Banning pub stops??

[Reallyretired]

Surely a motorhome is a vehicle parking, not camping. A pub carpark could reasonably be described as a car park for patrons only. What is the problem with patrons staying beyond closing time if its OK with the landlord. As with Eastbourne seafront, motorhomes Park overnight not camping.

 

[The Wino]

I do understand that the UK are not known for wine connoisseurs to say the least. I talk from my experience in Spain, where all bars and restaurants have a selection of well looked after wines. However, I did find that in Northern Ireland they also tend to have wines properly cooled and kept, so not all is lost in the UK

Around here the usual pub stuff is something called jack rabbit. It's often sold on individual bottles of 18.5 cl and is pretty poor. I think it's fair enough what pubs charge for wine I also think it's pretty fair if they charge a couple of quid for a tap water. They have overheads!

 

[meanders]

Around here the usual pub stuff is something called jack rabbit. It's often sold on individual bottles of 18.5 cl and is pretty poor. I think it's fair enough what pubs charge for wine I also think it's pretty fair if they charge a couple of quid for a tap water. They have overheads!

They can't. It's a legal requirement to serve it free.
The Mandatory Licensing Conditions Order 2010, says that licensed premises in England and Wales must provide free potable water to customers.

 

[Nanniemate]

We put our local village pub on Britstops and many vans did use it,
But in true Motorhome fashion 70% of visiting vans had a wife that was not well enough to come and have a drink!
After 3 years of FLTs he said F********* tight buggers ? and removed the stop over

That was the point of Britstops you weren't obliged to drink.
However coffee, dinner , lunch or even breakfast when available was my choice.

I used to stay at one for a week at a time the landlady made a point of reassuring me I didn't need to go on every night.

When over that way I always call in either for breakfast or lunch so although they will never make a fortune put of me I'm happy to recommend them

Word of mouth free advertising win win

 

[Lenny HB]

Sor

Anyone who gets over the limit before arranging where they are staying for the night has only themselves to blame and it's up to them to short out how to get out of the fix they've created.

Yep, I always ring the pub and ask if we can stay for the night if we have a meal, then introduce myself when we arrive.

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[GJH]

Surely a motorhome is a vehicle parking, not camping. A pub carpark could reasonably be described as a car park for patrons only. What is the problem with patrons staying beyond closing time if its OK with the landlord. As with Eastbourne seafront, motorhomes Park overnight not camping.

The legislation states "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed."
So, whilst a patron might initially use the car park for parking whilst enjoying what the pub sells, as soon as he/she starts to use the motorhome for a form of human habitation it becomes subject to the legislation and the landlord requires a site licence or exemption to stay within the law (whether it is OK with him or not).
Use of Eastbourne seafront (like other roads) is subject to different legislation. As I established some 16 years ago (where did that time go?), there is no national legislation which either specifically permits or prevents habitation of a motorhome at the roadside (unless it becomes a problem). Thus the distinction does not arise in that case.

 

[billym]

Don't want to divert the thread but how do all these barbers make any money, in uttoxeter we had got down to two old fashioned barbers , now we must have at least 6 shops with about 6 barbers in each, but most of the time they are just sitting in their own chairs with not a customer in sight.

Police raid barbers and vape shops suspected of being fronts for crime gangs

The BBC follows raids on hundreds of High Street businesses suspected of money laundering.

www.bbc.co.uk

This may explain .

 

[Steve and Denise]

Police raid barbers and vape shops suspected of being fronts for crime gangs

The BBC follows raids on hundreds of High Street businesses suspected of money laundering.

www.bbc.co.uk

This may explain .

We all know the answer but it’s not allowed to be said, I just make my objection by walking by they will never get any hard earned.
WILLINGLY

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

The legislation states "In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed."
So, whilst a patron might initially use the car park for parking whilst enjoying what the pub sells, as soon as he/she starts to use the motorhome for a form of human habitation it becomes subject to the legislation and the landlord requires a site licence or exemption to stay within the law (whether it is OK with him or not).
Use of Eastbourne seafront (like other roads) is subject to different legislation. As I established some 16 years ago (where did that time go?), there is no national legislation which either specifically permits or prevents habitation of a motorhome at the roadside (unless it becomes a problem). Thus the distinction does not arise in that case.

So, is the answer quite straightforward?! Park on the roadway instead of in the park park.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

This (link) popped up on my newsfeed.
So a TESCO car park is private and so it's a matter for TESCO. why should their private car park be different from that of a pub. And there's many more than 5 Mohos in that car park.

Travellers take over Tesco car park after being removed from park

A large group of travellers have pitched up at the Tesco superstore in West Sussex and aerial pictures show 19 caravans parked across several spaces in the car park.

www.dailymail.co.uk

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[chaser]

Has any pub been prosecuted for someone being on their carpark?

 

[GJH]

This (link) popped up on my newsfeed.
So a TESCO car park is private and so it's a matter for TESCO. why should their private car park be different from that of a pub. And there's many more than 5 Mohos in that car park.

Travellers take over Tesco car park after being removed from park

A large group of travellers have pitched up at the Tesco superstore in West Sussex and aerial pictures show 19 caravans parked across several spaces in the car park.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It shouldn't be but if you care to study the history of dealing with travellers (you could start with posts on this forum) you will find that successive governments have failed to deal with the matter properly, as they do with so many other subjects.

 

[GJH]

Has any pub been prosecuted for someone being on their carpark?

As mentioned previously, most councils either don't know that pubs are doing it or don't have the resources for enforcement.
This thread started with a story highlighting that that has changed (in Bridlington at least).

 

[hja]

As mentioned previously, most councils either don't know that pubs are doing it or don't have the resources for enforcement.
This thread started with a story highlighting that that has changed (in Bridlington at least).

I would add that many councils won’t care unless there are objections.

 

[The Wino]

I would add that many councils won’t care unless there are objections.

But the change in parking restrictions in many places like around here is because a lot are objecting. Whether they do about parking on pub car parks who knows

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[Terry]

Chances are it’s the local caravan site’s objection to the pubs They think it’s costing them business and everyone should use their site’s along with the big clubs.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Well we have just booked a pub stop for next week as it has a good restaurant, and if anyone comes to my door to tell me to move, I will put on moi best Oirish accent and accuse them of discrimination and tell them to floi awayy

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

It shouldn't be but if you care to study the history of dealing with travellers (you could start with posts on this forum) you will find that successive governments have failed to deal with the matter properly, as they do with so many other subjects.

You think I need to study it?! I wasn't referring to issues with successive governments. I was highlighting a difference in the way bigger campsites treat the majority - interfering in what they do outside those sites - and the way they exclude when it suits them.

Basically, they are too powerful compared with smaller entities and its the law change they lobbied for, which has made it so. Thats something which law should not do, imv.

If anyone were to build a case to challenge the recent changes, that news item could be used as one reason to challenge.

 

[GJH]

You think I need to study it?! I wasn't referring to issues with successive governments. I was highlighting a difference in the way bigger campsites treat the majority - interfering in what they do outside those sites - and the way they exclude when it suits them.

Basically, they are too powerful compared with smaller entities and its the law change they lobbied for, which has made it so. Thats something which law should not do, imv.

If anyone were to build a case to challenge the recent changes, that news item could be used as one reason to challenge.

Your previous post was about travellers on a Tesco car park, nothing to do with big campsites.

There has been no change to the law, just a reversion to the interpretation which I existed before 2014 when I and others took the trouble to mount a challenge, without any need for using such news items.

Anyone else is perfectly free to protest and lobby if they are really bothered and willing to put in the effort.

 

[GJH]

Chances are it’s the local caravan site’s objection to the pubs They think it’s costing them business and everyone should use their site’s along with the big clubs.

It could be but it is not always large organisations.
A few years ago a motorhoming friend moved back to Scotland and put a lot of money into making a CL next to his new home, charging a reasonable amount. All was well at first and then business dropped off. He found that the reason was that a pub had started allowing overnight camping. That obviously made it very difficult for him to recoup his investment.

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[TheMobileWanderer]

Your previous post was about travellers on a Tesco car park, nothing to do with big campsites.

Nope, it was more to do with the camping on a site which isn't exempted.
That it happened to be on a TESCO car park is of less relevance.

There has been no change to the law, just a reversion to the interpretation which I existed before 2014 when I and others took the trouble to mount a challenge, without any need for using such news items.

That reads to me as though you don't like the item I posted.
I wouldn't care what the item was or its source, if it showed something which displayed flaws in the law or the interpretation thereof which might help a successful challenge.

Anyone else is perfectly free to protest and lobby if they are really bothered and willing to put in the effort.

Of course they are. It's good to know they would have your permission.

 

[GJH]

Nope, it was more to do with the camping on a site which isn't exempted.
That it happened to be on a TESCO car park is of less relevance.

I was obviously misled by the headline of the quoted article "Travellers take over Tesco car park".

That reads to me as though you don't like the item I posted.
I wouldn't care what the item was or its source, if it showed something which displayed flaws in the law or the interpretation thereof which might help a successful challenge.

It wasn't a case of like or dislike and, in this particular case, the item was irrelevant because it concerned a traveller encampment, which is a wider issue than the provisions of the 1960 Act.
As most pub stops (including the three in Bridlington mentioned in the OP) do not have site licences or exemptions then interpretation of the legislation is not an issue as they were clearly operating illegally.

 

[TheMobileWanderer]

I was obviously misled by the headline of the quoted article "Travellers take over Tesco car park".

No worries. I think, on occasion, we all can fall 'victim' to emotive sensationalist headlines.

It wasn't a case of like or dislike and, in this particular case, the item was irrelevant because it concerned a traveller encampment, which is a wider issue than the provisions of the 1960 Act.
As most pub stops (including the three in Bridlington mentioned in the OP) do not have site licences or exemptions then interpretation of the legislation is not an issue as they were clearly operating illegally.

I think we are not disagreeing much but perhaps just looking through a different lens.

I consider that issue, as described in the article, to be one of people using unlicensed land, or land without exemption, to camp.
So, imv, that means it's similar to the issue of this thread, which affects small lands and pub car parks for example.

In that feature, with there also being many more than 5 vans - and that being more than 5 of caravans and more than 5 of motor homes, I wonder whether 5 was selected as a number to segregate between leisure motorhomers and travellers?!

FWIW, I think the 2014 'adjustment' made a bit more sense of an otherwise poor legal framework because it allowed places like Jasmine to function as it did. Now, potentially, not so much.

So, my suggestion would be, subject to a better-designed framework, which would take account of local sensibilities and environment, to permit exemptions per land area rather than per membership of any particular club. I suggest conflation of 'travelling community', 'leisure motohomers', and 'full-timers' wouldn't be useful because, if anything, I think it's a spectrum with no clearly defined boundaries.

I expect we wouldn't ever fix the matter in a forum, whether this one or any other, but if it provides food for thought for someone, it might be a good thing.

I don't agree with protectionism, which, I think, the current situation is. It favours the clubs with larger membership over those with a smaller membership, as explained by Jim (I think). If clubs provide a product so good, why would anyone want to pitch up anywhere else. I know; choice. However, that choice should be exercised independently of any membership and subject to a framework which, as mentioned, respects local sensibilities.

Perhaps my explanations haven't been good enough to convey that sooner.

tmw

 

[chaser]

If pubstops are banned I think that will be the end of our UK touring.
Love them and always have a meal.

 

[BILL 875]

Don't want to divert the thread but how do all these barbers make any money, in uttoxeter we had got down to two old fashioned barbers , now we must have at least 6 shops with about 6 barbers in each, but most of the time they are just sitting in their own chairs with not a customer in sight.

It's called moneylaundering I believe.

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[Jim]

I don't agree with protectionism, which, I think, the current situation is.

It's not protectionism. There is a grey area in the wording. Maybe one of the big clubs have had a word about this. Who knows.

I will say though. The text in the act I highlighted below is one sentence, and for me it reads that we can exempt for our own members only. Also it seems to me that was the spirit in which the exemption was granted. They were coming down hard on caravan sites but accepted that bonefide recreational clubs shouldn't be affected too much by the act.

No one was more surprised than me when 10 years ago they came out with their position that we could exempt for public use. I remember being at odds with GJH here, whereby he thought the sentence meant we could exempt for public use, I thought it meant member's only.

That they have changed their minds about this after 10 years is annoying, as many CLs have invested in businesses serving the public rather than members.

However, I certainly wouldn't fight it in court because, as much as I respect GJH's opinions in such matters, I think the wording is clear enough. Land occupied by us for recreation.

Schedule 1 – Cases Where a Caravan Site Licence is Not Required​

Paragraph 5:
Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule,
land in the occupation of an exempted organisation and used for the purposes of recreation.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Some people worry far to much about this sort of stuff,
Me I know there are a lot more people who are much more clever than I,
That will troll the internet to quote snippets about the rights and wrongs of parking.
My view:- do it until your asked not to

 

[jongood]

We don't do much in the UK. Don't find the clubs offerings suitable for motorhomes and don't agree on their stance with aires. I really wonder why there are so many more Motorhomes than caravans in UK?

We do quite like the occasional pubstop, but check out the menu and reviews first and then ring up, ask and book a table. We've had some nice and some mediocre meals and never use services ( don't understand why you would). If they stopped then would just book the ferries/tunnel to get into France quicker.

I really don't get the councils attitude with overnight parking, nominate a suitable one, App to register and pay, £10 between 1800 and 1000, no services and prosecution for illegal dumping ( they generally have cameras afterall).How difficult could it be.

 

[chaser]

We don't do much in the UK. Don't find the clubs offerings suitable for motorhomes and don't agree on their stance with aires. I really wonder why there are so many more Motorhomes than caravans in UK?

We do quite like the occasional pubstop, but check out the menu and reviews first and then ring up, ask and book a table. We've had some nice and some mediocre meals and never use services ( don't understand why you would). If they stopped then would just book the ferries/tunnel to get into France quicker.

I really don't get the councils attitude with overnight parking, nominate a suitable one, App to register and pay, £10 between 1800 and 1000, no services and prosecution for illegal dumping ( they generally have cameras afterall).How difficult could it be.

What possible harm does it cause anyone apart from the pub owner if they leave litter, I don't know why it is even discussed.
What the hell has it got to do with councils?

 

[GJH]

What possible harm does it cause anyone apart from the pub owner if they leave litter, I don't know why it is even discussed.
What the hell has it got to do with councils?

Councils are the regulatory/enforcement bodies for the legislation (as they are with trading standards, food premises hygiene &c &c).

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