completely when this happened?