CBE DS470 ... replacing SCR with a new RELAY... guidance on connections

[MarkHoughton]

Below is a screenshot of the guidance page from Roger Ivy ( OffGridPowerSolutions ) which is a generic "insert a relay for a B2B/SCR situation" tutorial.
I have ordered ( and received ) his recommended relay so am now ready to connect it.

I just want to confirm all the connection points in relation to the DS470-CA distribution board.

Pin 87A wired to B1 ( on DS470 )
Pin 87 wired to B2 ( on DS470 )
Pin 86 wired to GND ( on DS470 ) or do I make a new earth connection to the chassis ?

Pin 85 ..the D+ I am sure AdrianChen pointed me to that in a previous post.

So that just leaves...
Pin 30 ... where do I connect that ?

Off to the dentist again in a few minutes ( more neglected teeth repairs due to not bothering to have checkups all through Covid ! )

 

[AdrianChen]

Pretty sure your D+ is the grey wire coming of your DS470 board. - should be 12v+ when engine running and 0V when engine stopped. Diagram labels them Fa4&5

 

[MarkHoughton]

Do I just splice into that wire then ?
Am I correct in thinking the other wires from the relay go to the B1,B2 and GND studs ?
Cheers

 

[AdrianChen]

Do I just splice into that wire then ?
Am I correct in thinking the other wires from the relay go to the B1,B2 and GND studs ?
Cheers

Should be fine if the tests show it is D+ (Isuspect the yellow is also D+).

Are you wanting to disconnect the original Carthago feed to B1 when the engine is running, because you have a new 25mm cable connecting the new Orion XS?

 

[MarkHoughton]

Do I need to disconnect the original B1 then ?
Any idea where i connect the relay wires to ? Is it direct to the studs ? What way did you do yours ?

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[AdrianChen]

I am assuming you have put a new 25mm² cable in from the start battery to the input on your new Orion XS, and connected the XS output to the leisure battery busbar - and will connect the H terminal on the XS to D+ (also remove the jumper and adjust the settings)?

If that's the case then I think the new relay only needs to cut off the original connection to B1 when the engine is running, and this will stop the batteries being paralleled by the DS470 relay, thus breaking the loop that would otherwise diminish the effectiveness of the XS.

Doing this means that when the engine is running the CBE panel will have no connection to the start battery, so will not show its voltage and will show a red on/off button and alarm symbol - shouldn't matter much because your hopefully in the drivers seat! If on its standard Carthago wiring the fridge should be running off the leisure battery when on 12v, so will be fine.

So the relay 85 will connect to D+ and 86 to a ground, Chassis, GND, Neg Busbar whichever is neatest.
Then use 87A and 30 for the original 16mm² Carthago cable that runs to B1, so that it is disconnected when D+ is active when the alternator is running.

Given I just snipped the 0ohm resistor I can't speak from experience but I'm sure someone more expert will come along soon!

 

[autorouter]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I have been running a B2B from the Cbe feed to the hab battery with a relay across the B2B N/C for 3 years never had a problem I have just fitted a xs Orion 50 set at 40amps still no problem probably a 6-7 mtr run, the advantage is I don’t lose the cab battery 2amp trickle charge.

 

[AdrianChen]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

Has the advantage the panel won't alarm

 

[MarkHoughton]

Before the B2B is fitted, the B1 terminal of the DS470 gets a supply from the starter battery. It supplies the split charge relay and various other things, like the fridge heater element on 12V. Because it's on a circuit board, it's not possible to separate the split charge relay terminal from the various other things also powered by the starter battery. The purpose of that relay is to ensure that all the various other things on the B1 terminal are still supplied by something at all times.

The problem is that if the engine is running, the split charge relay is connected between the starter and leisure batteries, and shorts the B2B input and output, so making it useless. To solve that problem, the starter battery is disconnected from the split charge relay. But that means all the various other things are not powered any more. However if the leisure battery could be connected to that side of the split charge relay, those various other things can get power. Because both relay terminals are connected to the leisure battery, that shorting between the starter and leisure batteries doesn't happen.

So when the engine is stopped, B1 is connected to the starter battery, as before. When the engine is running, B1 is connected to the leisure battery. The relay flips the B1 wire between the two batteries when the engine starts and stops.

The common (COM) terminal (30) connects to B1.

The Normally Closed (NC) terminal (87A) connects to the starter battery. This terminal connects to COM when there is zero voltage on the coil (85 and 86).

The Normally Open (NO) terminal (87) connects to the leisure battery.This terminal connects to COM when there is a high voltage on the coil, such as the D+ signal.

The coil positive terminal (85) connects to the D+ signal.

The coil negative terminal (86) connects to any convenient negative or earth point. It is a very low amps current, so a thin wire will be fine.

Hi Autorouter,

So just to confirm my understanding, I connect terminal 30 wire ( 4mm Yellow from the relay photo ) to B1 AND I disconnect the existing cable from B1 ?

Is the Blue 4mm wire ( terminal 87a ) then "connected" to the cable from B1 that I have now just disconnected ( in step 1 ) ?
Could these be mounted to a single/twin stud "bus bar" like this photo here ?

The Red 4mm ( terminal 87 ) for the LiPo connection, can I make that on the B2 stud or do I need to run a cable direct to the battery or a cable to the existing 250a multi-stud busbar that is currently connected to B2 ?

Cheers

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[autorouter]

Yes that all sounds fine. The terminal 87 wire can go to B2 if that is convenient, or the other points you mention if more convenient.

 

[MarkHoughton]

In doing all of the above, I now do NOT need to snip that R28 / R37 resistor ?
Is that the case by installing this relay ?