Best mains charger for Lithium

[Lenny HB]

It depends on how you want to use it. If you are rarely on EHU then there's not much advantage over separate charger and inverter. But if you often use a site/aire with EHU then it has many advantages.

From another point of view, I rarely use EHU but I fitted a Multiplus, one of the reasons was if my batteries are low I can hook up on an Aire for a couple of hours for a few Euro and get a good charge into my batteries.

It also made the wiring simpler as I didn't need to fit a mains changeover, also I get a 120 amp charger instead of a 30 amp one.

 

[StillGoing]

My plan was to unplug the 240v female kettle lead socket feed to my 119 Electroblok. Swap the 3 pin plug over on the 40a Fogstar lithium battery charger to a male kettle lead plug, then connect those two together. It's a simple swap back over if I ever required it for original 240v charging again. The charger leads +&- would then be run back to the busbars, simple? .
Mike.

I assume you’ve checked to see if there is a spare 230V connector? I found a spare one hidden away so now have the EBL (with internal charger disabled) connected and the Victron charger connected. If you don’t have a spare 230V connector, I believe you can get a Y connector for a kettle lead - one in, two out - so you could use your existing EBL kettle lead to power the EBL (internal charger disabled) and the Victron charger. That way you don’t have to unplug and re plug stuff whenever you want to use EHU.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

I assume you’ve checked to see if there is a spare 230V connector? I found a spare one hidden away so now have the EBL (with internal charger disabled) connected and the Victron charger connected. If you don’t have a spare 230V connector, I believe you can get a Y connector for a kettle lead - one in, two out - so you could use your existing EBL kettle lead to power the EBL (internal charger disabled) and the Victron charger. That way you don’t have to unplug and re plug stuff whenever you want to use EHU.

Thanks, as far as I know all the 240v does in the electroblok is run the charger when on EHU. I've not seen a secondary socket,but I'll keep you're idea in mind of the dual kettle lead, but I'll give it try without it first and see if it needs amending.
Mike.

 

[DuncT]

I wouldn't even contemplate putting a 2000W load on a single 100Ah battery. Discharge rate is too high and bms will shut down.
Even if you do get a 100A load out of a 100Ah is not healthy. Max draw 0.5C as in 50A load out of a 100Ah battery.
For a 2000W load, you will need 300Ah battery to supply and sustain that load.

As for the multiplus, I can't recommend it enough, skip the mickeymouse options, and buy once: get a multiplus that will do loads of things, and very robust.
In the event of change of plans, it still has a strong re sale value and little loss if anything.

I agree and think I'll defo get a multiplus. It's just what size to go for. I've just bought the eco worthy 285ah lithium battery so that should power things for a bit.
I was looking at the inverter being able to power truma 6e if I ran out of gas but think it pulls lots of power so I'm thinking the 12/1600 will do for a little 1000w air fryer etc.

I've also not got loads of space to fit all this kit in

 

[Raul]

I had the 1600 and wasn't quite enough for 1400-1500W load.
I switched to the 2000va model and very happy. The 3000va is almost the same physical size, but, the standby consumption is more. I'm a great believer in limit by design, the 2000va at full chat will never be able to leave me without power or to abuse my batteries.
I would skip the 1600 and go one up.

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[DuncT]

Is something like this not worth entertaining?

Renogy

It's just the Victron 12/2000 is about £750

 

[AdrianChen]

Incorrect post!

 

[DuncT]

If you are happy not to have an integrated system with a single app for monitoring and control then yes it will work. I'm sure folk on here will have and endorse those. Personally I think I would go for this.... But would check Offgrids price first.

View attachment 1023651

But that Victron is just the inverter. I also want/need the charger (which the Renogy has). As I said, the Victron multiplus 2000w is near £800.

 

[Lenny HB]

Is something like this not worth entertaining?

Renogy

It's just the Victron 12/2000 is about £750

The Renogy has an automatic changeover but it doesn't have a pass through and combiner like the Victron. The Victron Multiplus is in a different league, once you have used one you won't want anything else.

The Victron is more expensive for a reason. A lot more posts about Renogy stuff going wrong than you will ever see about Victron.

Victron has a 5 year warranty with good back up.
Renogy just drop ship no UK presence as such, support can be very iffy and you have to deal with China.

 

[AdrianChen]

But that Victron is just the inverter. I also want/need the charger (which the Renogy has). As I said, the Victron multiplus 2000w is near £800.

Oh yes you want the MultiPlus - sorry hadn't any coffee at that point! Will remove it......

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[Lenny HB]

But that Victron is just the inverter. I also want/need the charger (which the Renogy has). As I said, the Victron multiplus 2000w is near £800.

Nothing like that much more expensive if you buy from the right place, our oun Funsters RogerIvy nigelivy who run Off Gridd sell them at a very good price and you get a Funster discount.

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[Lenny HB]

Forgot to mentionVVictron Multiplus's have a built in battery charger, the 2000va has an 80 amp charger and the 3000 a 120 amp charger.
Also they have under and over mains input voltage protection.
Starting to look cheap now compared to the Renogy.

FYI for anyone who doesn't know the Victron inverters the output is rated I VA (the correct way for a products) the 3000VA is rated at 2400 watts and the 2000VA is 1600 watts.
You will only get 2000 or 3000 watts on a purely resistive load.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Is something like this not worth entertaining?

Renogy

It's just the Victron 12/2000 is about £750

No Bluetooth. Quite a lump to find a space for.
Mike.

 

[DuncT]

I've just had another look and am realising that I'm not fitting any of the Multiplus inverters in that space. I don't really want to putting kit in other areas so think I'll just get the 50a Orion b2b that's small. And maybe just try/use my current built in mains charger from the EBL (set on lead acid).
The other thing is that I don't really want to have to change my cabling between this area and the leisure battery which is on the other side of the van as that will mean lifting the floor/panels.

I know the Multiplus would be best but space is v.limited.

 

[MichaelT]

I've just had another look and am realising that I'm not fitting any of the Multiplus inverters in that space. I don't really want to putting kit in other areas so think I'll just get the 50a Orion b2b that's small. And maybe just try/use my current built in mains charger from the EBL (set on lead acid).
The other thing is that I don't really want to have to change my cabling between this area and the leisure battery which is on the other side of the van as that will mean lifting the floor/panels.

I know the Multiplus would be best but space is v.limited.



View attachment 1023697

Best to fit B2B in outside locker if possible to keep down heat. If you go on EHU a lot just turn charger off and let B2B and solar do it's job and just turn charger on in an emergency that's what I've done. In nearly a year never got anywhere near needing it and saved a couple of grand

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[AdrianChen]

I've just had another look and am realising that I'm not fitting any of the Multiplus inverters in that space. I don't really want to putting kit in other areas so think I'll just get the 50a Orion b2b that's small. And maybe just try/use my current built in mains charger from the EBL (set on lead acid).
The other thing is that I don't really want to have to change my cabling between this area and the leisure battery which is on the other side of the van as that will mean lifting the floor/panels.

I know the Multiplus would be best but space is v.limited.



View attachment 1023697

That does look tight! If it is the only space I think there would be a ventilation issue since the heater is in there as well, so see how you get on with the B2B, solar and EBL charger for a while, you will probably be fine in the summer. It really depends on how much you use, and so have to put back - certainly with an inverter you'll use more!

If the B2B goes in that locker space, I would be tempted to put a small grill top and bottom to allow hot air out the top and cool air in at the bottom. The XS runs quite cool, but still worth considering.

 

[ian27]

I've just had another look and am realising that I'm not fitting any of the Multiplus inverters in that space. I don't really want to putting kit in other areas so think I'll just get the 50a Orion b2b that's small. And maybe just try/use my current built in mains charger from the EBL (set on lead acid).
The other thing is that I don't really want to have to change my cabling between this area and the leisure battery which is on the other side of the van as that will mean lifting the floor/panels.

I know the Multiplus would be best but space is v.limited.



View attachment 1023697

that sucks as a location to be honest. obviously not enough room, but the heater I would say is also a significant negative. having just planned and done my multiplus install , in my case , the cupboard with the heater in would have been an option, but it gets really warm in that cupboard, of course due to the heater. so I had to do a slightly more awkward install in a different place that is much cooler and easier to ventilate.

 

[DuncT]

This is the location of battery/EBL etc in my van.
Just a thought, could the B2B go with the leisure battery on that side? I know it would be being sent power by the EBL and not the alternator/starter battery but it would at least stop it doing any nasty overcharging? And I know the EBL will only send it say 15A but I'm limited anyway on the existing wiring.
And as said above, I dont really want to change the wiring between these locations as it'll be a pain.

 

[autorouter]

How hard would it be to run a wire from the starter battery to the leisure battery area? It looks quite close. Then you could have the B2B running directly from the starter battery/alternator to the leisure battery, bypassing the EBL.

Can you could get a mains supply into that area, maybe a 4-way or 2-way extension? You could put a mains charger there too.

 

[ian27]

maybe worth posting some photos of the floor area in and around the front seats and footwells?
likely there will be a covers over the starter battery, so you can get to that end, and some way to get under the seats to run new cables (DC or mains or both) to the leisure battery location, by removing some covers etc.

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[AdrianChen]

How hard would it be to run a wire from the starter battery to the leisure battery area? It looks quite close. Then you could have the B2B running directly from the starter battery/alternator to the leisure battery, bypassing the EBL.

Can you could get a mains supply into that area, maybe a 4-way or 2-way extension? You could put a mains charger there too.

Got to be the best solution, even if the new cable went under the van/chassis - if not putting in a battery voltage sensor, (or shunt) the b2b really needs to be as close as possible to the leisure battery to minimise voltage drop - as does a mains charger to be fair....

What size are the existing cables?

The new cable I'm planning will pick up from a convenient point under the bonnet, then re-enter the battery area through the floor using a decent quality cable gland, saves threading it through all the gubbins between the floors.

 

[DuncT]

Thanks for the advice/help.
Its only about 70cm from the starter battery to the leisure battery & I could get them under/through the foam.
Mains power is going to be more tricky as all the sockets & power in is under that rear double seat.

 

[ian27]

so starter to leisure direct new battery cable looks do-able...
for the mains: have a look at the side wall panelling under the table in front of the bench seat , you may find that something is easily removable, it was on my MH , I've used it as the route for all my new front to back cable runs, it already had a bunch of cables in it I just added to them.
If yes then that would give an route to get a new piece of mains cable from the mains distribution along the side towards the front seats and then down and sideways by similar means as for your new battery cable.
For mains cable length is irrelevant and it doesn't have to be fat either.

also just a thought: what is under your seats? given that the EBL isn't there and the leisure battery isn't either? maybe some space you can use?

 

[AdrianChen]

Thanks for the advice/help.
Its only about 70cm from the starter battery to the leisure battery & I could get them under/through the foam.
Mains power is going to be more tricky as all the sockets & power in is under that rear double seat.

OK, well that shouldn't be an issue with 16mm² cable then, given the cable may be pretty well insulated and for the short distance/amount of cable I would perhaps go with 25mm² for the small extra cost.

 

[DuncT]

Thanks guys.

I did look at the front panels on the raised section from the bench -> front seats but they seem to go behind other units. I'm sure I can get them off somehow. And I assume I then need to run 2 lengths of 3 core cable to bring mains over to the leisure battery area & then take back inverted power to the socket distribution?

But.... unless I can get the multiplus fitted somewhere, what does all this gain me over sticking the victron b2b under the bench seat? Slightly higher charging rates due to thicker wiring?

Do people put the multiplus under a seat? The 12/2000 one is like 520mm long.

Again, really appreciate all your help.

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[ian27]

it looked to me like you might have room for a multiplus near the leisure battery. maybe have to be one of the less powerful ones?

you are correct on the new cable needed: 2 runs of 3 core mains cable (must be flex, not household solid core) one for each direction as you correctly state: one way from mains in to inverter, other way from inverter to socket distribution. 2.5mm2 3 core flex for the size of AC system you are talking about.

it gains you a multiplus which is inverter , mains charger , and EHU booster. EHU booster is the unique selling point of the multiplus : when you are on EHU, its AC power is added to that of the EHU.

the b2b is for charging whilst driving.

 

[DuncT]

ian27 A multiplus might fit above the leisure battery but would be on its side (if that's ok?) and also on show as there's only a cover that goes over the top of the battery. I suppose I could have a vertical cover/board if needed.
I'll go and have another measure

 

[ian27]

ian27 A multiplus might fit above the leisure battery but would be on its side (if that's ok?) and also on show as there's only a cover that goes over the top of the battery. I suppose I could have a vertical cover/board if needed.
I'll go and have another measure

I had some advice from bimble solar prior to buying mine, they said side and back are both ok. although I ended up with right way up. you could modify the cover or make another one ... some creative woodwork time?

also think about a bigger battery if going down this route - looks like you have room.

 

[DuncT]

I've just bought a 285ah Eco worthy lithium which is a good bit bigger (dimensions) than that old lead acid jobbie. It just about fits in that bottom tray.

I've removed all the screws & tried to remove the front panels around the raised section to get 240v cabling back/forth but it's not budging and it'll end up breaking if I force it. I think the fridge/unit would need removing to get this out which is too much work/can't be bothered with.

I could just keep everything separate.
Use the existing wiring and put the b2b under the bench seat along with a new lithium mains charger. This gets my battery sorted/charged properly & I could then get an inverter with sockets on the end and put that neat the battery.

I know I'd lose the blended power on charging/use but it would fine in most situations and give me mains power for a small air-fryer, wife's hairdryer etc.

Sound reasonable?

 

[AdrianChen]

Thanks guys.

I did look at the front panels on the raised section from the bench -> front seats but they seem to go behind other units. I'm sure I can get them off somehow. And I assume I then need to run 2 lengths of 3 core cable to bring mains over to the leisure battery area & then take back inverted power to the socket distribution?

But.... unless I can get the multiplus fitted somewhere, what does all this gain me over sticking the victron b2b under the bench seat? Slightly higher charging rates due to thicker wiring?

Do people put the multiplus under a seat? The 12/2000 one is like 520mm long.

Again, really appreciate all your help.

The B2B will give you close to 50amps charging (given the correct size cables etc) whilst the engine is running.

A multiplus 2000's charger would be up to 80amp when on EHU. A 285ah battery would take most of the day to charge with a 20-30amp charger, but pretty quick with 80amp. Some cheaper 20amp chargers may struggle with that task....

A Multiplus 2000's inverter would give you AC to your sockets (if wired up to them) whilst you are not on EHU. Limited to around 1600w and dependent on the BMS output of your 285ah battery (assume it is Lithium?). The inverter is clever enough to synchronise its output with EHU if you are plugged in, and if needed because you are on a low power hookup somewhere add its 2000w to whatever the hookup can provide as ian27 described and as Lenny HB also mentioned adds the over/under voltage protection as well.

When a Multi is working at full chat it uses a fan to cool things down, this needs ideally to circulate cool air through the device, so hence better upright, and not fighting natural "hot air rises". The killer for the ones I have used has been when they are installed in a small locker, which once heated up means the fan is trying to cool with ever hotter air. We tried to put ours in a place where the hum, and fan noise wasn't going to be a disturbance, but I have no experience with the 2000w model to know if that is necessary, but I'm sure someone will comment.

If it doesn't strike you as needed then leave it out for now, but I think the combined units are good value for the additional features capacity and compactness, I doubt the way you install the battery and B2B would be a big obstacle to fitting a Multi later.

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