Availability of General Mechanics or Engineers

[dunnah01]

Well, Ian, I've spent plenty of my professional time sorting out the cock-ups barrack room lawyers and some of those non-lawyers who think it's all a matter of common sense.
I'm not sure what part of my post you considered showed disrespect for Engineers but perhaps any such offended Engineers could write in or you could tell me.
Have a good evening.

I think the problem is that you use the generic 'engineer' term. This is mildly offensive to professional engineers who have had to study and train for a minimum of 7 years before they can start to really practice their profession. Engineers in the usually understood sense can afford a van with their name on it.

 

[Silver-Fox]

Engineers are the same. I’m fed up of interviewing “skilled engineers“ who when you push them on their ability know very little.
Ask them to sharpen a drill, erm no. Give them a Zeus book and ask them to give me a tapping size, puzzled look.. And if the micrometer or vernier isn’t digital they are clue less.
No idea of feeds and speeds on a machine tool.

Seriously, is it that bad now a days ?

 

[Silver-Fox]

I think the problem is that you use the generic 'engineer' term. This is mildly offensive to professional engineers who have had to study and train for a minimum of 7 years before they can start to really practice their profession. Engineers in the usually understood sense can afford a van with their name on it.

I did four years apprenticeship.

To me not only are they training you to use machinery etc they were also getting you into a certain mind set.

Generally when you see someone going about different jobs you can see the ones that have “done their time” ?

 

[bigtwin]

Well, Ian, I've spent plenty of my professional time sorting out the cock-ups barrack room lawyers and some of those non-lawyers who think it's all a matter of common sense.

I see that you missed the fact that, in relation to that statement, I was being facetious but am glad that you recognise the difference between a profession and those that are not ‘qualified’.

I'm not sure what part of my post you considered showed disrespect for Engineers but perhaps any such offended Engineers could write in or you could tell me.
Have a good evening.

See below:

I think the problem is that you use the generic 'engineer' term. This is mildly offensive to professional engineers who have had to study and train for a minimum of 7 years before they can start to really practice their profession. Engineers in the usually understood sense can afford a van with their name on it.

Ian

 

[Wagoneer]

I think the problem is that you use the generic 'engineer' term. This is mildly offensive to professional engineers who have had to study and train for a minimum of 7 years before they can start to really practice their profession. Engineers in the usually understood sense can afford a van with their name on it.

True, Professional Engineers normal spend 4 years at Uni and after graduation spend a minimum of 3 years attaining Chartered status. These engineers won't be hands-on mechanical repairers. They will be assisting the civil engineering/electrical/mechanical industry in research, design and construction projects.

There are still engineering apprenticeship schemes but unfortunately they seem to be sparse on the ground these days. A friend's son has an apprenticeship with McLaren F1 and is thoroughly enjoying it.

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[tonyidle]

To be fair labour costs make it cheaper to replace rather than repair.

Not in this particular case - though generally you are correct.

 

[Ingwe]

Well, to any professional engineers that I offended mildly or otherwise (unintentionally) by referring to you generically as 'Engineers', I apologise. That goes to all Engineers, whether or not they can afford a van with their name on it.

 

[Ingwe]

Deleted.

 

[Gromett]

At the time I didn't appreciate it, but when I was doing my Electrical apprenticeship I had to do lots of other subjects on my 1 year full time at trade college.
I was expecting to learn how to rewire a house, maybe do some panel wiring and some industrial motors etc. But I ended up doing.
Bench fitting and machining.
CNC
Toolmaking.
Sheet metal fabrication and machining.
Arc, gas and mig welding.

On parts of the course we had some of the mechanics who had to learn about machining, I also saw them on the electronics day release course.

I am not an educated man not having a degree, but on the practical and logical stuff in life I think that apprenticeship set me up extremely well.

I am not sure there are as many youngsters doing apprenticeships of that type anymore for a number of reasons. There are plenty in my generation who were taught in the 80s and earlier.

But it seems to me a combination of Labour's push to get 50% through university no matter the quality of the degree and the ability to get qualified staff from the EU cheaper than it is to train them means that people like me and from other trades are getting much, much rarer.

They are still around. I know at least one who has done a mechanics course in his mid 20's who can bash metal with the best of them and can wield a multimeter and soldering iron competently. But youngsters these days don't seem to want to do the technical trades and unfortunately businesses have been given an easy alternative to a proper trade training apprenticeship.

That all said, blacksmiths are rare these days, as are carters and physical typesetters. Over the next 10 years I full expect cars to go fully electric and mechanics will be a thing of the past completely.
If you look at some of the better designed EV's these days you can drop the entire drive train with a handfull of bolts a couple of cables and a couple of pipes. Swap it out and put a fresh one in. This takes a matter of hours rather than a day or two that an engine swap of today needs.

Times are a changing.

 

[Gromett]

I must be lucky then, on the estate near me you can get anything done if you go to the right door.
I have had thwaites tractor bearing housings made, county crawler sprocket sets, and special counter sunk idiot proof drill bits made.
Some of it was turned from solid metal on a mill and lathe that is a lot older than me ! Infact they are 30 years older than the operator, but brilliant bits of machinery.

You can still find them if you look around. But not as common as they used to be.

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[Gromett]

PS: I always wanted to "do" computers but my dad said to stop playing around with those toys. Get a proper trade you can fall back on then go play with them. Turns out he was right on that front.
Although I still remember him saying to me in my mid 20's. You will never make a living on computers, I don't know why you waste your time when you could make decent money in electronics or electrical engineering. A year later I set up my own company and at the end of the first year of trade I had made more money than he had in his last 10 years. Turns out we were both right.

 

[DavidG58]

I feel for the OP here, we don’t all have enough confidence to take on DIY work

Surely there is an Auto Electrician near you, our local guy will tackle anything electrical on a vehicle.

much as I am sure you are right these things are fine once you have found the right place or person, until found you are still stuck with something not working . Then just as you think you are sorted they move on or retire ?

An easy DIY job. You bemoan the lack of tradespeople, yet you are unwilling to have a go yourself. A certain irony there.

easy is an unfair word, a lot of us don’t have the skills or confidence to take on such jobs. I did when I was younger and have done more damage trying to sort a simple task then paid more than it would have cost to have it fixed properly first time

I cringe at some of the requests for help on this forum and others , clearly not having the first idea on the technical side of say a solar panel install. But some will tell them it’s easy give it a go

I dread buying one these MH’s later in its life, I am sure that most will do a job as good as a workshop, but I am equally sure some won’t ?

when it comes to much more than changing bulbs, and some of them can be a challenge (fluorescent to LED) For example, I would much prefer to give it to someone who knows what they are doing

same for resealing say a skylight, it has to be done properly to save potential future damage or at best a very messy job

some can do, quite a few of us can’t and finding the man you can trust is not as easy as some suggest, same as DIY isn’t necessarily an easy option

 

[Coolcats]

I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I seem unable to find professional what I call 'general' mechanics or engineers.

I can remember 20-30 years ago, if you went to my then VW mechanic (who'd worked on my 1968 12 Beetle for 15 years) he could not only carry out routine services and repairs but could tackle just about anything that needed doing. His training (which he explained including fitting and turning) allowed him to understand almost anything mechanical and could see how to fix things.
Over time, I became friendly with him and when you went to his home you could see all the work in progress. He only had to look at the problem and he'd figure out what the problem was and how to fix it.

Now we have a motorhome which is essentially a motor vehicle with a living space mounted on it. It is out of warranty now but even when it was under warranty, when there were problems (and there were a few) when the van was being looked at, the 'mechanic' would shake his head and say things like "nah-you need a new grundelwurp and they don't make them anymore....can't help you."

A case in point is the motorhome specialist charged with fixing my non-functioning habitation door lock. After he'd had the van for two days, I rang for a progress report. "Your actuator motor is knocked mate-I've got on order £380 plus fitting." After nearly three months waiting for the part (from Bailey) with no joy, I took the van back. I then found that the actuator motor was not only fine (there had been snapped wires where they entered the door) but that a replacement (a two wire actuator motor) was £4.98 from e*bay delivery the next day.

I still need to have the wires joined for a long term solution but have found,after enquiry, no one who takes on thIs kind of mechanical repair. My old mate is now retired and very ill so he's not available. I went through the yellow pages and rang listed: coach builders, fabricators, light engineers, mechanics, auto-electricians etc etc. Couldn't find one who was prepared to have a look at the problem and suggest solutions. I don't have enough confidence in my own skills to undertake the repair but I do know that there must be loads,of people like my old mate. They just don't seem to work anymore.

Hey ho. Rant over. As the ventilator shortage in the UK suggests, we're not the manufacturers we used to be. I fear that skill base is just disappearing.

Component change is the name of the game, fault finding in modern vehicles rely on diagnostics that displayed by a a computer. Even if you could strip something down it is unlikely or difficult to obtain the part within the unit that had gone faulty.

it is unlikely a garage ever employee an engineer, they would not pay sufficiently for someone of that skill level and the rest were mechanics Of varying skills.

if you look at what Most of the population cannot do today, even hanging a picture is too stressful for some. ( I am not being disrespectful it’s just how it is).

 

[Neil Bedwin]

PS: I always wanted to "do" computers but my dad said to stop playing around with those toys. Get a proper trade you can fall back on then go play with them. Turns out he was right on that front.
Although I still remember him saying to me in my mid 20's. You will never make a living on computers, I don't know why you waste your time when you could make decent money in electronics or electrical engineering. A year later I set up my own company and at the end of the first year of trade I had made more money than he had in his last 10 years. Turns out we were both right.

Similarly for me. I am quite into my scuba diving and the thought was to become an instructor and travel the world but it is more of a lifestyle choice than a career. So I joined IBM and 15 years later I became the Technical Specialist for Oman. Warm water on the door step, a BSAC club that I was Chairman of and a well paying, tax free salary.
I found that being able to fix things is more a gift than training. You can train people to use the books and swap parts but some people have an ability to work out how something should work and then fix what is stopping it doing that. Those are the people who will go far.....

 

[68c]

In the Army I was a Technician, my first civvie job had me as an Engineer, the second as a Fitter. What's in a name? Although much later I gained a B Eng. degree and so could be considered a true Engineer by some, I have always thought Scientist come up with a concept, Designers use that concept, Production Engineers put that concept into practice, Engineers maintain the product.

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[andyman]

Because you’re not looking for an Engineer, your looking for trained turners, fitters, mill wrights, etc.

But it seems, from what you’re saying, that even those purporting to have those skills, are lacking in the basics.

Ian

Any decent engineer needs a basic knowledge of all disciplines. Unfortunately far to many what I would class as an assemble think they are a fitter.
I served an apprenticeship and during that time learnt how to use a Miller, a lathe, vertical borer and so on.
I could still use a dividing head or a rotary table.
I've lost count over the years how many interviews I've done where I have ended up thinking did they read the job description.

 

[Duckato]

I did four years apprenticeship.

To me not only are they training you to use machinery etc they were also getting you into a certain mind set.

Generally when you see someone going about different jobs you can see the ones that have “done their time” ?

Snap I did an instrument mechanics apprenticeship at Marconi Elliots in the late 70s and I have been involved in varying engineering disciplines up until I took voluntary redundancy in 2015 and went contracting as a Project Mangler!

Theres a down side to being pretty capable of doing multiple things, you get exploited!

I have been in various car clubs over the years and more recently have been increasing involved helping people with issues in their camper vans. I learnt very quickly not to do things for free, people take the piss!

I am pretty good with vehicle electrics, it’s the type of work I enjoy doing but I now tend to limit what I do for people because unless they are shadowing you they rarely appreciate the time it can take to fault find a problem.

I have recently spent several weeks on and off pre Xmas working in the dark and cold on a customers ex Ambulance.
I charged the owner a fraction of my normal hourly rate because the Scope of the work initially looked interesting but as it progressed the owner clearly realised she had the possibility of getting a lot more done on the cheap, she started talking about what next, installing windows etc!

I decided to complete what I had originally agreed to do but no more, unfortunately that didn’t go down to well, so after taking advantage of several weeks of free storage the owner finally collected her van last month, she has yet to settle her final bill for some parts and I doubt she will now.

I was actually planning to change my business model and start doing more van related work but I have decided there’s simply not enough financial incentive to do so, instead I am winding my company up.

I won’t stop doing odd pieces of work but I won’t be invoicing and I will try not to be doing it on my own, the owners need to chip in and then they will better appreciate the cost of the time.

I am also making use of others complimentary skills

For example I have just spent a week working on the electrics of an Ex Ambulance with the owner.
He owns a graphics company and in exchange wil be doing the outside of my van. Or another, recently I installed a Diesel Heater for a local plasterer In his narrow boat whilst he did some plastering work in my hall!

Skilled people are out there, you just need to find and appreciate them.

 

[andyman]

Seriously, is it that bad now a days ?

Unfortunately it is. I hear it all to often when talking to customers. Common comment is, he isn't very good but if I sack him I cant replace him with anything better.

 

[Ingwe]

Like the idea of a kind of barter! I see you are winding up your company-my specialty. Wanna swap services? ?. I'm joking. But on a serious note, I can well understand why you're p'd off: some folks do take the p*ss and exploit goodwill. The same kidders themselves would be horrified if asked to work for free.
All the best.

 

[Ivory55]

If someone is very good then they could have time off to do their private work etc, but they won’t get the sack because they are needed. My mates idea was employ 2 ok workers as they are more likely to be there or at least one of them is. If you have one good worker and they are off you have nobody

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[ctc]

The courses for engineers,electricians & nurses all have more applicants than places.

 

[Duckato]

Like the idea of a kind of barter! I see you are winding up your company-my specialty. Wanna swap services? ?. I'm joking. But on a serious note, I can well understand why you're p'd off: some folks do take the p*ss and exploit goodwill. The same kidders themselves would be horrified if asked to work for free.
All the best.

My Accountant done the bulk, I started the process in January after deciding this IR35 stuff was having to much of an impact, and I am still waiting for a CT refund from HMRC then I can empty the bank account and close it and then the Ltd. I had hoped to complete all this before 5th April to avoid having to do a SA next financial year but unfortunately that’s seemingly not going to happen now.

The van I have most recently been working on is now parked up on my drive, I can’t see the owner being able to come and get it for quite a while, he has left me a big bag of sweets though!

 

[Duckato]

The courses for engineers,electricians & nurses all have more applicants than places.

That’s nothing new in the mid 70s I applied to Chatham Dockyard, The MOD and Marconi Elliots.
The MOD was my first choice but I fluffed the entrance exam, Marconi (later becoming Gec Avionics) was my second choice but with hindsight was the right choice, I worked there for 14 years as an electronics test engineer.

During my time there I had a lot of apprentices and latterly YTS Trainees here is one of them, and I am Sitting far right in the background in the last sequence.

 

[Clipgate]

I hate to say this however this is a story heard so many times, drove all the way to Chambrey in the Alps to assist a friend who had is Ducato MH serviced and front wheel bearings replaced.
The errors discovered were frightening, I was a motor engineer with a great deal of experience on Ducato chassis, retired I thought!
Since the rescue rebuilt his front end suspension including machining spacers to suit his hubs, as in many walks of life its not the intellectual ability of the younger generation its in my view the training. With trainers who in the most part have or do not repair merely replace. Its not even there fault, society demands an instant solution and repairing may take an hour or two! Do not get me onto the subject of motor vehicle servicing, as many are paying for an oil change and inspection! so when a vehicle is fitted with components that are not readily accessible they are not inspected, take rear brakes with shield or drums, unfortunately the new owner after the initial three year warranty is the one who finds out the challenges. Young engineers can be as good as there older counter parts, however to be so we need a change of mindset in training and aspirations of the public at large. The great satisfaction can be had by both parties.

 

[ramsthom]

That's why i find the TV Repair Shop so interesting. Real people with the skills and knowledge to repair old items.

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[bigtwin]

The courses for engineers,electricians & nurses all have more applicants than places.

I knew that Universities offered courses for Engineers and Nurses (and Lawyers, Doctors, etc.) but I never knew they did courses for Electricians.

Ian

 

[romany]

We lost proper mechanical engineers when back in the eighties the powers that be decided an apprentice ship could last 6 months with 6 months improver time as opposed to the 5 year apprenticeship I did there really are not many properly trained engineers they are all just fitters now. My latest shock was buying a battery for the wifes car from halfords in the deal there was free fitting so I let them fit it I nearly choked on my coffee when the youngster fitting it told me he was a fully qualified engineer I asked him how long he had trained answer 6 weeks , so I asked if that was just for fitting batteries , Oh no he said that cover everything mechanical.

 

[bigtwin]

Well, to any professional engineers that I offended mildly or otherwise (unintentionally) by referring to you generically as 'Engineers', I apologise. That goes to all Engineers, whether or not they can afford a van with their name on it.

You’re a gentleman, and a scholar; and I’m sure, with the right education, could even be an Engineer! ?

Ian ?

 

[Puddleduck]

There are still some hidden away on dirty little industrial estates but getting less.....

And out in the rural villages, often working in a "shed" near their home. Often they'll have a go at fixing anything and have a network of other people to call if necessary.

Martin is good at electrics and electronics and will often get a call from a friend who has an agricultural machinery repair business when some of stuff the repair business uses gets a broken wire or whatever. They are brilliant at hydraulics and the like, electrics and electronics less so. Some of the repair tools are dated to say the least but they work Martin has rewired a few of them and replaced various components. He just can't help himself .......... the lockdown is good in a way as he can work on his own stuff but he does miss the stimulus of male company.

 

[Puddleduck]

I think the problem is that you use the generic 'engineer' term. This is mildly offensive to professional engineers who have had to study and train for a minimum of 7 years before they can start to really practice their profession. Engineers in the usually understood sense can afford a van with their name on it.

Martin was an Electronics Engineer in his early career, 4 years at University, 4 years in an R&D company first as a trainee and then as a research engineer then back to University for two years to do what is now a Doctorate (same course - different qualification these days). He eventually went into management but still always wants to know how and why (and can he improve it) ........... I think many people refer to a technician or fitter or mechanic as an engineer (no offense to any / all of the skilled people who do these jobs). Perhaps the better term for an R&D engineer would be "Ingeneer" as they need to have ingenuity?

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