Are you allowed in the outside lane of a motorway?

[enark]

But there on the M25, it's a Motorway not a Dual Carriageway and can have as many lanes a necessary.

Interesting that you mentioned that a Dual Carriageway is named after the separated carriageways because I thought, as I don't think have ever seen more than 2 lanes ( except for the occasional sliproad or separately numbered road running beside it) more than 2 lanes on a Dual Carriageway in the UK.

As the saying goes, every day's a school day!

A46 - three lane dual carriageways, many section of A14, A74 etc etc….but no hard shoulder.

 

[Oldrat]

Good, keep out of it so we can overtake easier
But yes, you can if you wish -its a 7.5t limit unless a goods vehicle over 3.5t with a speed limited
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273 - rule 265


VXman confused me till someone said it was a caravan. Doh. Of course, no towing in outside lane (of 3 or more lane carraigeway)

Be careful about this as often, motorhomes that have been up-plated are licensed as Private Heavy Goods vehicles, so there is a case that they are considered to be a goods vehicle.

It’s a bit equivocal to me as there are separate definitions for Goods vehicles, but I wouldn’t like to be a test case.

 

[L' Hobo]

Speed limiters have only been on them for a few years plenty of old coaches that don't have them.

Also I think for the last couple of years speed limiters on HGV's are linked with the brakes so they can't hurtle down steep hills on overrun any more but of course it only applies to the new ones.

Speed limiters have been legal on new vehicles since, at least, the early 90's.

The Speed Limiter being disconnected was said to be the reason why the Travellers Coach was doing 87mph before it crashed in Kent killing a number (8 + the driver, I think) of Americans in 1993.

 

[L' Hobo]

Indeed.

I do think that the term ‘undertake’ is a poor, and much misused term. To my mind, an undertake is a manoeuvre whereby you move from your current lane, into a lane to your left, in order to pass the vehicle that was impeding your progress in your original lane.

Passing a vehicle to your right by maintaining your speed and course is not, IMV, an undertake.

The term undertake is a very emotive term and it’s use should be discouraged when you are simply passing a vehicle on their left.

Ian

When I took my test in about 1963, one of the examiners questions was, " when can you overtake on the left" to which I replied " On a one-way street and when the car in front is stationary and signalling to turn right".
"Correct" he said! ( I had been warned it was one of his favourite questions.)

What's a Motorway if it's not a one-way road?

 

[jongood]

Ho

How do you explain sat nags then
Extremely accurate.
When you show 67 according to the sat nag (regardless of Speedo reading) and a coach overtakes you.

Coach had the benefit of a downhill

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[jongood]

Be careful about this as often, motorhomes that have been up-plated are licensed as Private Heavy Goods vehicles, so there is a case that they are considered to be a goods vehicle.

It’s a bit equivocal to me as there are separate definitions for Goods vehicles, but I wouldn’t like to be a test case.

PHGV classification has no effect on speed limits or lane usage

 

[Nigel P]

As I understand it, overtaking on the left (in the UK) is only legal if the traffic lanes are queuing and the left lane is moving more quickly. One car lane hogging wouldn't count as a queue.

Brings into question the overhead signage when it says STAY IN LANE, usually on the approach to complex motorway junctions. If you do stay in the current lane there is a good chance of there being slower/faster vehicles to either side. Your observation about 'queue' is correct, but how do you define a queue? How slow for how long etc.

 

[Nigel P]

Be careful about this as often, motorhomes that have been up-plated are licensed as Private Heavy Goods vehicles, so there is a case that they are considered to be a goods vehicle.

It’s a bit equivocal to me as there are separate definitions for Goods vehicles, but I wouldn’t like to be a test case.

Classification and taxation are not necessarily the same. PHGV is a taxation class but the vehicle classification is motorcaravan, so the road rules apply as per motorcaravan. I have a 1200cc motorcycle whose taxation class is bicycle, can't beat governments for creating confusion.

 

[swemmy666]

Dual refers to the number of carriageways, not lanes

from wiki, so its having a barrier that makes ita dual carriage way

 

[B+W vanman]

from wiki, so its having a barrier that makes ita dual carriage way
View attachment 1019973

Yes!

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[L' Hobo]

Classification and taxation are not necessarily the same. PHGV is a taxation class but the vehicle classification is motorcaravan, so the road rules apply as per motorcaravan. I have a 1200cc motorcycle whose taxation class is bicycle, can't beat governments for creating confusion.

But over the past few years, many do not have the classification Motor Caravan just Van with windows etc. if the complaints on the forum are anything to go by?

 

[Littlewheels]

In reference to the “actual” speed l am travelling at l totally ignore the speedometer knowing the Sat-Nav to be truly accurate.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

But they have 62mph speed limiters.

The speed limit for the road is not dependent on whether or not the vehicle is capable of achieving that limit.

How about 3 lane dual carriageways? Are the rules different? I know 3.5t + are limited to 60mph, but can you still use the 3rd lane ?

If under 7.5t GVW yes

Dual carriageway is two lanes, duel =2, so where does the third lane come in ?
Or am I wrong !

The 'Dual' refers to the number of carriageways, not the number of lanes. A normal road is a single carriage away with traffic moving in both directions. I.e. 1 carriageway with two lanes. A dual carriageway simply separates the traffic flows. In principle I guess you could have ten or more lanes on each side of a dual carriageway. I think one place on the M25 near Heathrow has half a dozen lanes in each carriageway.

There is a dual carriageway on Mull which has only one lane in each direction, so technically has a 70mph limit. IIRC it is less than 1/2 mile long

 

[enark]

from wiki, so its having a barrier that makes ita dual carriage way
View attachment 1019973

Think thats a yank version, but similar in principle.

No actual barrier required, just central delineation…..but it must reasonably prevent oncoming traffic transgressing. A painted line is not sufficient such as the A38 (M) …..so a motorway does not hae to be a dual carriageways either….

Confused yet?

And then we get motorways, with a centre res, but no hard shoulder - such as under ALR….

 

[Nigel P]

This popped up on Facebook...

Discuss....

View attachment 1019755

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1982/1163/data.pdf

All you need to know about general motorway use.

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[B+W vanman]

As a newbie to MHs, I do find the general ignorance and confusion regarding the definition of road types somewhat disturbing, given the differing speed limits and other restrictions that are in force!

 

[Nigel P]

But over the past few years, many do not have the classification Motor Caravan just Van with windows etc. if the complaints on the forum are anything to go by?

Quite agree, legislation and government policy is historically very slow at keeping pace with modern society, hence these anomalies are often cropping up. Probably in some future policy DVLA will have to follow the old adage 'if it looks like a duck...' . Perhaps their current reluctance to acknowledge the obvious is due to being overwhelmed by work which leads to these inconsistencies.

 

[enark]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1982/1163/data.pdf

All you need to know about general motorway use.

In England and Wales - Scotland (and NI) manage to do it differently again..

Got to admit its surprising that we have such low road death rates, cus its pretty confusing…

 

[Nigel P]

The 'Dual' refers to the number of carriageways, not the number of lanes. A normal road is a single carriage away with traffic moving in both directions. I.e. 1 carriageway with two lanes. A dual carriageway simply separates the traffic flows. In principle I guess you could have ten or more lanes on each side of a dual carriageway. I think one place on the M25 near Heathrow has half a dozen lanes in each carriageway.

Just to add to the confusion, this is the Aston Expressway in Birmingham (A38M), motorway but not a dual carriageway!

 

[B+W vanman]

View attachment 1019979
Just to add to the confusion, this is the Aston Expressway in Birmingham (A38M), motorway but not a dual carriageway!

Ah! The good old “ Tidal Flow” trick, used by the Highway Agency or local authorities to cull unwary commuters

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[Oldrat]

Classification and taxation are not necessarily the same. PHGV is a taxation class but the vehicle classification is motorcaravan, so the road rules apply as per motorcaravan. I have a 1200cc motorcycle whose taxation class is bicycle, can't beat governments for creating confusion.

Agreed.
A bit like a VWW and a Motor caravan re speed limits!

 

[Oldrat]

View attachment 1019979
Just to add to the confusion, this is the Aston Expressway in Birmingham (A38M), motorway but not a dual carriageway!

Agreed
A dual carriageway needs a physical separation of the two directions, like a kerb or a barrier. A road marking is insufficient.

 

[bigtwin]

As a newbie to MHs, I do find the general ignorance and confusion regarding the definition of road types somewhat disturbing, given the differing speed limits and other restrictions that are in force!

Does that mean that you are familiar with the weight threshold for which speed limits change on certain road types?

Ian

 

[Brains]

Indeed.

I do think that the term ‘undertake’ is a poor, and much misused term. To my mind, an undertake is a manoeuvre whereby you move from your current lane, into a lane to your left, in order to pass the vehicle that was impeding your progress in your original lane.

Passing a vehicle to your right by maintaining your speed and course is not, IMV, an undertake.

The term undertake is a very emotive term and it’s use should be discouraged when you are simply passing a vehicle on their left.

Ian

Your opinion may be one thing, but His Majesties opinion is another.
Undertaking on a motorway when traffic is moving at normal speeds is dangerous and therefore unsurprisingly it also illegal.

In the UK, undertaking, or passing a vehicle on the left, is illegal in most situations due to safety concerns. It is only permitted in specific circumstances, such as when traffic is moving slowly in lanes, or a vehicle is turning right. Otherwise, it is considered dangerous and may result in fines or penalties.

If you are in lane One,
and slower moving vehicle is in lane two,
You have to move to lane three to overtake.
Or,
Sit behind the lane hogger in lane two if you can not get (or permitted) into lane three.

Good summary of the laws of undertaking is here

 

[PaulC70]

Good god, Im nearly always in lane three overtaking the pillocks taking up the middle lane sitting at 60-65!

Us 62mph pillocks are over taking the lorries doing 57mph in lane one!

If you come up at 80mph it may look like we are lane hogging,
but we are overtaking, just on a slower scale, where lane changes may be measured in minutes rather than seconds.

No need for defense young fella. I was referring to those taking up the middle lane as stated, do I have to explain that Im talking of the idiots literally sat there with nothing in lane 1? I shouldn't have to.
I know exactly when someones sat at 60-65 in the middle lane overtaking because I use my eyes and can see lane 1 has traffic.
And I rarely do 80, at least not for any real distance, my default these days tends to be 70-72 with only the odd spurt of 80 or above and usually to get away from morons that overtake you then pull in front and slow down. Nice to get some distance from those that drive without due care / attention.

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[B+W vanman]

Does that mean that you are familiar with the weight threshold for which speed limits change on certain road types?

Ian

I believe so, though I find the Highway Code and other regulations somewhat opaque in this area!

 

[bigtwin]

Undertaking on a motorway when traffic is moving at normal speeds is dangerous

That’s a matter of opinion.

It’s no more dangerous than vehicles in lane 3 passing those in lane 2.

Those who are inclined to hog the middle lane, by definition, have no inclination to move to the left so where does the danger arise? That can’t be said for vehicles passing them on the right.

Ian

 

[Verteuil Man]

No trailers or caravans are allowed in the outside lane of a 3 or more lane high speed dual carriageway.
Undertaking in any circumstances is illegal and not a matter of opinion.

 

[B+W vanman]

No trailers or caravans are allowed in the outside lane of a 3 or more lane high speed dual carriageway.
Undertaking in any circumstances is illegal and not a matter of opinion.

If the middle or outer lane slow and/or stop, are you, in the inner lane constrained to do so too?

 

[vzac]

I think a few of you need to do a speed awareness course. Like what I did. Came out still confused.

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