Batteries off grid - my findings - my fix

[eddie]

Hi PeterC
Yes it will, in that the ammeter will "count" Amps "in" and you'll use them without them being counted "out"

Not that that is likely to be a major issue, though as the next full charge either by driving or electrical connection resets the count, as such.

 

[lunarman]

Hi PeterC
Yes it will, in that the ammeter will "count" Amps "in" and you'll use them without them being counted "out"

Not that that is likely to be a major issue, though as the next full charge either by driving or electrical connection resets the count, as such.

Is the electroblok so clever that it only replaces amps it has counted "out" thus if you have something that bypasses it then the power it used would not be replaced and the batteries would discharge.
Looks a daft question even as I write it because I would think it should monitor the battery voltage, but you never know.

John

 

[peterc10]

Is the electroblok so clever that it only replaces amps it has counted "out" thus if you have something that bypasses it then the power it used would not be replaced and the batteries would discharge.
Looks a daft question even as I write it because I would think it should monitor the battery voltage, but you never know.

John

That is my worry John. I hope it judges battery condition by monitoring its voltage to decide when it is full, but I do not know for sure. But if it does just count amps in and out, when I use the inverter it will not keep the battery topped up properly. But I would have thought Schaudt would have realised that!

But Eddie's point in his last post is the next full charge, which is more likely to come from the solar or alternator, will reset it (I hope!).

I think I will look at what happens over the next few months to decide what to do next. No hurry as yet.

 

[peterc10]

Hi PeterC
Yes it will, in that the ammeter will "count" Amps "in" and you'll use them without them being counted "out"

Not that that is likely to be a major issue, though as the next full charge either by driving or electrical connection resets the count, as such.

Once again, thanks Eddie

 

[eddie]

Analogies are great things! Imagine that you have a bank account that you meticulously keep on top of. You keep a running balance on your cheque book of everything you pay in, and pay out.

Now imagine that your wife has a credit card that you know nothing about, and you can never really work out why your "balance" doesn't tally with your Bank statement. This is the equivalent to running an inverter connected directly to the battery.

Now imagine that your wife suddenly gets a pang of guilt (never likely in my case) gets a secret part time job and starts paying loads of money into your account. Again, your figures will never match your Bank statements. This is the equivalent to using a Battery 2 Battery charger.

None of this is a real problem, and only applies if you have a factory fitted battery computer, such as the Electroblok

Easily resolved with a product such as this :Broken Link Removed if you are concerned.

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[Don Quixote]

Eddievanbitz, one of the best things I bought for the MH. Sad to say sometimes I watch the Victron more than TV......

Broken Link Removed if you are concerned.

 

[eddie]

LOL My wife is the same, and moans at me for leaving things on, however, with our set up it really doesn't matter ;-)

 

[andy63]

the references to the bat to bat charger not been recorded on the ppm in the post above confuses me slightly....not hard I know
but surely that depends on how the ammeter measures the current.... I don't have a batt to batt but a very similar set up using a 120A voltage sensing relay and my ppm ammeter works off a shunt to measure the current flow in or out of the batt bank... as long as all the power out and charger wires are connected to the right side of the shunt everything is recorded on the ppm...
don't know your system but if your ammeter uses a shunt then just make sure you connect the batter to battery wires to the correct side and any current will get recorded..
ta andy

 

[peterc10]

t
don't know your system but if your ammeter uses a shunt then just make sure you connect the batter to battery wires to the correct side and any current will get recorded..
ta andy

My ammeter is part of the Electrobloc. Do not know if is uses a shunt but if it does then it is an internal one. And there is no way I can run the leads to my inverter into and out of the Electrobloc, because there is simply no facility for one, especially one with the wire thickness(es) I have.

 

[andy63]

My ammeter is part of the Electrobloc. Do not know if is uses a shunt but if it does then it is an internal one. And there is no way I can run the leads to my inverter into and out of the Electrobloc, because there is simply no facility for one, especially one with the wire thickness(es) I have.

thanks for the reply.... the shunt I fitted is a fairly meaty thing and would be easily seen very close to the batteries... every mv drop across the shunt equates to a flow of one amp.. the wires from shunt to ammeter only need to be tiny....
anyway ta again but just thought I would mention it in case it was an option for you.
ta andy

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[jonandshell]

Not getting involved anymore!!!!!

This thread has made the solution to world hunger and the end of all war sound like a piece of cake compared to charging a battery.

I will apply my knowledge of charging and motive battery systems at work rather than for the good of Funsterkind!

The doubting Thomases can eat my shorts when they have to get their genny out after one day on a rally field of sitting round a candle!!

 

[Don Quixote]

Not getting involved anymore!!!!!

This thread has made the solution to world hunger and the end of all war sound like a piece of cake compared to charging a battery.

I will apply my knowledge of charging and motive battery systems at work rather than for the good of Funsterkind!

The doubting Thomases can eat my shorts when they have to get their genny out after one day on a rally field of sitting round a candle!!

Well I thank you for the input and help. There will be many more who would / will need the help. When I fit the one I got last week I will post the finding here, if they doubt it so be it. I will also sell my little hardly used Honda 10i.......

 

[jonandshell]

Anyone seen my dummy?

 

[irnbru]

Anyone seen my dummy?

Good on you! Wouldn't really have said you were spitting it out but glad Dons post has made you see all posts are informative, people can take what they want from each.

 

[eddie]

the references to the bat to bat charger not been recorded on the ppm in the post above confuses me slightly....not hard I know
but surely that depends on how the ammeter measures the current.... I don't have a batt to batt but a very similar set up using a 120A voltage sensing relay and my ppm ammeter works off a shunt to measure the current flow in or out of the batt bank... as long as all the power out and charger wires are connected to the right side of the shunt everything is recorded on the ppm...
don't know your system but if your ammeter uses a shunt then just make sure you connect the batter to battery wires to the correct side and any current will get recorded..
ta andy

The shunt is internal in the electroblok and isn't accessible

On the Victron unit I posted the link on it is 500 amps

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[irnbru]

So no one willing to set up a paid educational class on this subject? I for one would be willing to pay to learn. Then we could save on funster discounts if Jim can bulk buy

 

[DonA4000]

This has been a good thread and I appreciate everyone's imput I have also been reading the links in the thread with regards to both A2B and B2B and also Sterling and Ctek. As I'm still quite new to motorhoming its still a learning curve and there's a lot I want to do with our van with regards to battery bank/setup, ultimately a step by step guide with photos would be good but its someone's time in doing it I do like to try be hands on wherever possible as I think its a good way to learn.

Cheers

 

[peterc10]

the wires from shunt to ammeter only need to be tiny....

Thanks Andy, but there is no way you can run the 2000W/4000W inverter I have got with tiny wires. Each pole has 4 wires the size you normally see on a starter motor.

 

[TheCaller]

thanks for the reply.... the shunt I fitted is a fairly meaty thing and would be easily seen very close to the batteries... every mv drop across the shunt equates to a flow of one amp.. the wires from shunt to ammeter only need to be tiny....
anyway ta again but just thought I would mention it in case it was an option for you.
ta andy

Thanks Andy, but there is no way you can run the 2000W/4000W inverter I have got with tiny wires. Each pole has 4 wires the size you normally see on a starter motor.

Bit of a misunderstanding here.

The shunt is inserted into the big thick wire to the battery. The inverter current passes through it quite happily - it's usually bigger than the cable it's inserted in.

The tiny wires that run from each end of the shunt to the ammeter are tiny because the current flowing through them is tiny. The shunt is a conductor with a very small but accurately known resistance. As the inverter current passes through the shunt, there is a very small voltage drop between each end of the shunt & it's this voltage drop that the ammeter is measuring. As the voltage drop rises in proportion to the current flowing, the meter is graduated in amps.

 

[TheCaller]

So no one willing to set up a paid educational class on this subject? I for one would be willing to pay to learn. Then we could save on funster discounts if Jim can bulk buy

Ooooh - paid! No one mentioned paid. I'll start writing immediately!

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[andy63]

Bit of a misunderstanding here.

The shunt is inserted into the big thick wire to the battery. The inverter current passes through it quite happily - it's usually bigger than the cable it's inserted in.

The tiny wires that run from each end of the shunt to the ammeter are tiny because the current flowing through them is tiny. The shunt is a conductor with a very small but accurately known resistance. As the inverter current passes through the shunt, there is a very small voltage drop between each end of the shunt & it's this voltage drop that the ammeter is measuring. As the voltage drop rises in proportion to the current flowing, the meter is graduated in amps.

that's what I said about the shunt I fitted, its very close to the battery, and only takes very fine wires to relay the volt drop across it to the ppm.. in my case as said its one Mv per amp.
but I don't know the electroblok and as eddy has told me its not accessible then wiring a batt to bat charger in to it to record the usage wouldn't be an option, but originally I thought it might be an option..so posted.

Thanks Andy, but there is no way you can run the 2000W/4000W inverter I have got with tiny wires. Each pole has 4 wires the size you normally see on a starter motor.

sorry but never intended to give the impression that those wires are used for that..they just relay the current
flow to the ppm.
ta andy

 

[eddie]

So no one willing to set up a paid educational class on this subject? I for one would be willing to pay to learn. Then we could save on funster discounts if Jim can bulk buy

I couldn't see how it would work to be honest. With so many people spread all around the Country, getting those that are interested together, on the same day in the same location would prove impossible I would have thought

 

[sdc77]

Why not do it online then a Skype conference call with some pre prepared images and sheets. PayPal could be used if payment required

 

[peterc10]

Or at an existing rally? Or a rally organised especially for it?

 

[eddie]

LOL I take it that one of you is volunteering to organise this then?

Then you need to establish who is going to be teaching. For every opinion on Fun there is a contradiction "My Dad said".............

Would be fun to watch though

Eddie

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[Don Quixote]

Just an update: today stripped out batteries and installed wiring ready for B2B. Will take some photo's tomorrow after refitting and fixing of B2B and batteries. Fingers crossed I get it right..............

 

[Mousy]

Just an update: today stripped out batteries and installed wiring ready for B2B. Will take some photo's tomorrow after refitting and fixing of B2B and batteries. Fingers crossed I get it right..............

Your whole body will be twisting if you get it wrong

 

[Don Quixote]

Well started at around 10am this morning and after removing seat area and TV mount and then feeding all the required cables for the 45 or less amps fitted the 3 x 110 amp batteries. Cables to each battery is very short and feed following many links on "how to"......

The B2B is going to be fitted under the passenger seat where 1 x battery was. Not sure where to fit inverter yet, but have stopped for the day leaving the B2B running ( have used a Ctek charger on the vehicle battery to bluf the B2B ) and tomorrow will check the condition/state of batteries.

 

[Touringtheworldslowly]

How,s it gone today?

I following this with an avid fascination

 

[Don Quixote]

Update: left B2B charging 3 x 110 batteries overnight using vehicle battery, which was being charged via CTEK mains charger ( save running MH in garage ). This morning according to the BMV 600S the batteries were 100% charged and no amps drawing from MH. I left them charging until about 30 minutes ago ( so full 24 hours charge ), whilst I fixed the batteries down and reconnected all the extra's to the system like TV, movies hard drive, motorhome wifi and extra LED's etc. The batteries are now resting ( no charge ) and nothing is switched on, so I can see state of charge first thing in the morning.
Tomorrow afternoon I will run MH up for 15/20 minutes to see what voltage and amps it sends into batteries after drawing 5/7 amps for about 5/6 hours.

Tomorrow I tackle the fitting of the B2B under the passenger seat, once I have decided how I'm going to fit it so I can see the led's through the "port hole" as I think once I'm happy with working correctly it's a case of "fit and forget"

More photo's tomorrow when I have cleaned the wiring up and the paint has dried in the new bits of wood I have had to cut.

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