Can you start motorhome to warm engine while gas is turned on?

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thekindnesscoach

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Can you start motorhome to warm engine while gas is turned on?
 
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Badknee
thekindnesscoach said:
Thank you for your feedback, so are you also saying it is okay to turn in the engine whilst the gas is in? Thanks
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I’m sorry but are you reading these helpful replies or not?
It is safe to start your engine with the gas on.
It is prudent not to let your engine tick over.
External screens means no condensation.
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Pausim said:
I thought the open flame of a fridge wasn’t allowed in filling stations.
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Once you've driven in and stopped the fridge, which would have been powered from 12v, will not work on gas for at least 15 minutes (assuming it's an AES so auto-switches). The exception is those who drive with the fridge running on gas.
 
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Minxy said:
Once you've driven in and stopped the fridge, which would have been powered from 12v, will not work on gas for at least 15 minutes (assuming it's an AES so auto-switches). The exception is those who drive with the fridge running on gas.
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As far as I'm aware it is illegal to have a fridge running on gas whilst the van is moving.

Hence in most modern (this century) vans you can leave the gas on all the time. (Just turn off when in storage or on ferries/long tunnels)

When the engine starts, the gas is cut off, and the fridge then runs on 12v electricity.

When the engine is switched off (at campsite or fuel station), the fridge will stay running on 12v for 15 mins, before the gas then automatically comes on.

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L' Hobo said:
It is when at other times it's OFF! :unsure:
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Here’s a link to Secumotion which lots of newer vans have installed from new and explains what it does😊

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Speve said:
Here’s a link to Secumotion which lots of newer vans have installed from new and explains what it does😊

Southdowns Motorhome Centre

Welcome to South Downs Motorhomes – your destination for top-quality new and used motorhomes. Explore our extensive range, expert services, and tailored finance options. Start your journey with us today!
www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk www.southdownsmotorcaravans.co.uk
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Thankyou but I don't have a Truma and, even if I had, I would not want the risk/problems of disturbing a perfectly sound & safe gas system to have fitted something that might leak.
 
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L' Hobo said:
Thankyou but I don't have a Truma and, even if I had, I would not want the risk/problems of disturbing a perfectly sound & safe gas system to have fitted something that might leak.
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I am sure you are right about it being perfectly sound and safe when used in accordance with its design. Probably ok when driving and in minor accidents. Not so sure about what would happen in a major shunt if the pipe work was ruptured. Normally I would say your choice, your risk but it could affect others particularly the rescue services.

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Pausim said:
I am sure you are right about it being perfectly sound and safe when used in accordance with its design. Probably ok when driving and in minor accidents. Not so sure about what would happen in a major shunt if the pipe work was ruptured. Normally I would say your choice, your risk but it could affect others particularly the rescue services.
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I understand where your coming from but the Gaslow system that I have, is fitted with a cut-off valve, should there be a sudden release of gas? This has been there for a number of years. :unsure:
 
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Murrays said:
We never turn the gas off and the fridge stays on gas all the time, moving or not. We have crash sensor, etc so I don't see why there would be an issue.
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That's might be ok until you come across a petrol spillage with fumes everywhere, at that point your probably going to wish you'd turned your gas off and weren't driving with a naked flame 🔥🔥🔥
That's why it's against the regs 👍
 
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L' Hobo said:
I understand where your coming from but the Gaslow system that I have, is fitted with a cut-off valve, should there be a sudden release of gas? This has been there for a number of years. :unsure:
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That will protect the high pressure hose up to the regulator. A leak or pipe break on the low pressure side that distributes the gas around the motorhome will not be protected.
 
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Pausim said:
That will protect the high pressure hose up to the regulator. A leak or pipe break on the low pressure side that distributes the gas around the motorhome will not be protected.
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Yep, that's why you need a crash safe regulator.
 
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Brains said:
As far as I'm aware it is illegal to have a fridge running on gas whilst the van is moving.

Hence in most modern (this century) vans you can leave the gas on all the time. (Just turn off when in storage or on ferries/long tunnels)

When the engine starts, the gas is cut off, and the fridge then runs on 12v electricity.

When the engine is switched off (at campsite or fuel station), the fridge will stay running on 12v for 15 mins, before the gas then automatically comes on.
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I am not convinced it is actually "illegal" to have a fridge running on gas while travelling, I agree that is is not ideal and certainly is an issue when you go into a fuel station.

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funflair said:
I am not convinced it is actually "illegal" to have a fridge running on gas while travelling, I agree that is is not ideal and certainly is an issue when you go into a fuel station.
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It has a naked flame which is not permitted under construction & use regulations.
 
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Unless we are on ehu our fridge is always turned on using gas.
I don't turn the gaslow cylinders off when refilling.
Too many other things to worry about.
Watch this space 🤔😂
 
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Tigertom said:
Unless we are on ehu our fridge is always turned on using gas.
I don't turn the gaslow cylinders off when refilling.
Too many other things to worry about.
Watch this space 🤔😂
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A filling station near us was blown up some years ago due to an idiot running his fridge on gas.

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L' Hobo said:
Can I say, for those that are not mechanically minded, Don't Panic! :LOL:

While I agree with most of what has been said about engines idling and it is best if you do as I do, use it every week.

It is not essential that the minute your engine fires into life, you have to be off the grid like a racing driver.
It will happily set there idling for a few minutes while you clear the windscreen, check your lights etc as long as you take it for a decent run after.

In the olden days, we used to blank off part of the radiator so that it warmed up quicker!
(not sure if this acceptable with modern engines but if it gets really cold, that's what I'll be doing while keeping an eye on my temp. gauge)
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It is annoying though. The number of times I've been parked up at a campsite/motorhome park or similar and the guy next door, clearly getting ready to go (all packed up etc) , starts the engine but then doesn't move for several minutes. Meanwhile we have to 'enjoy' the rattle of the diesel engine while our intention was to enjoy the peace and quiet! Just clear the window with a cloth (if necessary) and go!
 
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Pick the bones out of this……. (y)

5B007A8C-C2A2-43D7-B33C-55B91732D5CF.png
 
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Lenny HB said:
It has a naked flame which is not permitted under construction & use regulations.
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I can see where you would get that from in the construction and use regs, is the naked flame on the outside of the appliance? quite possibly so 3c applies but with the added reference to schedule 5.

Use of gas-fired appliances when a vehicle is in motion​

96.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), this regulation applies to every motor vehicle and trailer.

(2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) do not apply to a vehicle constructed or adapted for the conveyance of goods under controlled temperatures.

(3) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in any vehicle to which this paragraph applies, while the vehicle is in motion on a road, any gas-fired appliance except—

(a)a gas-fired appliance which is fitted to engineering plant while the plant is being used for the purposes of the engineering operations for which it was designed;

(b)a gas-fired appliance which is permanently attached to a bus, provided that any appliance for heating or cooling the interior of the bus for the comfort of the driver and any passengers does not expose a naked flame on the outside of the appliance; or

(c)in any other vehicle, a refrigerating appliance or an appliance which does not expose a naked flame on the outside of the appliance and which is permanently attached to the vehicle and designed for the purpose of heating any part of the interior of the vehicle for the comfort of the driver and any passengers.

(4) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in any vehicle to which this paragraph applies, while the vehicle is in motion on a road, any gas-fired appliance to which—

(a)sub-paragraph (3)(a) refers, unless the appliance complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12 and 13 of Schedule 5 and the gas system to which it is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9 and 15 of Schedule 5; or

(b)sub-paragraph (3)(b) refers, unless the appliance complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12, 13 and 14 of Schedule 5 and the gas system to which it is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9, 11 and 15 of Schedule 5; or

(c)sub-paragraph (3)(c) refers, unless the appliance complies—

(i)if it is fitted to a motor vehicle, with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12, 13 and 14 of Schedule 5; and

(ii)in any other case, with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12 and 13 of Schedule 5;

and the gas system to which the appliance is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9 and 15 of Schedule 5.

(5) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in a vehicle to which this regulation applies which is in motion on a road any gas-fired appliance unless it is fitted with a valve which stops the supply of gas to the appliance if the appliance fails to perform its function and causes gas to be emitted.

When you get down to the bit highlighted bold and have to refer to Schedule 5 with paragraphs 12,13,14, as follows, which suggests to me that a fridge so designed is exempt from the "naked flame" clause.


Gas-fired appliances​

12. Every part of a gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so designed and constructed that leakage of gas is unlikely to occur, and
(b)constructed of materials which are compatible both with each other and with the gas used.
13. Every gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so located as to be easily inspected and maintained,
(b)so located and either insulated or shielded that its use shall not cause or be likely to cause danger due to the presence of any flammable material,
(c)so constructed and located as not to impose undue stress on any pipe or fitting, and
(d)so fastened or located as not to work loose or move in relation to the vehicle.
14. With the exception of catalytic heating appliances, every appliance of the kind described in regulation 96(3)(b) or (c) which is fitted to a motor vehicle shall be fitted with a flue which shall be—
(a)connected to an outlet which is on the outside of the vehicle,
(b)constructed and located so as to prevent any expelled matter from entering the vehicle, and
(c)located so that it will not cause any adverse effect to, or suffer any adverse effect from, the exhaust outlet of any engine or any other source of heat.

General requirements​

15. Every part of a gas propulsion system or a gas-fired appliance system, excluding the appliance itself, shall be—
(a)so far as is practicable so located or protected as not to be exposed to accidental damage,
(b)soundly and properly constructed of materials which are compatible with one another and with the gas used or to be used and which are capable of withstanding the loads and stresses likely to be met in operation, and
(c)so designed and constructed that leakage of gas is unlikely to occur.
(1)
To which there are no relevant amending instruments.
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thekindnesscoach said:
I just want to turn in the engine to warm up the van & recharge my leisure/van battery instead of getting out & turning of the gas every morning 🥶
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I assume you have heating for the van - gas or diesel? If so, why use the engine to warm up the van? Not good for the engine to idle for a long time.

You will have to run the engine for a long time to charge up the batteries. 20 minutes minimum for the starter battery bt depending on your electrical set up it could be hours for the leisure batteries - better to get solar panels or a generator if you are going to be off grid for extended periods of time.

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General question - I've often wondered. :unsure: On most modern motorhomes the fridge automatically moves to 12V when travelling and the gas won't start for 15 minutes for safety reasons (pulling into a petrol station).

Does the Truma Gas heating system have similar protections? Would the gas heating switch off if it was still on when you started the engine? Anyone tried it?
 
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funflair said:
I can see where you would get that from in the construction and use regs, is the naked flame on the outside of the appliance? quite possibly so 3c applies but with the added reference to schedule 5.

Use of gas-fired appliances when a vehicle is in motion​

96.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), this regulation applies to every motor vehicle and trailer.

(2) Paragraphs (3) and (4) do not apply to a vehicle constructed or adapted for the conveyance of goods under controlled temperatures.

(3) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in any vehicle to which this paragraph applies, while the vehicle is in motion on a road, any gas-fired appliance except—

(a)a gas-fired appliance which is fitted to engineering plant while the plant is being used for the purposes of the engineering operations for which it was designed;

(b)a gas-fired appliance which is permanently attached to a bus, provided that any appliance for heating or cooling the interior of the bus for the comfort of the driver and any passengers does not expose a naked flame on the outside of the appliance; or

(c)in any other vehicle, a refrigerating appliance or an appliance which does not expose a naked flame on the outside of the appliance and which is permanently attached to the vehicle and designed for the purpose of heating any part of the interior of the vehicle for the comfort of the driver and any passengers.

(4) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in any vehicle to which this paragraph applies, while the vehicle is in motion on a road, any gas-fired appliance to which—

(a)sub-paragraph (3)(a) refers, unless the appliance complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12 and 13 of Schedule 5 and the gas system to which it is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9 and 15 of Schedule 5; or

(b)sub-paragraph (3)(b) refers, unless the appliance complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12, 13 and 14 of Schedule 5 and the gas system to which it is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9, 11 and 15 of Schedule 5; or

(c)sub-paragraph (3)(c) refers, unless the appliance complies—

(i)if it is fitted to a motor vehicle, with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12, 13 and 14 of Schedule 5; and

(ii)in any other case, with the requirements specified in paragraphs 12 and 13 of Schedule 5;

and the gas system to which the appliance is attached complies with the requirements specified in paragraphs 2 to 9 and 15 of Schedule 5.

(5) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, in a vehicle to which this regulation applies which is in motion on a road any gas-fired appliance unless it is fitted with a valve which stops the supply of gas to the appliance if the appliance fails to perform its function and causes gas to be emitted.

When you get down to the bit highlighted bold and have to refer to Schedule 5 with paragraphs 12,13,14, as follows, which suggests to me that a fridge so designed is exempt from the "naked flame" clause.

​

Gas-fired appliances​

12. Every part of a gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so designed and constructed that leakage of gas is unlikely to occur, and
(b)constructed of materials which are compatible both with each other and with the gas used.
13. Every gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so located as to be easily inspected and maintained,
(b)so located and either insulated or shielded that its use shall not cause or be likely to cause danger due to the presence of any flammable material,
(c)so constructed and located as not to impose undue stress on any pipe or fitting, and
(d)so fastened or located as not to work loose or move in relation to the vehicle.
14. With the exception of catalytic heating appliances, every appliance of the kind described in regulation 96(3)(b) or (c) which is fitted to a motor vehicle shall be fitted with a flue which shall be—
(a)connected to an outlet which is on the outside of the vehicle,
(b)constructed and located so as to prevent any expelled matter from entering the vehicle, and
(c)located so that it will not cause any adverse effect to, or suffer any adverse effect from, the exhaust outlet of any engine or any other source of heat.

General requirements​

15. Every part of a gas propulsion system or a gas-fired appliance system, excluding the appliance itself, shall be—
(a)so far as is practicable so located or protected as not to be exposed to accidental damage,
(b)soundly and properly constructed of materials which are compatible with one another and with the gas used or to be used and which are capable of withstanding the loads and stresses likely to be met in operation, and
(c)so designed and constructed that leakage of gas is unlikely to occur.
(1)
To which there are no relevant amending instruments.
Back to top
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As a fridge flame can be seen burning via the ventilation grill I would consider that to be outside the device (the fridge) so it contravenes the regulation. That's the way I view it,
 
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The flame is inside the vehicle, but outside the appliance…….so I read that as you would be contravening the regulations.

Could this be where others would read that differently?🤷‍♂️
 
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As I read it the allowable use of gas in certain circumstances is ONLY for heating, not for a fridge ...
 
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Sapper520 said:
The flame is inside the vehicle, but outside the appliance…….so I read that as you would be contravening the regulations.

Could this be where others would read that differently?🤷‍♂️
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You could argue that it's not "naked" as it can't be touched, I would say that a gas hob is a "naked" flame but an oven isn't, if there were no grills or steel covers over the fridge flame and you could touch it then I would say it was "naked".

Then look at Schedule 5, and does para 13b (below) apply? it says "materials" not liquids or gas, my interpretation is that is talking about naked flames that could set fire to clothing luggage combustible materials etc inside a vehicle, if it is talking about flammable liquid or gas even any combustion process even running an engine can cause an explosion, and of course re-fueling stations have their own set of regulations pertaining to naked flames and sparks, construction and use is looking just at the vehicle construction and use, forecourt regulations take it a stage further.

13. Every gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so located as to be easily inspected and maintained,
(b)so located and either insulated or shielded that its use shall not cause or be likely to cause danger due to the presence of any flammable material,

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funflair said:
You could argue that it's not "naked" as it can't be touched, I would say that a gas hob is a "naked" flame but an oven isn't, if there were no grills or steel covers over the fridge flame and you could touch it then I would say it was "naked".

Then look at Schedule 5, and does para 13b (below) apply? it says "materials" not liquids or gas, my interpretation is that is talking about naked flames that could set fire to clothing luggage combustible materials etc inside a vehicle, if it is talking about flammable liquid or gas even any combustion process even running an engine can cause an explosion, and of course re-fueling stations have their own set of regulations pertaining to naked flames and sparks, construction and use is looking just at the vehicle construction and use, forecourt regulations take it a stage further.

13. Every gas-fired appliance shall be—
(a)so located as to be easily inspected and maintained,
(b)so located and either insulated or shielded that its use shall not cause or be likely to cause danger due to the presence of any flammable material,
Click to expand...

I suppose, unless it’s been tested in court, who’s right?🤷‍♂️👍
 
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