Carver Cascade Water Heater Tie Rod Issue

[Pollypenny]

Hi, the tie rod in my carver cascade 2 water heater snapped at the nut end. Thankfully no issues getting the snapped part out of the nut or finding a replacement tie rod. My problem is the the water tank will not sit tight against the outer van section with the large seal as it is hitting the shoulder of the other end of the tie rod before it can. I've checked the length of the rod compared to the old one as thought maybe it is a few mil to long, but it is spot on. Also can't screw it in any more at the outer van end of the system. Really quite baffled by this so considering trimming it off but know this could go horribly wrong too if I trim off too much. Any thoughts/ideas very welcome please?

 

[mitzimad]

all these carvers are 20 plus years old now why not replace it magnum motor homes do a kit so you can straight swop it

 

[Spriddler]

I also had the tie rod snap on my Carver Cascade (a common corrosion issue apparently). I did a full refurbish and all parts were available.
The ends of the tie rod are different so have you fitted the tie rod the right way round?

 

[Pollypenny]

all these carvers are 20 plus years old now why not replace it magnum motor homes do a kit so you can straight swop it

Thanks but I am doing the repair in order to sell and apart from the tie rod issue it all works fine

 

[Pollypenny]

I also had the tie rod snap on my Carver Cascade (a common corrosion issue apparently). I did a full refurbish and all parts were available.
The ends of the tie rod are different so have you fitted the tie rod the right way round?

View attachment 916270

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View attachment 916266

Hi, yes I have as the end the nut goes on also has a hole where the electrical gubbings goes on and a small plastic bolt bolts into the end of the tie rod. Also I made a note of how it fitted when I removed the old one. It's quite baffling

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[Spriddler]

Hmm, very odd if the new tie rod is the same length as the old one. How much gap is there left between the water can and the casting?
Here's a diagram if it helps......

Strange that yours broke at the nut/electrical end because they usually snap at the other end where it screws into the body casting.
Maybe there's debris still in the body casting which is preventing the tie rod rod from going all the way in?

This is where mine broke......

 

[Pollypenny]

Hmm, very odd if the new tie rod is the same length as the old one. How much gap is there left between the water can and the casting?
Here's a diagram if it helps......

View attachment 916283

Strange that yours broke at the nut/electrical end because they usually snap at the other end where it screws into the body casting.
Maybe there's debris still in the body casting which is preventing the tie rod rod from going all the way in?

This is where mine broke......

View attachment 916280View attachment 916281

I will take some pics, but have checked for debris and all clear. I also removed the small seal from the tie rod as I'd initially followed the advice in an online video where they had popped this onto the nut end of the rod before inserting it through the tank hole. I now believe this goes on the outside of the tank before the spacer then the nut. This made no difference though.

 

[Pollypenny]

I will take some pics, but have checked for debris and all clear. I also removed the small seal from the tie rod as I'd initially followed the advice in an online video where they had popped this onto the nut end of the rod before inserting it through the tank hole. I now believe this goes on the outside of the tank before the spacer then the nut. This made no difference though.

 

[Spriddler]

I don't think that will seal as the large 'O' ring needs to be compressed when the nut is tightened. Your can sounds as though it is making metallic contact with something before this can occur.
The exposed end of your rod is different from mine. Mine is also a Carver Cascade 2 so maybe the design changed at some point, but are you certain that your replacement is exactly identical to the old one?
The rubber seal goes on the rod outside the can, then a thick flanged steel washer, then the nut.

This is the end of my rod, with a reduced diameter and and unthreaded section at the end .........

It seems that as a non-subscriber you've used your 5 free posts but in any case I don't think I can be of much more help. Good luck!

 

[oldiesontour]

I usually replace the tie rod with a piece of stainless steel threaded bar , from memory a 1 MTR length (will do 2) from Screwfix about £10

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[Spriddler]

I usually replace the tie rod with a piece of stainless steel threaded bar

Yebbut, the OP wrote that the rod is drilled and tapped internally (presumably for fixing the electrical connection panel to it) and not many would have the ability to do that.

 

[oldiesontour]

The connection box stays in place without the CTR plastic bolt if the earth connection is located in the right position,or a dot of purpose adhesive...also remembering the insulation jacket further holds it in place,the original plastic bolt is little more than a locator for the benefit of aligning the reset button

 

[Pollypenny]

I don't think that will seal as the large 'O' ring needs to be compressed when the nut is tightened. Your can sounds as though it is making metallic contact with something before this can occur.
The exposed end of your rod is different from mine. Mine is also a Carver Cascade 2 so maybe the design changed at some point, but are you certain that your replacement is exactly identical to the old one?
The rubber seal goes on the rod outside the can, then a thick flanged steel washer, then the nut.


View attachment 916358

This is the end of my rod, with a reduced diameter and and unthreaded section at the end .........

View attachment 916338

View attachment 916374


It seems that as a non-subscriber you've used your 5 free posts but in any case I don't think I can be of much more help. Good luck!

Sorry about that but I have now subscribed. Anyway, it seems the original tie bar also never provided a flush fit of the cylinder so goodness knows how it never leaked! So I have trimmed off about 3mm in order to ensure a good fit which resolved that issue but then hit a further issue after water testing. It leaks, but not from around the seal. Instead the cylinder itself has a small barely noticeable corroded area which allowed water to seep out. I've now ordered a replacement second hand cylinder from ebay so we will see whether this is the last of the issues once it arrives and fitted. Thankfully I'm in no hurry! By the way does anyone know what this is for (circled in blue) as I can't see that I was connected to it or see any cables that could connect to it??

 

[oldiesontour]

The circled 5 pin din socket was used to plug the earlier controller into you have the later push button controller so the circled one is unused.Whilst it's apart check the ends on the burner (box) they corroded to leave holes which affects the heat output eventually causing insufficient heat to trip the heat sensor,causing shutdown ( new burner circa £40 eBay)

 

[Pollypenny]

The saga continues as the new (second hand) tank was slightly different to the old one in so much as the new tie bar would have created a perfect fit had I not trimmed 3mm off the burner end. So I've glued it back on and also replaced the seals for the element, but now that leaks! I also had to file the element hole on the new tank as it was slightly smaller than on the original tank. What's frustrating is I water tested it yesterday and it was perfect, fitted in this morning and a tiny leak from the element seals. Do you think fibre washers would be better than rubber seals? These are the ones I bought https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16310893...pid=5339023013&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1

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[oldiesontour]

The saga continues as the new (second hand) tank was slightly different to the old one in so much as the new tie bar would have created a perfect fit had I not trimmed 3mm off the burner end. So I've glued it back on and also replaced the seals for the element, but now that leaks! I also had to file the element hole on the new tank as it was slightly smaller than on the original tank. What's frustrating is I water tested it yesterday and it was perfect, fitted in this morning and a tiny leak from the element seals. Do you think fibre washers would be better than rubber seals? These are the ones I bought https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16310893...pid=5339023013&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1

Silicone on seals usually does the job

 

[Pollypenny]

Silicone on seals usually does the job

Would that need to be a special type of silicone sealer as it will be subjected to very hot water?

 

[Pollypenny]

I don't think that will seal as the large 'O' ring needs to be compressed when the nut is tightened. Your can sounds as though it is making metallic contact with something before this can occur.
The exposed end of your rod is different from mine. Mine is also a Carver Cascade 2 so maybe the design changed at some point, but are you certain that your replacement is exactly identical to the old one?
The rubber seal goes on the rod outside the can, then a thick flanged steel washer, then the nut.


View attachment 916358

This is the end of my rod, with a reduced diameter and and unthreaded section at the end .........

View attachment 916338

View attachment 916374


It seems that as a non-subscriber you've used your 5 free posts but in any case I don't think I can be of much more help. Good luck!

How did you attach the electrical part as the tie rod needs a hole to screw this too? Or is yours just gas operated? To me it looks like the end you have secured through the tank hole is the end that should be fitted to the other end?

 

[Pollypenny]

I don't think that will seal as the large 'O' ring needs to be compressed when the nut is tightened. Your can sounds as though it is making metallic contact with something before this can occur.
The exposed end of your rod is different from mine. Mine is also a Carver Cascade 2 so maybe the design changed at some point, but are you certain that your replacement is exactly identical to the old one?
The rubber seal goes on the rod outside the can, then a thick flanged steel washer, then the nut.


View attachment 916358

This is the end of my rod, with a reduced diameter and and unthreaded section at the end .........

View attachment 916338

View attachment 916374


It seems that as a non-subscriber you've used your 5 free posts but in any case I don't think I can be of much more help. Good luck!

The end circled in red should have a hole to attach the electrics and the end circled in black screws into the burner end. I also would expect the seal to leak if fitted over a threaded section which appears to be how you have done it, so was it ok or did you switch it around?

 

[Spriddler]

The end circled in red should have a hole to attach the electrics

I know yours needs an internal thread for the electrics box as I already pointed that out in my post #11

Yebbut, the OP wrote that the rod is drilled and tapped internally (presumably for fixing the electrical connection panel to it) and not many would have the ability to do that.

I didn't turn it round and the end with the flats (for a spanner) is at the leccy end as it should be.
I can't remember from 6 or 7 years ago how my leccy box is fixed but it's definitely not by the tie rod end nut.
Mine's (a 28 years old) gas and 230v water heater and it's still working fine on both.

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[Pollypenny]

Ours is 26 years old but the rod goes the other way as there is the hole to attach the electric box too. Guess yours must have had another way of connecting. I'm going to resort to sealant to improve the seal so do you happen to know if I need a special type for coping with being immersed in very hot water??

 

[Spriddler]

Most will be O.K.
30 seconds on Google brings up lots, e.g. Screwfix, up to 150 degC (yours will be much lower - around 70 degC).

No Nonsense Sanitary Silicone White 310ml - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. High performance acetoxy silicone for sealing around baths, showers, basins and sanitary ware. Provides a watertight flexible seal with anti-fungal properties. Fast curing, UV-resistant. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

 

[Pollypenny]

Most will be O.K.
30 seconds on Google brings up lots, e.g. Screwfix, up to 150 degC (yours will be much lower - around 70 degC).

No Nonsense Sanitary Silicone White 310ml - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. High performance acetoxy silicone for sealing around baths, showers, basins and sanitary ware. Provides a watertight flexible seal with anti-fungal properties. Fast curing, UV-resistant. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

Thank you. Was considering using Sticks Like Sh*t as have some and it claims to be fine in high temperatures, but not sure it's the best option so would prefer a sealant.

 

[Googlebot]

Thank you. Was considering using Sticks Like Sh*t as have some and it claims to be fine in high temperatures, but not sure it's the best option so would prefer a sealant.

Don’t use sticks like poop, it’s a grab adhesive and probably won’t work. Silicone should sort it.

 

[Spriddler]

Silicone is waterproof, remains 'soft' and is designed to seal.
'Sticks' is an adhesive and will harden. You'll have one heck of a job if you find it leaks and have to take it apart again.
Treat yourself to 6 quid's worth of the correct stuff. You know you're worth it.
Incidentally, my rubber washer bears on the unthreaded end part of the tie rod, not on the thread as you mentioned.
You obviously don't have the correct tie rod for your heater. I'd get in touch with the supplier and buy the right one.

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[oldiesontour]

Would that need to be a special type of silicone sealer as it will be subjected to very hot water?

Silicone will withstand temperature well in excess of the 70C max in your heater, sanitary silicone has an anti mould addative but won't make any difference for your application

 

[Pollypenny]

Silicone is waterproof, remains 'soft' and is designed to seal.
'Sticks' is an adhesive and will harden. You'll have one heck of a job if you find it leaks and have to take it apart again.
Treat yourself to 6 quid's worth of the correct stuff. You know you're worth it.
Incidentally, my rubber washer bears on the unthreaded end part of the tie rod, not on the thread as you mentioned.
You obviously don't have the correct tie rod for your heater. I'd get in touch with the supplier and buy the right one.

View attachment 920502

I have the correct tie rod especially since buying a new (well second hand) tank as the fit is now perfect since glueing back on the bit I'd trimmed off previously. I only referred to your seal looking like it would sit over the threaded section as this is how it looked in the below pic of yours, but if the smooth section went through then all good. Still not sure how you fitted the electric box though as the rods for gas and electric heaters have a hole at the other end where a small plastic bolt attaches it as per my second and third pics. The end which takes the spanner is the the gas burner end.

CARVER CASCADE 2 WATER HEATER TIE ROD BAR 12MM NEW.BEST QUALITY PART AVAILABLE | eBay

12MM THREAD CARVER CASCADE 2 WATER HEATER TIE ROD. A 12MM THREADED TIE BAR NEEDS A 19MM SPANNER TO FIT THE NUT. 12MM THREADS AT BOTH ENDS, 420MM LONG, COMPLETE WITH THREADED HOLE IN ONE END TO TAKE ELECTRIC BOX IF YOURS IS THE GAS/ELECTRIC 2PLUS OR RAPIDE MODEL AND FITS JUST THE GAS MODEL TOO.

www.ebay.co.uk

I bought some fancy sealant today after taking advice from my plumbing and heating engineer so fingers crossed when I water tightness test it tomorrow once cured I will finally be able to put it all together and fire it up!

 

[oldiesontour]

If you had used threaded rod as I suggested all the rest becomes irrelevant length,shoulders,tank etc and the security of the plastic box is easily sorted and will never corroded,I have done many over the last 10 yrs.
Hav t posted this for your benefit (as yours is sorted) but for others reading this thread in the future.
Hope all goes well under pressure test tomorrow

 

[Pollypenny]

If you had used threaded rod as I suggested all the rest becomes irrelevant length,shoulders,tank etc and the security of the plastic box is easily sorted and will never corroded,I have done many over the last 10 yrs.
Hav t posted this for your benefit (as yours is sorted) but for others reading this thread in the future.
Hope all goes well under pressure test tomorrow

Thanks that makes sense and just hope the sealant does the final trick. Getting a newer MH on Thursday so just wanting to get this one fit for selling

 

[Spriddler]

I only referred to your seal looking like it would sit over the threaded section as this is how it looked in the below pic of yours,

Understood. I used that pic with the end of the rod just poked through the case (not finally assembled) as it shows the plain reduced dia end as opposed to your externally threaded and and internally drilled and tapped end.
I can only say that I reassembled the unit exactly as it came apart, have not used any silicone and it is still working fine after 6 or 7 years.