Carthago vehicle battery charging issue

[andy63]

but why provide 3 negative connections instead of 1 if the second circuit didn’t need one. At present neither of the right hand pair appears to be in use.

I had a google at the instructions of said battery to battery and of the various wiring diagrams I could see it does appear as you say there should be a negative used from each battery
also mentions the unit won't work if the temp sensor switch is in the on position but no sensor is connected.
900001_Instruction_manual_Booster_WA_121525_EN.pdf

Andy

 

[denisejoe]

I was in Belgium a couple of years ago guy in next van couldn’t start helped him out checked everything engone battery on terminals 12.1 but on the battery it’s self 13. 4 turned out that the clamp on the positive couldn’t tighten fully even though the bolt was tight I had to put a couple of washers under the head of the bolt and then it was fine. age of vehicle 6 weeks from picking up new

 

[Pausim]

I had a google at the instructions of said battery to battery and of the various wiring diagrams I could see it does appear as you say there should be a negative used from each battery
also mentions the unit won't work if the temp sensor switch is in the on position but no sensor is connected.
900001_Instruction_manual_Booster_WA_121525_EN.pdf

Andy

If both battery negatives are joined it probably doesn’t matter which is used but I do think it matters that there is no negative attached to either of the negative terminals on the Ausgang side. Good point about the temperature sensor.

 

[Dave101]

It sounds to me as if the CBE mains charger is triggering the Schaudt WA121525 charger via the simulated D+ signal, may I suggest disconnecting the little white plug from the Schaudt and see if the drain from the starter battery stops whilst charging from EHU. If so, check the voltage of that white plug whilst mains charger is on, if it is 12+ volts then there is a problem either with the wiring from DS300 or the DS300 itself, that white plug should only supply voltage to the Schaudt when engine is running.
I also wondered about the temp jumper and although it is difficult to see in the photo posted, I concluded it is probably in the correct position.. ie. to the left - no temp sensor, but Paul needs to check that.

 

[andy63]

The connection points for "IGN on signal" and "mains charging signal" are adjacent to each other on the ds300 board.

thats what I have read as well....below a quote from a post I read some time ago..


"" On the DS300 the 12V supply for the simulated D+ is connected via the upper pin of the two pole connector immediately above the M6 negative stud. (Possibly a blue wire.) The other wire on the connector, possibly white, is the "S" signal from the battery charger. Pulling the connector should release both split charge and fridge relays.""

but it might be worth pointing out that not all DS300 boards have exactly the same layout... it can depend on the manufacturer...
mine is specific to the triango group and the mains charging signal wire comes in on a 4 pin connector , and I think if memory serves me right the ignition wire is on a separate connector..
Andy

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[Paul Frost]

I'm no electrician and just using logic to try and trace the source of the problem.
Andy - All of the wiring diagram options show at least 4 cables from the Schaudt and I only have 3. So that looks suspicious to me. I'm assuming that if there was a temperature sender it would be plugged into that socket to the right of the switch? As there isn't I will check the actual position of the switch, as the cover seems a bit offset to the the things underneath. I'll have a closer look at the DS300.
There is mention in the Carthago instruction manual about the battery not charging if the operating temperature is less than 5 degrees C and to heat the motorhome to at least 15 degrees, would that require a sensor or is it that it just won't happen?

GOVSZ - I'll look at the D+ plug tomorrow. But bear in mind the issue of the 3amp fuse that keeps blowing and is part of the D+ circuit I assume. Something must be causing that to happen.

 

[Dave101]

Agreed Andy.
Sorry, I was editing my post and didnt realize it had a 60 min edit window...
what I was about to add to this line... The connection points for "IGN on signal" and "mains charging signal" are adjacent to each other on the ds300 board.
... is that the mains charge signal, or "S" signal is also responsible for triggering the relay to charge the starter battery, but somehow may be activating the simulated D+ signal.

 

[Dave101]

GOVSZ - I'll look at the D+ plug tomorrow. But bear in mind the issue of the 3amp fuse that keeps blowing and is part of the D+ circuit I assume. Something must be causing that to happen.

Yes that is correct, hence partly why I suggested to try disconnect the white plug, and check that voltage.. there is something not quite right with that D+ circuit.

 

[andy63]

Andy - All of the wiring diagram options show at least 4 cables from the Schaudt and I only have 3. So that looks suspicious to me.

Seems odd to me as well
.but that was Pausim who mentioned that fact..i just looked up the instructions on the charger after reading his post..

Its not easy tracing faults if there are no decent instructions about on how the system is supposed to work and some decent wiring diagram..
I'm still thinking on balance a ds300 board fault..but its hard if you arnt able to play around with it yourself.. it might be worth a close look at the board to see if there are any obvious faults causing a short..
Andy

 

[Pausim]

All of the wiring diagram options show at least 4 cables from the Schaudt and I only have 3.

That is what I have been saying, I think you are missing the negative connection to the Ausgang (Output) side of the unit.

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[andy63]

is that the mains charge signal, or "S" signal is also responsible for triggering the relay to charge the starter battery,

Thats my understanding..Along with the indicator light on my control panel to say its on mains..
And while not wishing to cloud the waters further I will mention that when I was messing around on my ds300 board I found green wire that came in on the same connector as the mains charging sense wire..if that green wire was pulled I lost the d+ signal...that wire was traced from the base vehicle wiring..a ford in my case..
And that is not the ignition wire that we have been discussing.. so there is a bit more to the d+ signal than just an ignition feed To the board I think..
Andy

 

[Pausim]

there is a bit more to the d+ signal than just an ignition feed

I agree. The DS300 manual describes the connection at 12 as a simulated D+ output and as such it should only be active when the alternator is running. I imagine they use a simulated signal because the original D+ signal would be overloaded if used directly for all the functions it triggers.

 

[Dave101]

Yes, the Ford base supplies an "Engine run" signal to DS300 which triggers the D+ circuit, unfortunately I am not familiar with the Fiat setup therfore cannot provide exact info in that regard.

 

[andy63]

I agree. The DS300 manual describes the connection at 12 as a simulated D+ output and as such it should only be active when the alternator is running. I imagine they use a simulated signal because the original D+ signal would be overloaded if used directly for all the functions it triggers.

Agreed..a d+ signal used to be simply an alternator signal..it can mean quite a few things now and may require an ignition feed ...a certain voltage to be met...and even a certain speed ..
On the mk 7 transits ford provided a ground switching circut that switched when the above mentioned conditions were met... the user could use that circut to energise a relay..that relay could be fed with a 12v feed which effectively became a 12v engine run signal..
And apologies to the op for going slightly off topic
Andy

 

[Paul Frost]

GOVSZ- I couldn't remove the white plug from the Schaudt. There is limited space to get a good grip, but I did try quite hard and it wouldn't budge. I thought about using some pliers but was concerned that I may damage the plug but also not be able to plug it back in.

I couldn't see what position the temperature sensor switch was in, it's so small and sunken. I probed around with a very small screwdriver and I thought the switch moved, but I still couldn't see it's position. After using my iPad camera I could see better and can now confirm it's in the ohne(without) position. But I'm not sure if that's where it was before I started fiddling with it.

I'm now lost and confused with all the D+ and simulated D+ and the source of what makes it on or off. The 5amp fuse that keeps blowing in nowhere near the main electrical box in the rear garage. It's under the floor by the habitation door, there are 3 fuses that Carthago say are:
5A "right side marker lamps"
5A "left side marker lamps"
5A "D+ side marker lamps" this is the one that keeps blowing.
The leisure circuit main switch is there as well.

The DS300 has a 3A fuse labelled as "for OUT D+ simulated exit protection", that fuse is OK.

It looks like I've now gotten out of my depth in trying to troubleshoot this. I'm now hoping that I will be able to take it to the dealer next week and that their electrician can read this thread and find things in it that may help him trace the problem. Hopefully he can also look at other Carthago's that are in stock and compare the wiring and spot any differences.
Thanks for all the help so far.

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[andy63]

The DS300 has a 3A fuse labelled as "for OUT D+ simulated exit protection", that fuse is OK.

in my ramblings to you in posts above thats the fuse I thought you were referring to when you said the d+ fuse was blowing and my assumption the fault may lie with the ds300 board.. so thats my theory gone..
sorry..
hope you can get it sorted..
Andy

 

[Dave101]

Probably a wise decision, I'm sure the electrician at the dealer will have more indepth knowledge of the system than any of us here anyway and will probably troubleshoot it very quickly.

 

[Dave101]

in my ramblings to you in posts above thats the fuse I thought you were referring to when you said the d+ fuse was blowing and my assumption the fault may lie with the ds300 board.. so thats my theory gone..
sorry..
hope you can get it sorted..
Andy

I was also under the same impression, clearly there is a problem that needs to be resolved, but it is likely independent of the starter battery voltage issue which could then simply be battery failure.

 

[Paul Frost]

...but it is likely independent of the starter battery voltage issue which could then simply be battery failure.

I don't see how the starter battery voltage problem is unconnected. That battery holds it's voltage reasonably well when the vehicle is not plugged into electric. It goes from 12.9v down to 12.2v over 14 days. I don't know if that's good or average considering the alarm and tracker are on. But once it went from 12.7 to 11.6v within 18 mins of being plugged in, then down to 11.28v 2 hours later. Another time it went from 12.9v down to 11.8v within 12 hours of being plugged in.

All of the issues seem to have a common denominator, a D+ signal is involved.
Leisure battery not charging whilst driving.
Fridge not working on battery whilst driving.
Step out warning not working when engine started.
Step out warning goes off when plugged into electric.
5A "D+ side marker lamps" fuse keeps blowing.
It seems that the vehicle battery is drained by the leisure battery when plugged into electric.
The vehicle battery is not charged by the built in charger when on electric, but is charged by the alternator.

Plus the solenoid operated valve on the toilet flush is permanently on.

 

[Dave101]

Agreed Paul, which is what led me to suggest what I did, and it does still point somewhat in that direction... Is your appointment at the dealers still going ahead?

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[Paul Frost]

At the moment it's still on. But I will be checking with them before setting off on the 200 mile journey. Fortunatly I'm in a level 1 area in Scotland and I would consider this a necessary journey.

 

[andy63]

I dont want to speculate any further on your issue, but in an earlier post you did ask if the fault I was suggesting could drain the start battery..I couldn't answer that , but did notice when I was reading the instructions on your battery to battery charger that one of the set ups used the fridge 12v wire to charge the start battery..so a fault in that unit as has been suggested by yourself and others could lead to a discharge of the start battery..
Heres a screenshot of the relevant section..

 

[Paul Frost]

Whilst I don't fully understand the electrical bit I can see the logic of how this could be the potential source of the problems. The only fly in the ointment is that the wires coming out from the booster don't match that wiring diagram. But then again they don't match any of the wiring options in the installation guide!

 

[Pausim]

Whilst I don't fully understand the electrical bit I can see the logic of how this could be the potential source of the problems. The only fly in the ointment is that the wires coming out from the booster don't match that wiring diagram. But then again they don't match any of the wiring options in the installation guide!

I agree it is a potential source of some, though possibly not all, of your problems. It looks a bit of an afterthought to me, the wiring does not appear to be part of the original loom. The wiring diagrams suggest that it was developed for use with EBLs though with suitable wiring it ought to work with other distribution systems. The one thing that all the wiring diagrams show but is missing on yours is the second negative connection to the output side and that would be easy to put right. I know my Victron Orion didn’t work without it because the input and output sides are completely isolated from each other, in some applications they have to be.

 

[autorouter]

I dont want to speculate any further on your issue, but in an earlier post you did ask if the fault I was suggesting could drain the start battery..I couldn't answer that , but did notice when I was reading the instructions on your battery to battery charger that one of the set ups used the fridge 12v wire to charge the start battery..so a fault in that unit as has been suggested by yourself and others could lead to a discharge of the start battery..

The CBE is a 'Third Party Unit', ie not an EBL. I'm not very familiar with CBE units, but the one I've seen have a Starter Battery input that is also used as a route to charge the starter battery from the mains charger,and also sense the starter battery voltage. That means it would use a bypass relay, as in the diagram (post #82).

The bypass relay is switched by the D+ signal from the alternator (or a simulated D+signal). If there's a problem with the D+ fuse blowing, this may be the cause. Also if it's faulty it may cut off the mains charger from the starter battery.

The bypass relay switches the WA1215 into play when the engine is running, and bypasses it when the engine is stopped.

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[royw]

just as a point everyone is pointing to voltage levels to check charging, if you actually put a meter on current or a specific current meter in series you can see exactly what current is flowing and which direction.

 

[Dave101]

Scince the D+ is much under suspicion, a simple voltage check under all conditions of the D+ output of the DS300 would answer the question, of course it doesn't tell you where the fault is but gives direction for further diagnosis. There are many possibilities, I don't know the Carthago system, but the Fridge too may well have a circuit board with a D+ connection from the ds300 responsible for allowing 12v operation.
That all said, the OP has indicated that he will get it to the dealer for further troubleshooting and repair, I'm sure they get it sorted out for him.

 

[Paul Frost]

On Monday I did some more tests and got closer to identifying the issue. It wasn't anything to do with being plugged into electric. It was when I turned on the control panel and the 12v circuit I noticed that the Schaudt Green led lit up and the icon on the control panel showed that the vehicle and leisure battery were linked and being charged by the alternator, but the engine wasn't running. Thus the leisure battery was draining the vehicle battery.

I took the MoHo back to the dealer on Tuesday and it looks like the problem has now been resolved.
They started by replacing various parts, Control panel, DS300 and the Schaudt Booster but still the problem. Then they phoned Carthago in Germany and explained the problem and Carthago immediately told then the likely cause.
On the DS300, connection number 16 - Signals:
1) + input signal contact key engine starting
2) + input signal "S" net coming from the CBE battery charger

There should not be anything plugged into this on my model of MoHo. It is only used when there is an AES fridge fitted. But there was a plug in that socket, it has now been removed, and that is now labelled with a blue bit of tape marked "do not use".

Above is how it looks now, and below is how it was before.

All the problems with charging and the step warning buzzer and the toilet flush went away as soon as that was unplugged.
There was some suggestion that I must have plugged it in (I didn't) but if the factory didn't plug it in as it wasn't required for this model shouldn't they have wrapped it in electrical tape like it is now? Or even better, labelled it as to it's purpose in case the fridge was changed at a later date.

This could have been resolved without 2 x 400 mile round trips to the dealer if they had just contacted Carthago in the first place. I asked them to forward on an email from me detailing the issue, as I suspected that it might be a simple fault that they had come across before. But they insisted that they needed to to examine the vehicle first before contacting Carthago.

 

[andy63]

Nice to have an update and satisfactory conclusion...
Shame they hadn't done as you asked in the first place..
Andy

 

[Compactliner]

although not an electrical 'expert' ive followed this thread with interest, especially as i have a Compactline myself...im glad you have it resolved but i was interested your comment....
"There should not be anything plugged into this on my model of MoHo. It is only used when there is an AES fridge fitted."

the website says the following std equipment is fitted
"Slimtower opening from both sides, separate freezer compartment, automatic energy source search 12 V / 230 V / gas operation"

AFAIK, our 3-way fridge freezer is AES....Ill have a look at the CBE wiring sometime to see whats fitted in connection 16.

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