Caveat Emptor, as the saying goes! (3 Viewers)

[Coolcats]

Hi all,

It’s been a very very long time since I posted anything of potential interest on MHF, but I thought you may be interested to hear of the predicament we now find ourselves in (whether through ignorance or naivety), regarding the purchasing of a new (to us) Motorhome, in the hope that no one else will make the same mistakes that we have.

We are currently the owners of a large ish (7.6m) Motorhome, plated at 4250kg, which is coming up to eight years old. Everything is still good with her and works as it should, but we have been discussing the possibility of downsizing to a panel van conversion for some time now. Our main reasoning for this is that we find it increasingly difficult to find anywhere to park the m/h in most if the towns or villages in this Country, unless you can find a supermarket somewhere, so thought a smaller van could be a solution to the problem. We have looked at several over the last few months but had failed to find one with a layout that might work for us.

A couple of weeks ago I was looking online at Autotrader where I came across a vehicle advertised around three hours away from us, that we though could work for us, so I called the dealer selling it (no names at this stage as things are still ongoing) in order to make an appointment to view it the following weekend. Upon making the appointment I was asked to make a ‘reservation deposit’ of £500, in order for them to take the vehicle off sale until we had seen it. The deposit was ‘fully refundable’ if we didn’t go ahead with the purchase.

The following weekend we drove off to the dealer in our current m/h so the dealer could look at ours with a view to part exchanging ours against the panel van, if we liked it. So far, so good. The panel van was very nice and had obviously been well looked after by the previous owner, but we did find ourselves asking how we would get on trying to fit all of the clobber we gained over the years into the van. After much discussion and lots of coffee, we said that we would give it a go. We agreed a part ex price for ours with a reduction in price for the panel van and agreed to buy it. The paperwork was duly completed, and we were asked to pay a further £1500 deposit, with the full balance due just before we collected the new van some two weeks later.

After leaving the dealership, we decided to spend a couple of nights away in our m/h at a site in the area which had availability, so off we went. By pure coincidence, the day after we arrived a couple who looked to be of a similar age to ourselves pulled onto a pitch three down from us in exactly the same model panel van as we had ordered. Later the same day, we went over and said hello and took the opportunity to ask them what must have seemed like endless questions about living with the van. Overall, they were pleased with their van, but just wished that it had more storage space to use. We noticed that most of their equipment had to be carried in plastic storage boxes, which were then taken out of the van when arriving on site and stored under the van. They also had to store their outdoor chairs and table under the van when not in use. This is ok if you intend to stay on the same site for a few days, but that’s not what we like. We like to get out and about and visit places, so we would be forever unpacking and repacking the van. It very quickly became apparent that we had made a big mistake, and a panel van was not going to work for us.

The following morning (3 working days after visit to the dealership) I rang the dealer and spoke with the salesman who we had dealt with us. I explained our predicament, offered our sincere apologies for any inconvenience, but that we had decided not to go ahead with the purchase of the new van, and we would like our deposit back please. Obviously, he was not happy, but asked me to confirm our decision in writing to him, which I did immediately after ending my call.

Later that day, I received a rather curt response from the sales manager, who said that whilst they could not ‘force’ me to complete the purchase, they were legally entitled to keep my £2000 deposit until such time the vehicle is sold to someone else. Furthermore, if the vehicle is sold at some point in the future for a price that is less than the price we agreed to pay, they can also come to us to make up the difference. They would also deduct additional money for admin and stocking charges. When I questioned this I was told it all in our terms and conditions.

At this point, I should say that at no point during the purchasing process were these terms and conditions explained to us. We were not offered a copy of them, nor were we given them. T’s & C’s were never mentioned.

The following day, I received an email from the salesman asking me to log in to our customer portal, where I could upload a copy of the documents they require us to sign and submit, and where we could find a copy of their T’s & C’s. So, access to the T’s & C’s not being made available to me until the day after I cancelled our order in writing. Having read them, things remain unclear to me as everything is written in legal terms, but I can’t see where it explicitly states where they can do what they are saying they will do if we now default on the contract. Perhaps we should seek professional legal advice?

All in all, a very difficult and potentially expensive situation for us now, as we both know that the van isn’t going to work for us. Please don’t make the same mistakes we have.

Apologies for the long ramblings.

Good luck!

if the deposit was paid via a Credit card I would speak with the credit card company. Whilst it was only £50 I had one company refuse to refund a deposit I was giving them 14 days notice for cancelling a service. When they refused I told them they could discuss this with the credit card company…the grumpy man then decided to refund. So first port of call give your credit card company a call.

 

[MichaelT]

if the deposit was paid via a Credit card I would speak with the credit card company. Whilst it was only £50 I had one company refuse to refund a deposit I was giving them 14 days notice for cancelling a service. When they refused I told them they could discuss this with the credit card company…the grumpy man then decided to refund. So first port of call give your credit card company a call.

I think he paid by debit card

 

[PlacidoD]

As the OP has already said he paid with a debit card.

P.S. It is worth re-stating that the OP posted here being philosophical about his expected £2k loss and as a lesson for the rest of us - not expecting a solution.

 

[MisterB]

If your current van isn't suitable for you, then why not go back to them and see if they have anything else that you would be happy with, asking beforehand if they would be prepared to 'move' your deposit onto a more suitable vehicle. If they have more than one sales outlet, there may be others in the company's 'stock'.

I don't think there is anything to be gained by being rude, aggressive or threatening, but a lot to be lost! Be polite, try to see it from their perspective.

An alternative is of course to continue with the sale and try the 'new' vehicle. If you're not happy with it after 12 months, then you may be able to sell it on for a price similar to what you paid BUT of course it's a risk, but you do get a real chance to see what works for you?

 

[Barclaybasher]

Yes Vic the op states he saw the van listed on autotrader , it was most likely on several other selling platforms too. Half the motirhomes on ebay ,gumtree etc are trade sales.


But to be honest there are a lot of members on here who have successfully downsized from a large motorhome to a panel van and possibly had those same nerves and thoughts regarding size etc. If I was the op I wouldn't cause my self so much grief over one couple they met who struggle to adjust their travel style and I would continue to do as they did when they viewed the camper and "give it a go" if it doesn't work out re sell the camper themselves . Who knows they may either find it works perfect for them or when they sell it again they might turn a profit or lose less than the £2k they could possibly lose now.

You're right about not giving it a try -"

Not many complain about lack of space in PVCs - you just probably carry less 'junk'

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[stewartwebr]

I feel for your predicament, however, I also feel for that of the Dealer and cannot think they are being unfairly vilified. It is not as if they have attempted to sell a van full of damp, rust or anything of the sort. They sold the van in good faith and have taken it off sale potentially losing other potential customers during that time. It is you who has changed your mind. It is not as if some unfortunate event has occurred like loss of income etc where through no fault of your own you can no longer move forward with the purchase, you have merely changed your mind. As a business the dealer deserves some compensation, I guess the question here is if keeping the £2k is morally correct. But let’s be clear, the dealer has done nothing to create this situation, you changing your mind and as hard as it may feel it needs to have financial recompense to the dealer who may have lost out. Dealerships are businesses and need to make money.
I hope it all works out well and you can come to an amicable solution.

 

[DavidG58]

I remember reading a similar tale on here soon after we joined, a member trying to cancel a very similar deal to this

Dealer refused to cancel and the member decided he would take it to court

While I don’t now recall all the detail I do remember he lost, the dealer then recovered his costs which were over £100K

I think you have four options

Ask nicely for refund but concede loss if not given

Go ahead with the deal

See if they have something you think might be more suitable, swap deal to that

Accept the £2K loss I think that will be a lot less than your cost to swap again soon after

 

[chaser]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I don't see why the op should be entitled to anything back , what's the point of a deposit if you are going to get it back it doesn't secure anything, might just have not made one.
The dealer hasn't done anything wrong, he has full filled everything that was agreed whereas the op hasn't so why should he get his money back.
Comes down to the old thing, don't get messed about with large deposits, don't part with any money till you have the steering wheel in your hand.

 

[Northernraider]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I don't see why the op should be entitled to anything back , what's the point of a deposit if you are going to get it back it doesn't secure anything, might just have not made one.
The dealer hasn't done anything wrong, he has full filled everything that was agreed whereas the op hasn't so why should he get his money back.
Comes down to the old thing, don't get messed about with large deposits, don't part with any money till you have the steering wheel in your hand.

I've always worked on the principle of leaving as little deposit on anything as I can JUST In case. And be prepared to lose it.


I think if those who think the seller should just return it looked at it from the other point of view their view would change.

Ask Lenny HB how annoyed he was when a dealer cancelled his order after a year on a new van.


Imagine finding the van of your dreams , leaving a deposit on it thinking its yours only for the dealer to come back to you in a few days to say he's changed his mind and sold it to someone else or increased the price etc. ....you'd be well peed off.

Deposit works both ways and it exists to seal a deal made at the conditions stated.

 

[MichaelT]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I don't see why the op should be entitled to anything back , what's the point of a deposit if you are going to get it back it doesn't secure anything, might just have not made one.
The dealer hasn't done anything wrong, he has full filled everything that was agreed whereas the op hasn't so why should he get his money back.
Comes down to the old thing, don't get messed about with large deposits, don't part with any money till you have the steering wheel in your hand.

2k was not a large deposit. On our new van I gave dealer 500 to hold a van they had on order till we could view a similar van at the NEC, so long as we turned up the 500 was refundable. To secure the order they wanted a further 4,500 which we paid knowing we had asked for extras to be fitted so they covered any costs. We were happy and trusted the dealer and they could trust us knowing we'd paid deposit.

Furthermore the van they picked was in stock so they did have their hand on the wheel so to speak, seems like buyers remorse now but if I were them I'd go for the van and adapt to living in it. It's what they wanted and just saw someone else living differently in the same van but surely they had thought about the negatives of a PVC?

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[gus-lopez]

The seller removed it from sale

I didn't even think that still existed?

removing a vehicle from sale then readvertising it even stating " readvertising due to time waster " etc still makes buyers wary ,

Mates just sold his van privately.Advertised everywhere,including here by me, remained on sale everywhere even after taking a deposit .

If it was advertised in multiple places and removed those adverts cost money.

That is why I didn't think anyone did that anymore.I certainly don't .

Imagine finding the van of your dreams , leaving a deposit on it thinking its yours only for the dealer to come back to you in a few days to say he's changed his mind and sold it to someone else

Yes I've actually had that done to me on a private sale for a merc.

 

[chaser]

2k was not a large deposit. On our new van I gave dealer 500 to hold a van they had on order till we could view a similar van at the NEC, so long as we turned up the 500 was refundable. To secure the order they wanted a further 4,500 which we paid knowing we had asked for extras to be fitted so they covered any costs. We were happy and trusted the dealer and they could trust us knowing we'd paid deposit.

Furthermore the van they picked was in stock so they did have their hand on the wheel so to speak, seems like buyers remorse now but if I were them I'd go for the van and adapt to living in it. It's what they wanted and just saw someone else living differently in the same van but surely they had thought about the negatives of a PVC?

Spot on top box, trailer,box on the back plenty people live in one, not really a good excuse to say it's not big enough, they saw it when they bought it, it hasn't suddenly shrunk.

 

[Barclaybasher]

I moved all my stuff from my 5.5m Eribacar to my 7.5m A class.

The only real difference is the spare wheel and bike are now in the 'garage' when they were on a rack before.

Apart from the 'garage' the A class has more living space and a fixed bed.

The useful internal storage is pretty much the same - I kept camping chairs and table in the shower on the Eribacar.

 

[SpeedyDux]

That is exactly what this lawyer(not armchair) was going to recommend.

If they cannot give firm advice go to a Solicitor. Solicitors used to operate a 'Green Form' system under which they gave 30 mins. advice for free. I am not sure if it still operates - Chris or SpeedyDux please advise.

Geoff, please note that I opted for voluntary removal from the Roll when I retired. I'm a lay person. I no longer give advice.

 

[Neilfg]

We have been through a similar experience paid 2k deposit, cancelled order months later, dealer refused refund as they claimed our config had been locked by manufacturer and took late to change, we eventually got refund back. The details differ to OP but similar situation to Op.

We considered legal small claims etc, but advice was to pursue other avenues first. Dealer was a member of NCC, so we followed the NCC dispute resolution. Complained to the dealer, no satisfactory response from dealer, so raised complaint dispute with NCC, had to document everything (useful if going legal anyway). Took another 2 to 3 weeks but dispute resolved deposit returned.

NCC were very helpful throughout process.

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[CAB96]

I think it is this part you need to clarify with the dealer.

Furthermore, if the vehicle is sold at some point in the future for a price that is less than the price we agreed to pay, they can also come to us to make up the difference. They would also deduct additional money for admin and stocking charges.

You may have legally lost the deposit.

But there is no way they can come after you for extra if it wasn't explained before you signed, in my opinion.

 

[Northernraider]

I didn't even think that still existed?

Mates just sold his van privately.Advertised everywhere,including here by me, remained on sale everywhere even after taking a deposit .

That is why I didn't think anyone did that anymore.I certainly don't .

Yes I've actually had that done to me on a private sale for a merc.

The van I'm buying I insisted it was removed from sale the moment I placed a deposit on it which they did .

Otherwise as a buyer you take the risk of someone offering more and gazumping you

 

[cyberyacht]

IANAL should probably have preceded 99.9% of these postings. The quote about verbal agreements was attributed to Sam Goldwyn.

Changing from a 7.6m motorhome to a 6m(?)PVC is bound to cause storage issues. Whilst it sounds a bit harsh, ISTM that insufficient thought was applied before agreeing to anything even if the legalities may seem tenuous.

 

[Insider]

From a purely practical point of view we have a PVC and we use the folding chairs from Decathlon(link). We take the cover off them when we temporairily leave the campsite leaving the frame there on site and just build them when we arrive back. Takes about 30 seconds per chair and they are incredibly small when in transit. Infact they are smaller than incredibly small and that's just the Decathlon version. Other higher value manufactuers do collapseable chairs that are miracles of engineering! If the van is good in most other respects then solutions can be found for the equipment within I would say. Every van is a compromise.

 

[our poppy llll]

Thank you. We have had a quick call with a solicitor who deals with such matters. He wanted £369 per hour to look at the terms and conditions, and estimates his total costs for advice would be around £1200 + vat, so will have to give that some very careful consideration

Before you spend that sort of money, go to the CAB. See what they advise, if they say you have no case you know you can’t win but you have bluff. Get a well educated friend to write out your case for you. It will cost you about £140.00 for a small claim in county court. The dealer will lose more than £2,000 attending court and with solicitors fees,,plus the negative publicity. So they are likely to settle before the court date you get your £2000 plus £140.00 fees.
If they intend to defend it the court will write to you and tell you what their defence is. If it then looks like you can’t win, it’s cost you £140.00 and the £2000.00 you lost so you put it down to bad luck, most people in business will part with the £2000 which cost them nothing to get and would be fearful of speaking in court!.

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[Yorick]

I strongly suggest you do not follow this advice unless you want to be sued for defamation. UK defamation law (Defamation Act 2013) states that for a company’s defamation claim to be successful, they must prove that the defamatory words or material has caused or is likely to cause significant harm to their business.

The truth can never be defamation.

 

[Northernraider]

The truth can never be defamation.

The truth is the dealer did nowt wrong though.

 

[Yorick]

The truth is the dealer did nowt wrong though.

Telling the story, truthfully, is not a crime. Let other folk make their minds up.

 

[Next Stop]

I would say that the dealer has a right to hold back some of the money as compensation to pay for any admin work, but to go as far as to hold back the whole £2000 and say that if they sell the van in the future for less than what was agreed in the first place then they would be liable for the difference, this bit sounds to me like the dealer is just trying to scare the OP.
After all we are only talking about a couple of days.

Scrap that, just re-read it, if I'm reading right then the OP will get their £2000 back (less admin fees) when the motorhome sells?
This seems reasonable, although still not sure about the bit whereby if the van sells for less than originally agreed then the OP would be having to make up the difference.

<M>

 

[meanders]

The truth can never be defamation.

If the OP puts the situation onto social.media with the claim the the dealer is behaving unlawfully or even unreasonably, and suggests no-one else shops there, neither is claim is true, and it could adversely affect the business, so clearly meets the criteria for defamation.

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[Yorick]

If the OP puts the situation onto social.media with the claim the the dealer is behaving unlawfully or even unreasonably, and suggests no-one else shops there, neither is claim is true, and it could adversely affect the business, so clearly meets the criteria for defamation.

Tell the truth with no judgment. That's not illegal.

 

[Gina M]

Personally I wouldn't have panicked about the size of the PVC based on another couple having to store stuff under the van, maybe they carry a load of junk inside the van and that's why. I would go ahead and buy the van and see how you get on with it. If it doesn't work out, just sell it. Better than losing 2 grand or the pain and stress of trying to get it back.

 

[Sandancers]

A motorhome dealer put a video on Youtube a while ago. He mentioned in it which motorhomes were currently selling and which were stagnant.

The ones which were selling were PVC conversions and low profile C class vehicles.

So it could be said that you are getting rid of a vehicle which is likely to depreciate faster than the one you are buying.

My outlook would be, save all the hassle and stress of trying to get your deposit back, complete the deal, see how you like the PVC for a year and then if you hate it, sell it. That way it might be that you gain more than £2000 in depreciation on the PVC against your current vehicle.

 

[JJ]

Belongings are chains that hold you down.

Cast off all that stuff and start living free.

Look at the beauty of lillie's and smell the delicious aroma of your coffee whilst listening to the birds, bees and the wind rustling the leaves on the trees...

...and always remember that Fray Bentos Pies take up very little room because they stack up on top of each other.


JJ

 

[Puddleduck]

Like others I would go ahead with the purchase and see how you get on. Give it 6 months or a year. Top and / or back boxes would make sense and also check the useful stuff you take but never use....

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