Buying a House that has Subsidence !

[SpeedyDux]

I would also want a soils investigation. I came across a subsidence case in which the normal shallow strip foundations were used by the builder. They were no good because you would have had to dig down about 12 ft to get to a stable loadbearing level.

 

[Feltwell]

Would you buy a motorhome with Blue smoke?

If the price is right, yes!

 

[Abacist]

My father had to sue the firm (Chartered Surveyors) that did a structural survey on a bungalow that he was buying. Looking down on it the bungalow was the shape of a church cross. The roof had not been constructed properly and at the intersection of the cross, the roof was not properly supported. Lots of mild creaking and groaning now and again caused concern which brought the problem to light.

This goes back to the 1970's so the numbers will appear small. Cost of bungalow circa £15k. Cost to put it all right again including architects fees etc about £10k two or 3 years later. Absurd Court award was based on the unknown estimated difference in value of the property with a proper roof and without a proper roof instead of the actual cost to put it right! The award was about £3k! So Dad ended up badly out of pocket and it was lucky he could afford it.

So thinking the you can rely on suing the Chartered Surveyor for compensation if they get it wrong can still leave you seriously out of pocket!

 

[dunnah01]

Any surveyor that advises underpinning to resolve brine extraction or mining subsidence problems is an eedjit. It may solve aesthetic issues but will not solve structural problems. Just accept that a 100 year old house has got comfortable and will not collapse on your watch. Find an surveyor that knows this and Bobs your aunt's uncle or whatever they say

 

[Carolyn and Kev]

Would you buy a motorhome with Blue smoke?

Yes......But it All depends on the price of course.

Same with the house really. If the Underpinning is professionally rectified to the required level of repair, it will only affect the mortgage needy folks and not the more mature folks who may have the funds and are after a particular style of home.
Done it and moved one without any real issues to be really honest. The folks like us , were retired and knew of the issues and what was to be done.
It cost us a shade under £6k for the repairs . We sold for our asking price ....It's Like everything you buy....It's all a gamble, regardless of a survey report or not

Nothing more to add really.

Kev

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[Yorick]

You'll probably have problems when you come to sell it.

 

[PaddyM]

I would be asking why the Seller hasn’t sorted it via his buildings insurance.

That’s what we did ( outrigger was built with inadequate foundation in the gerry built extension heyday of the 70s ) , our insurance paid for the under pinning with no excess .
I watched the work being done and it was awesome to see. Huge steel “ cage “ built under the outrigger and then filled with concrete ( I think ) .
Surveyor said that the outrigger would now outlive the actual house !
Our buyers were happy with the outcome.

 

[Grianan]

I was brought up in Cheshire and whilst we were looking for our first house we came across many that had issues with salt mines. To be honest we decided we wouldn’t risk it. But then we’re both risk averse. There are plenty of properties not affected - maybe worth considering one of these?

 

[Chris]

Possibly didn't know about it if it is "slight"

Well the estate agent knows about it, so I suspect their client does too.

 

[olley]

I did a chalet conversion on a 1920's bungalow we owned, 20 years later when we sold, it turned out I didn't have planning or building regs, council said it's too long ago not interested, the buyer got insurance incase of any problems and that was it.

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[Dave Scadding]

Depends on price and how much land is attached. If it’s cheap and has some land attached it may be worth buying, knocking down and building 2 others?

 

[seasideBill]

Subsidence is like cancer, the word is frightening and we fear the worst, in many cases irrationally. For most, it can and does get permanently sorted.

 

[pampam]

Last year there was a lovely little bungalow for sale,advertised by estate agents with subsidence,we could read the extremely long report ,and the trouble seemed to be drainage,and overgrown roots from foliage from next door(churchyard) it wouldnt have bothered me cos it would be sold when i was dead,or if it became dangerous i would have demolished and put a static there,it was cash only ,but in a lovely position.anyway our house didnt sell so im stayin put good luck

 

[The general]

 

[rangi]

I'm with Emmit Don't ! RUN!!

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[CazPaul]

It’s funny but on our house they chucked down some bricks on the stone ground and started building, that’s why it looks all wavy when you stand back a bit.

Lime mortar allows settlement without cracking. Natural movement of the building.

 

[Nanniemate]

As a mortgage broker, I would run a mile....

A house with subsidence will be forever blighted, you will probably find that you will only be able to get insurance through the existing insurer, which may not be cheap.

If you are still serious, you need to get a full structural survey @ £1k? and then get firm quotes for any remedial work, and be prepared for possibly months of upheaval during the repairs.

Think carefully, I assume you are looking because it is cheap? there is always a reason if its cheap.

If that were the case many houses in Wales would be in trouble .let alone many bomb damaged properties from the 2WW. GEt a full survey legally binding and the surveyors will be covered by indemnity insurance if they get it wrong. Many people are frightened by it the S word but more people are living in warm safe comfortable homes either with it or having it repaired.
If you really love it get a full structural survey and maybe them make a decision
You luck

 

[Coastal Cruiser.]

When I use to have the MOD maintenance contract one of the jobs was to underpin a commercial unit on base, turns out it was the explosive store hence why we had to do it all from outside and with a guard watching us alm the time

I dug out some foundations last summer for a mate who was doing an extension on a house that had bad subsidence, the floor in the hallway dropped about 2 inches over 5ft chap who owns said it will be ok so it’s been left.
When you walk up to the house you can see it has dropped, in the upstairs bedroom the floor joist and floorboards are about 1+ away from the wall

 

[Minxy]

We were buying a bungalow back in 1993 which we were informed had some issues by the damp check bloke who noticed that none of the doors closed properly. We had a survey done and it turned out that it had been built using too strong mortar so instead of the mortar 'giving' for any slight movement (very common due to clay) the bricks were cracking instead thus it would likely get worse and cosmetically 'ugly' if not more serious in the future. We walked away.

When we were selling our first home the buyer's mortgage surveyor said we had recent subsidence! We didn't as it was historic from the second world war and only affected a very small area which had been previously dealt with. The next purchasers had no issues at all and we suspect that the surveyor for the first ones was 'asked' to give a bad report so a mortgage could be refused.

 

[Minxy]

I dug out some foundations last summer for a mate who was doing an extension on a house that had bad subsidence, the floor in the hallway dropped about 2 inches over 5ft chap who owns said it will be ok so it’s been left.
When you walk up to the house you can see it has dropped, in the upstairs bedroom the floor joist and floorboards are about 1+ away from the wall

I'm gonna have fun selling my mum's flat which has historic subsidence and has sloping floors, not as bad as 2" but the washing machine often tried to creep across the floor when spinning.

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[Coastal Cruiser.]

I'm gonna have fun selling my mum's flat which has historic subsidence and has sloping floors, not as bad as 2" but the washing machine often tried to creep across the floor when spinning.

Just say it’s a feature

 

[Rosemary1]

I was brought up in Cheshire and whilst we were looking for our first house we came across many that had issues with salt mines. To be honest we decided we wouldn’t risk it. But then we’re both risk averse. There are plenty of properties not affected - maybe worth considering one of these?

We used to live in Cheshire - 5 houses mainly around Northwich - lots of issues with subsidence/salt mines, we always had the full survey and only continued with purchase only if free of subsidence issues (lost a few houses that way) but we are risk averse too and also didnt want any problems with insurance and selling.

Moved out of Cheshire and the main issue with latest purchase was risk of flooding - so many houses throughout the country could be effected in the near future, it’s frightening.

 

[Janine]

I'm gonna have fun selling my mum's flat which has historic subsidence and has sloping floors, not as bad as 2" but the washing machine often tried to creep across the floor when spinning.

Blame it on a ghost

 

[Yorick]

No subsidence problems here in Lanzarote

 

[Tea Bag]

I would be asking why the Seller hasn’t sorted it via his buildings insurance.

Hi.
We went to view a house in Hythe Hampshire. Chap selling met us in Hythe and took us to the house. Looked over it,bit of a crack in a back wall under a window,still we quite liked it, seller offered to part chop our bungalow in Derbyshire. Took us out a different route back into Hythe. But... I went back,some had two dormer windows and some had three upstairs. Chap gardening up the road,so i walked up and asked what the difference was. He asked if we were looking to buy the house,we said yes. He walked back with us,pointed out the crack at the back and said it was subsidence,thought to have been caused by a huge tree nearby taking all the water..?. The owner had got the money from the Insurers and put it in his pocket.. THATS why he wanted to part chop your bungalow.
You could NOT get a mortgage on it.
BEWARE.
Tea Bag

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[stevewagner]

Lots of good advice and some not so good. It could just be that the original foundations were not deep enough given the house is nearly 100 years old. Subsidence is not an issue if identified and rectified to an acceptable standard. A good structural engineer will provide a report and a solution which should be approved and signed off by your local authority Building Control. In some cases non-invasive repairs can be carried out including screw piling etc. Once completed and signed off the property should be as mortgageable as any other property.

 

[Figaro]

No subsidence problems here in Lanzarote

Just the odd volcano to worry about

 

[EuroTrotters]

What age house is it ?
Traditional brick and tile ?
Subsidence is not uncommon, often as a result of mining in the area.
Depends on lot on the symptoms and if there is any indication it's continuing.

See Reply, 97 years old

Check the land maps for salt mining in Cheshire before going any further (Should be available on line from British geographic survey/mining), the subsidence could be due to brine extraction if done by mining there will be some pillars of salt left for roof support, if done by water there will be a massive void, hence the flashes ( Lakes)where there is a collapse. Regarding under pininng, plenty done around the Fylde especially St Annes and Lytham due to the ground problems so a search in that area for a contractor might be of some help for advice and price. Look at the other houses in the area for signs of subsidence and it might help to show if there is a problem in that area

I will do just that. Its near Queens Park Crewe

Perhaps you could offer to buy the survey report from the vendor.

Might be interested in looking

As a mortgage broker, I would run a mile....

A house with subsidence will be forever blighted, you will probably find that you will only be able to get insurance through the existing insurer, which may not be cheap.

If you are still serious, you need to get a full structural survey @ £1k? and then get firm quotes for any remedial work, and be prepared for possibly months of upheaval during the repairs.

Think carefully, I assume you are looking because it is cheap? there is always a reason if its cheap.

Thanks for that. I think people have had issues gaining mortgages (first time buyers I'm informed).

East Cheshire, should be away from the brine streams area, where is the property situated.
We once lived in Thurlwood, our house was old and had little in the way of foundations and used to rise and fall subject to the weather conditions. We still loved it and would move back to the area tomorrow.

As Above, Crewe near Queens Park

If you are buying and it is known to have a subsidence issue, that will be excluded from any insurance policy you can take out. So you are on your own for funding any repairs and would need to have allowed for that in your own pricing for buying the house. Realistically the current owner needs to be claiming on their policy and get it resolved before they sell.

Once a house has had subsidence, it will always have some stigma against it and that will always cause concern with some potential buyers keeping it's value lower than other unaffected property.

Structural movement can be caused by multiple reasons. Diagnosis by a building surveyor or structural engineer may not be conclusive on a single visit other than to assess that the movement appears active. Further investigation is inevitable often needing tests on drains, trial holes around foundations (or more correctly footings with a property that age) and even a period of monitoring. What may be influencing / causing poor ground conditions to be deteriorating (assuming it is a ground problem causing it), leaking pipe or drain, nearby tree, historic mining, or just change in moisture content (drought, etc) on a shrinkable clay type soil? This all takes time to understand, which you won't want to go through as a buyer.

There are two main forms of pre purchase survey available that can suit:
The structural inspection which is specific to the structure and movement, usually done by an engineer, but which would not normally tell you anything about other parts of the property condition such as roof, windows, fittings and services. It should state the extent of the movement, potential cause and likely repair with next steps.
A building survey (now often called a level 3 survey) carried out by a surveyor, which should deal with all parts of the property condition and provide some diagnosis of the extent of the movement, possible causation, and next steps for investigation and repair. The level 3 survey should deal with this, but as some have alluded to, you will find those who try to hide behind caveats and say you need someone else to tell you about the movement. Make sure whoever you engage is aware there is potential movement and you are expecting a detailed report.
The homebuyer (level 2) survey types are not adequate for this property.

The vendor and estate agent will not have access to the previous survey report and it is not theirs to pass on. They can't hide that the sale fell through for concerns on movement. It may be possible to trace the original purchaser and in turn find the previous surveyor and see if you can get a copy of the report, or a new report, at a discount. But it is rare the previous surveyor will accept any responsibility for the report that was done for a specific client being passed to another, unless the previous surveyor has been directly involved and accepted a further fee.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail.

Get the survey done, and esure you actually talk to the surveyor, as what they say on the report and what they say verbally may well be different.

Thats a thought, be there on the day.

Re the Survey, make sure it’s a full structural survey carried out by a qualified Chartered Surveyor.
You can ring the RICS ( Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors) who can give you a list of them in your area.
When you speak to your chosen Chartered Surveyor explain exactly what your concerns are and ask have they dealt with this before, if they are reasonably local they will know of the risks n a particular area and will have probably come across it on numerous occasions, especially if it is mine related.
Whilst the survey might appear expensive, if they miss something, you know they are carrying Professional indemnity insurance, a requirement of being a Chartered Surveyor.
Do not buy the survey from the vendor, privity of contract means the surveyor will only be acting for his client ie the person who instructed him, not you.

Great Advice, thank you.

Would you buy a motorhome with Blue smoke?

Yes, if the price was right.

underpinning isnt difficult to do, but its getting it approved and signed off by a building surveyor for a future sale that is important and making sure that whatever has caused the subsidence can be remedied.

i wouldnt rely on the sellers report, you need your own, backed by their guarantee.

if its something you really want and the right price AND the report also proposes a remedy within budget (they may also recommend someone to do the work) then i dont see why there should be an issue in buying at the right price, a mortgage company may be prepared to lend subject to the work being carried out, so you may be forced into a bridging loan option, again adding expense.

Cash Buyers. Happy to get the work done as we like the house.

I would be asking why the Seller hasn’t sorted it via his buildings insurance.

I might put that to the Vendor. They are selling as their Dad who lived in it has gone into care.

Most chartered surveyors would advise a structural engineers report on identified subsidence. It's a bit more specialized than most CS's can advise on.

If it is slight subsidence, long standing and not active, it wouldn't bother me. But obviously you need it investigated.
Many areas of the country have slight subsidence from old mine workings, mine included.
It was built in 1933 and previous owners had remedial work done by the NCB in 1960's and '70's I think.
No further problems or movement, things are a little wonky in places but you have to look hard and I think it gives the house character

Thats good advice

Possibly didn't know about it if it is "slight"

I can't see it. I did see some slight ceiling cracks and it does have Lincrusta on the walls.

The costs for subsidence repair are often borne by the insurers assuming its insured. However, if you buy it know the subsidence is there it is very likely that your insurer wont cover it, and say rightly, that the damage happened whilst the previous owner was there so its down to their insurer. If I were buying this I would instruct my own surveyor ( do not buy the survey that has been done, if you do and rely on it, you will have no recourse on the surveyor as he did not have a contract with you -- so a false economy) and ask him for his views. If he identifies there is an issue, then I would not buy the house unless the vendor gets it professionally repaired and provides your solicitors with the correct certification). It should not cost the vendor much as they can make an insurance claim, but will hold up the purchase. I would not have an issue buying a house that has been professionally repaired

Might look at that avenue

We thought about a property once but were put off by reports that it might need underpinning. After it sold evidently a different surveyer said it was fine and 10 years on it still seems ok. If the price is really good and it looks good I'd be tempted to get a second opinion but on the basis that it would be a bit of a gamble.

I Like a gamble !

Common cause of subsidence is drainage problems washing away material around the foundations. Sort the drainage issue and the problem goes away.

I might look at that too

Have you checked wirh the neighbours to see if they have any issues or are aware of local mining ,salt or coal.
Have a good look round the property yourself ,are any bricks cracked through, are there major cracks inside the building ,ie around windows ,doors ,stairs etc.
How old is the property, if old it may have settled and defects may be old and there is no further movement. Underpinning is expensive as its labour intensive with lots of concrete and excavation work.
But if the property is cheap enough?

Not Yet

I would also want a soils investigation. I came across a subsidence case in which the normal shallow strip foundations were used by the builder. They were no good because you would have had to dig down about 12 ft to get to a stable loadbearing level.

As above. There is a stream running alongside .

If the price is right, yes!

I Agree

My father had to sue the firm (Chartered Surveyors) that did a structural survey on a bungalow that he was buying. Looking down on it the bungalow was the shape of a church cross. The roof had not been constructed properly and at the intersection of the cross, the roof was not properly supported. Lots of mild creaking and groaning now and again caused concern which brought the problem to light.

This goes back to the 1970's so the numbers will appear small. Cost of bungalow circa £15k. Cost to put it all right again including architects fees etc about £10k two or 3 years later. Absurd Court award was based on the unknown estimated difference in value of the property with a proper roof and without a proper roof instead of the actual cost to put it right! The award was about £3k! So Dad ended up badly out of pocket and it was lucky he could afford it.

So thinking the you can rely on suing the Chartered Surveyor for compensation if they get it wrong can still leave you seriously out of pocket!

That my worry, could I be bothered with all that

Yes......But it All depends on the price of course.

Same with the house really. If the Underpinning is professionally rectified to the required level of repair, it will only affect the mortgage needy folks and not the more mature folks who may have the funds and are after a particular style of home.
Done it and moved one without any real issues to be really honest. The folks like us , were retired and knew of the issues and what was to be done.
It cost us a shade under £6k for the repairs . We sold for our asking price ....It's Like everything you buy....It's all a gamble, regardless of a survey report or not

Nothing more to add really.

Kev

Sounds cheap

You'll probably have problems when you come to sell it.

That worries me. Probably looking at 10 years in the place

That’s what we did ( outrigger was built with inadequate foundation in the gerry built extension heyday of the 70s ) , our insurance paid for the under pinning with no excess .
I watched the work being done and it was awesome to see. Huge steel “ cage “ built under the outrigger and then filled with concrete ( I think ) .
Surveyor said that the outrigger would now outlive the actual house !
Our buyers were happy with the outcome.

I need to google outrigger !

Depends on price and how much land is attached. If it’s cheap and has some land attached it may be worth buying, knocking down and building 2 others?

Im not sure I could be bothered with that

Subsidence is like cancer, the word is frightening and we fear the worst, in many cases irrationally. For most, it can and does get permanently sorted.

Yes, that is a good point

Last year there was a lovely little bungalow for sale,advertised by estate agents with subsidence,we could read the extremely long report ,and the trouble seemed to be drainage,and overgrown roots from foliage from next door(churchyard) it wouldnt have bothered me cos it would be sold when i was dead,or if it became dangerous i would have demolished and put a static there,it was cash only ,but in a lovely position.anyway our house didnt sell so im stayin put good luck

There are a lot of tree, stream and pond.

I'm with Emmit Don't ! RUN!!

Im not, Yet

It’s funny but on our house they chucked down some bricks on the stone ground and started building, that’s why it looks all wavy when you stand back a bit.

Lime mortar allows settlement without cracking. Natural movement of the building.

Just like our friends Villa in Spain.

If that were the case many houses in Wales would be in trouble .let alone many bomb damaged properties from the 2WW. GEt a full survey legally binding and the surveyors will be covered by indemnity insurance if they get it wrong. Many people are frightened by it the S word but more people are living in warm safe comfortable homes either with it or having it repaired.
If you really love it get a full structural survey and maybe them make a decision
You luck

Thats informative. Thank you

When I use to have the MOD maintenance contract one of the jobs was to underpin a commercial unit on base, turns out it was the explosive store hence why we had to do it all from outside and with a guard watching us alm the time

I dug out some foundations last summer for a mate who was doing an extension on a house that had bad subsidence, the floor in the hallway dropped about 2 inches over 5ft chap who owns said it will be ok so it’s been left.
When you walk up to the house you can see it has dropped, in the upstairs bedroom the floor joist and floorboards are about 1+ away from the wall

Is it Bomb Proof Now?

I'm gonna have fun selling my mum's flat which has historic subsidence and has sloping floors, not as bad as 2" but the washing machine often tried to creep across the floor when spinning.

Take the Transit Brackets out of the washing machine !

Lots of good advice and some not so good. It could just be that the original foundations were not deep enough given the house is nearly 100 years old. Subsidence is not an issue if identified and rectified to an acceptable standard. A good structural engineer will provide a report and a solution which should be approved and signed off by your local authority Building Control. In some cases non-invasive repairs can be carried out including screw piling etc. Once completed and signed off the property should be as mortgageable as any other property.

Screw Piling (thinking)

 

[EuroTrotters]

See Reply, 97 years old

I will do just that. Its near Queens Park Crewe

Might be interested in looking

Thanks for that. I think people have had issues gaining mortgages (first time buyers I'm informed).

As Above, Crewe near Queens Park

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail.

Thats a thought, be there on the day.

Great Advice, thank you.

Yes, if the price was right.

Cash Buyers. Happy to get the work done as we like the house.

I might put that to the Vendor. They are selling as their Dad who lived in it has gone into care.

Thats good advice

I can't see it. I did see some slight ceiling cracks and it does have Lincrusta on the walls.

Might look at that avenue

I Like a gamble !

I might look at that too

Not Yet

As above. There is a stream running alongside .

I Agree

That my worry, could I be bothered with all that

Sounds cheap

That worries me. Probably looking at 10 years in the place

I need to google outrigger !

Im not sure I could be bothered with that

Yes, that is a good point

There are a lot of tree, stream and pond.

Im not, Yet

Just like our friends Villa in Spain.

Thats informative. Thank you

Is it Bomb Proof Now?

Take the Transit Brackets out of the washing machine !

Screw Piling (thinking)

 

[Grianan]

The maps in this document may be of use as they show the vent shafts etc in Crewe (p13 onwards) …

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1048936/M232.pdf

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