Caveat Emptor, as the saying goes! (1 Viewer)

[Sterling155]

That is exactly what this lawyer(not armchair) was going to recommend.

If they cannot give firm advice go to a Solicitor. Solicitors used to operate a 'Green Form' system under which they gave 30 mins. advice for free. I am not sure if it still operates - Chris or SpeedyDux please advise.

Thank you for your valuable advice. Hopefully, CAB may be able to help.

 

[meanders]

Citizens Advice can usually get you half an hour on the green form scheme if they feel it necessary. Yes it still runs nicholsong. .

 

[MichaelT]

Yes, had we known they were available prior to signing the order form

But when you signed it said at the bottom terms were available on request?

Not knocking you but it was thete but like most of us when buying something we want we tend not to bother looking at them anyway and don't expect to change our minds.

 

[meanders]

I'm unsure if repeatedly reminding the OP of the mistake they have bravely come here to share in the hope that it benefits others, is particularly helpful.

 

[Puddleduck]

As I said before check to see if you have legal cover with any insurance.

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[PlacidoD]

I fear too many barrack-room lawyers posting in this thread:

"The following weekend we drove off to the dealer in our current m/h so the dealer could look at ours with a view to part exchanging ours against the panel van, if we liked it. ...... We agreed a part ex price for ours with a reduction in price for the panel van and agreed to buy it. The paperwork was duly completed, and we were asked to pay a further £1500 deposit, with the full balance due just before we collected the new van some two weeks later."

Normal contract rules apply. T & C's are irrelevant and this is most definitely not distance selling.
IF the seller ultimately sells for less of a loss than £2k then arguably the OP is entitled to the difference and only then would the T & Cs become relevant if at all. Equally if he loses more the T & Cs may come to his rescue. Then, of course, there is the question of the part-ex. Has the dealer lost money on that deal? Could he have sold that for more than agreed? That could be a real can of worms!!! If it were me, I would haggle but not litigate.

So to the OP: If so inclined by all means haggle with the dealer and best of luck with that but please do so with a clear understanding of the strength or weaknesses of your position on formal advice. But I think that you are old enough and wise enough already to know that.

 

[Phill D]

Thank you. We have had a quick call with a solicitor who deals with such matters. He wanted £369 per hour to look at the terms and conditions, and estimates his total costs for advice would be around £1200 + vat, so will have to give that some very careful consideration

Wow £1500 to know if you can to get £2000 back!
And that’s without any actions to recover your deposit.

Think your last line says it all. Hope you can get a more positive response and result.

 

[Chris]

If they cannot give firm advice go to a Solicitor. Solicitors used to operate a 'Green Form' system under which they gave 30 mins. advice for free. I am not sure if it still operates - Chris or SpeedyDux please advise.

God that is going back a long way!

I think Green Forms are a thing of the distant past.

I don’t really see the confusion here though or whether the dealers T’s and C’s are incorporated or the need for legal advice.

A contract is a contract and the dealer could enforce it if they wanted to.

 

[Sneds]

I think a face to face meeting with the dealer principle, preferably a director not a manager, would be the way to go.
Apeal to his or her human nature and good will.
Be nice and you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[meanders]

I think Green Forms are a thing of the distant past.

While not still officially in use, many firms give half an hour free advice especially in family cases. The forum and help line I frequent are often telling others to get their half hour free advice.

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[Bessy765]

Are terms and conditions legally binding?

The short answer is no. T&Cs are not automatically legally binding. When compared with contracts themselves, T&Cs are often not signed and accepted in the same way, so their enforceability is often misunderstood. For T&Cs to be legally binding, they must have already been accepted by the customer or client in the transaction, so it is recommended that your terms and conditions are signed by your clients, customers or suppliers before you begin your engagement. If it is the case the customer did not need to accept the T&Cs before entering the transaction, then they may not be bound by them.

 

[Silver-Fox]

I would send them a letter recorded delivery

Can I suggest special delivery.

Recorded isn’t worth a toss, as I was informed by a Royal Mail worker.

 

[meanders]

Well I meant 'Signed for'. It means you get a tracking number and can retrieve proof of delivery. Recorded Delivery disappeared some years back. Special delivery is the new registered post.

 

[10tenmen]

This practice is very similar to Marquis Motorhomes £500 to secure the viewing refundable and then if you agree to buy £1500 with the balance due 3 working days prior to delivery.

 

[Carpmart]

Sorry I disagree. The OP changed their minds having agreed a contract. At face value, the company is acting lawfully. Sooner or later someone is going to sue big time. Social media is very much in the spotlight and one thing has come out of the recent horror is that post something on it that is wrong and you can be prosecuted. That also means that the lesser burden of proof required for a civil case is 'game on'.

If the OP had not agreed to purchase and had not handed over the second tranche of money, thereby completing the "contract", it would be a different position.

I am certain that if someone wishes to underwrite any cost, the OP would be delighted to take such advice. However creating additional liability at this stage is likely to fall outside any legal cover they have on insurance.

I appreciate you possibly do not like my challenge, but I am trying very hard to keep the OP's liability to minimum, not make it orders of magnitude worse. The highest defamation payout is over £300,00 plus legal costs. As this is a business and if it collapsed as a direct result, it could run into the millions.

As we disagree, I suggests the OP takes proper legal advice from Citizens Advice or privately.

All seems like faff to me! You’re worrying too much!

Just let em know you’re not happy via socials; keeping 2k after three days and a change of mind is hardly a real issue for the dealer. Agree some cost covering fee if needed to appease them.

TBH, they obviously like their ‘sharp’ practices as asking for a viewing deposit is a little odd! It would have had me telling them to do one!

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[Bobbejaan]

I am more familiar with Scottish contract law these days rather than English law ..... But unfortunately, I would have to agree almost wholeheartedly with meanders numerous advice posts about the PURCHASE to the OP throughout this thread, and my view is that the OP has a very weak Legal Basis for forcing a successful full or substantial refund. ..... and I say that sorrowfully as I tend to be something of a dangerous animal to the opposition when it comes to fighting a Legal Case that I believe in.

As others have sugggested above, I would also suggest that a polite "personal direct appeal" to a senior level executive or owner MIGHT be more fruitful for the OP in the long run.

 

[Bobbejaan]

Sterling155

The only potential "easy-ish escape route" for the OP that I haven't seen mentioned so far is for the OP to go through the Terms and paperwork reading with a fine-toothcomb to see IF there is ANY mention whatsoever (OR similar) referring to ..... "Monies/Payments/Deposits/Etc are held In Trust pending/until such time as delivery is made and/or the Contract is concluded/fulfilled" .... IF so, it wouldn't be overly hard to construct a legally sound argunent that the OP is now entitled to a full refund. .... PS Additional >>>Furthermore, IF so (In Trust), that could well be used to convince your bank to issue a Chargeback on your debit card.

I have come across similar consumer-protection clauses in higher value purchase contracts/agreements in the past, and I have successfully browbeaten the supplier into surrendering on one or two occasions.

 

[nicholsong]

God that is going back a long way!

I think Green Forms are a thing of the distant past.

I don’t really see the confusion here though or whether the dealers T’s and C’s are incorporated or the need for legal advice.

A contract is a contract and the dealer could enforce it if they wanted to.

Chris

Half of my life is a distant past.

It is 37 years since I worked at a City law firm, but after as a corporate lawyer and Compliance Officer.

Doesn't time fly when one is having fun.

On the road again for 3 months tomorrow morning.

Geoff

 

[Jim]

IMO, regardless of any contract .You agreed to buy. You reinforced that commitment when you paid a deposit. The van is yours.

You need the dealer to buy it back from you. 18 months ago I’m sure he would have. Today, sales are much slower for dealers and many of them must be struggling with cash flow. I think your deposit is lost, sorry.

 

[PlacidoD]

Something that nobody has mentioned so far. Is there any possibility of agreeing the purchase of a different van from the same dealer or maybe another branch of the same dealer company? They would likely be amenable to such an arrangement.

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[Minxy]

Something that nobody has mentioned so far. Is there any possibility of agreeing the purchase of a different van from the same dealer or maybe another branch of the same dealer company? They would likely be amenable to such an arrangement.

I was wondering that too but I doubt the dealer would do a good deal seeing as they are already £2k up so no need to really try to 'catch' a buyer with a good deal. Also they may not want to risk being told the buyers had changed their minds again.

 

[Barclaybasher]

You've asked the dealer to cancel the sale and return your money.

In such a short time frame there would have been little cost or loss to the dealer.

He can probably keep the money but it is unreasonable for him to do so.

You have asked him to reconsider.

Using the courts is costly and stressful (ask me how I know)

If the dealer still refuses tell him that you will make public the facts - as you have done here (naming the dealer)

Be polite but firm

if you tell the truth without exaggeration you can't be sued - well you can, but he will lose

- (ask me how I know)

 

[Northernraider]

Sorry but while I normally wouldn't find myself agreeing with a dealer you entered a contract to buy the camper. The seller removed it from sale and kept it for you .. that's what the deposit is for . Readvertising a vehicle that you've previously marked as being sold does make future buyers wary , there are also costs involved. Different if there was something wrong with the vehicle but simply changing your mind isn't fair on the seller whether trade or private.

If you bought a vehicle from me privately , agreed to buy and left a deposit then pulled out your deposit is gone mate. I've had it happen several times in the past. And it's the same approach I do if I'm buying something. Leave a deposit then it's my vehicle or I lose the deposit ..that's life.

It's now your van or you've lost 2k , complete the purchase and sell it on if it doesn't suit you.

The seller In this instance is morally right even if there was a chance he wasn't legally.

You made an agreement. Expecting him to lose out just isn't fair.

 

[Northernraider]

You've asked the dealer to cancel the sale and return your money.

In such a short time frame there would have been little cost or loss to the dealer.

He can probably keep the money but it is unreasonable for him to do so.

You have asked him to reconsider.

Using the courts is costly and stressful (ask me how I know)

If the dealer still refuses tell him that you will make public the facts - as you have done here (naming the dealer)

Be polite but firm

if you tell the truth without exaggeration you can't be sued - well you can, but he will lose

- (ask me how I know)

Sorry Vic but I don't agree . I know from personal experience removing a vehicle from sale then readvertising it even stating " readvertising due to time waster " etc still makes buyers wary , I know myself the first thing I think is what's wrong with it. If it was advertised in multiple places and removed those adverts cost money.
In the past I've taken a deposit then thought it was OK to go out and buy a replacement vehicle only to then be told the buyer has pulled out . I'm then left with an extra vehicle and under pressure to sell the first one. Often for less than the original sale.

Doesn't matter how much . He entered a contract and then wants to renege on it.

If it was the other way round would people feel the Same.

I've no love for dealers. But if I'm selling anything I take a non refundable deposit. Back out then the deposit is gone.

 

[Northernraider]

All seems like faff to me! You’re worrying too much!

Just let em know you’re not happy via socials; keeping 2k after three days and a change of mind is hardly a real issue for the dealer. Agree some cost covering fee if needed to appease them.

TBH, they obviously like their ‘sharp’ practices as asking for a viewing deposit is a little odd! It would have had me telling them to do one!

On the van I'm currently buying I paid a viewing deposit so the seller would hold it for me and temporarily remove it from sale as I was still out the country .

He agreed to hold it for £250 on the condition that I turn up to view it. If I didn't turn up that deposit was gone. If I turned up and wasn't happy with the van or we couldn't negotiate and agree on a price he'd refund it. By rights he didn't have to.

Then after I viewed it he gave me as long as I wanted to think about it and decide and only when I agreed to buy it did I leave a further £750 deposit which would be non refundable. I'm happy with that arrangement. If I decided not to go through with it I'd expect to lose that deposit.

And I'd do the same as a seller.

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[Minxy]

We had similar to Tam, we were on holiday abroad when we spotted an advert for a Globecar PVC we wanted, the dealer wasn't taking a px as he was changing to another brand and our existing one was a Globecar. We agreed that we would pay a small fully refundable holding fee so when we were back in the UK we could view it in person and then if we definitely wanted it we'd pay a deposit (which the original fee became part of), which we subsequently did. If we had backed out after this we would have expected to lose our full deposit.

(It meant we actually ended up owning 2 PVCs at the same time which was fun as our drive was only just long enough for them if we lifted the gates off and then put them back on every time we needed to get a vehicle out!)

I can fully understand the OP's frustration and hopefully he can get some of the money back but IMV the dealer has no need to do that if he doesn't want to.

 

[The Coops]

How about a compromise? Not being a lawyer I could not comment on the case or the ins and outs of the business model and practise of the dealer, however you said you were looking to downsize but needed a bit more room and saw an owner of the same model van having to put boxes etc under the van for more room. The first question is probably like many on here is how much do you actually need to take(and will use) and secondly how much stuff do you pack just in case I like many am guilty of this, there aren't any shops at all in the rest of the world where I am going or will be passing so I will pack everything including the kitchen sink if I could. Why not look at the possibility of getting a towbar fitted and pack the non essentials, but just in case gear, in a small trailer or mount a lockable type box on the rear using a cycle carrier mount to carry the box and or cycle. Then you will have your downsize van and somewhere to store the gear.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Sorry Vic but I don't agree . I know from personal experience removing a vehicle from sale then readvertising it even stating " readvertising due to time waster " etc still makes buyers wary , I know myself the first thing I think is what's wrong with it. If it was advertised in multiple places and removed those adverts cost money.
In the past I've taken a deposit then thought it was OK to go out and buy a replacement vehicle only to then be told the buyer has pulled out . I'm then left with an extra vehicle and under pressure to sell the first one. Often for less than the original sale.

Doesn't matter how much . He entered a contract and then wants to renege on it.

If it was the other way round would people feel the Same.

I've no love for dealers. But if I'm selling anything I take a non refundable deposit. Back out then the deposit is gone.

Hi Tam
What you say about 'relisted due to time wasters' applies more to online advertising, eBay etc and usually private sellers.

I bought a camper off ebay (unseen !) when the winning bidder didn't complete.

Dealers are different and most are in business for the long haul. Reputation is key to being successful.

The salesman is upset about losing his commission.

The owner/manager is the person to appeal to.

There will be a cost to the dealer, if the time between the sale and change of mind is short the cost will be minimal.

The dealer may be entitled to keep the money but should balance that with being fair.

I've been in business for 40 years in the same premises and have had customers change their minds.

The only time I would even consider keeping a deposit is if an item was being made bespoke.

If the item was a stock item it just goes back into stock.......

Treat customers fairly and they are more likely to return.

In this case the OP said it was just a change of mind and just hopes to get something back.

As I said - deal with the owner/manger - politely

 

[Otter Spotter]

Hi all,

It’s been a very very long time since I posted anything of potential interest on MHF, but I thought you may be interested to hear of the predicament we now find ourselves in (whether through ignorance or naivety), regarding the purchasing of a new (to us) Motorhome, in the hope that no one else will make the same mistakes that we have.

We are currently the owners of a large ish (7.6m) Motorhome, plated at 4250kg, which is coming up to eight years old. Everything is still good with her and works as it should, but we have been discussing the possibility of downsizing to a panel van conversion for some time now. Our main reasoning for this is that we find it increasingly difficult to find anywhere to park the m/h in most if the towns or villages in this Country, unless you can find a supermarket somewhere, so thought a smaller van could be a solution to the problem. We have looked at several over the last few months but had failed to find one with a layout that might work for us.

A couple of weeks ago I was looking online at Autotrader where I came across a vehicle advertised around three hours away from us, that we though could work for us, so I called the dealer selling it (no names at this stage as things are still ongoing) in order to make an appointment to view it the following weekend. Upon making the appointment I was asked to make a ‘reservation deposit’ of £500, in order for them to take the vehicle off sale until we had seen it. The deposit was ‘fully refundable’ if we didn’t go ahead with the purchase.

The following weekend we drove off to the dealer in our current m/h so the dealer could look at ours with a view to part exchanging ours against the panel van, if we liked it. So far, so good. The panel van was very nice and had obviously been well looked after by the previous owner, but we did find ourselves asking how we would get on trying to fit all of the clobber we gained over the years into the van. After much discussion and lots of coffee, we said that we would give it a go. We agreed a part ex price for ours with a reduction in price for the panel van and agreed to buy it. The paperwork was duly completed, and we were asked to pay a further £1500 deposit, with the full balance due just before we collected the new van some two weeks later.

After leaving the dealership, we decided to spend a couple of nights away in our m/h at a site in the area which had availability, so off we went. By pure coincidence, the day after we arrived a couple who looked to be of a similar age to ourselves pulled onto a pitch three down from us in exactly the same model panel van as we had ordered. Later the same day, we went over and said hello and took the opportunity to ask them what must have seemed like endless questions about living with the van. Overall, they were pleased with their van, but just wished that it had more storage space to use. We noticed that most of their equipment had to be carried in plastic storage boxes, which were then taken out of the van when arriving on site and stored under the van. They also had to store their outdoor chairs and table under the van when not in use. This is ok if you intend to stay on the same site for a few days, but that’s not what we like. We like to get out and about and visit places, so we would be forever unpacking and repacking the van. It very quickly became apparent that we had made a big mistake, and a panel van was not going to work for us.

The following morning (3 working days after visit to the dealership) I rang the dealer and spoke with the salesman who we had dealt with us. I explained our predicament, offered our sincere apologies for any inconvenience, but that we had decided not to go ahead with the purchase of the new van, and we would like our deposit back please. Obviously, he was not happy, but asked me to confirm our decision in writing to him, which I did immediately after ending my call.

Later that day, I received a rather curt response from the sales manager, who said that whilst they could not ‘force’ me to complete the purchase, they were legally entitled to keep my £2000 deposit until such time the vehicle is sold to someone else. Furthermore, if the vehicle is sold at some point in the future for a price that is less than the price we agreed to pay, they can also come to us to make up the difference. They would also deduct additional money for admin and stocking charges. When I questioned this I was told it all in our terms and conditions.

At this point, I should say that at no point during the purchasing process were these terms and conditions explained to us. We were not offered a copy of them, nor were we given them. T’s & C’s were never mentioned.

The following day, I received an email from the salesman asking me to log in to our customer portal, where I could upload a copy of the documents they require us to sign and submit, and where we could find a copy of their T’s & C’s. So, access to the T’s & C’s not being made available to me until the day after I cancelled our order in writing. Having read them, things remain unclear to me as everything is written in legal terms, but I can’t see where it explicitly states where they can do what they are saying they will do if we now default on the contract. Perhaps we should seek professional legal advice?

All in all, a very difficult and potentially expensive situation for us now, as we both know that the van isn’t going to work for us. Please don’t make the same mistakes we have.

Apologies for the long ramblings.

Good luck!

Forgetting the whole legal wrangle around the cancellation, have you considered getting the van and fitting a back box to store your chairs etc.? A PVC will be far more convenient for parking and you will over time adjust the amount of ‘stuff’ you carry with you.

 

[Northernraider]

Hi Tam
What you say about 'relisted due to time wasters' applies more to online advertising, eBay etc and usually private sellers.

I bought a camper off ebay (unseen !) when the winning bidder didn't complete.

Dealers are different and most are in business for the long haul. Reputation is key to being successful.

The salesman is upset about losing his commission.

The owner/manager is the person to appeal to.

There will be a cost to the dealer, if the time between the sale and change of mind is short the cost will be minimal.

The dealer may be entitled to keep the money but should balance that with being fair.

I've been in business for 40 years in the same premises and have had customers change their minds.

The only time I would even consider keeping a deposit is if an item was being made bespoke.

If the item was a stock item it just goes back into stock.......

Treat customers fairly and they are more likely to return.

In this case the OP said it was just a change of mind and just hopes to get something back.

As I said - deal with the owner/manger - politely

Yes Vic the op states he saw the van listed on autotrader , it was most likely on several other selling platforms too. Half the motirhomes on ebay ,gumtree etc are trade sales.


But to be honest there are a lot of members on here who have successfully downsized from a large motorhome to a panel van and possibly had those same nerves and thoughts regarding size etc. If I was the op I wouldn't cause my self so much grief over one couple they met who struggle to adjust their travel style and I would continue to do as they did when they viewed the camper and "give it a go" if it doesn't work out re sell the camper themselves . Who knows they may either find it works perfect for them or when they sell it again they might turn a profit or lose less than the £2k they could possibly lose now.

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