Angle Mort again

[Jonny1953]

New legislation in France from 1 January 2021 requires all vehicles over 3.5T to display warning stickers to indicate the position of blind spots to other road users.

As the rule is that the stickers need to be fitted to indicate "blind spots" on HGVs, then surely I don't need to fit any as with my mirrors correctly set up and a reversing camera, I have clear visibility and no blind spots

 

[gus-lopez]

That person riding through the red light is someone's

"Was"

Many years ago I remember trucks with signs at the back "Passing Side" on the offside and "Suicide" on the near side,

or "Overtakers", offside and "Undertakers" - nearside....................

Still here on automatic refuse trucks. Have +on the offside & a no entry minus sign on kerbside

Just remember pedestrians and cyclists (and horse riders and horse drawn vehicles) have a RIGHT to use the road.
Powered vehicles require an annual LICENCE to use the road.

Therefore those paying to use the facilities have greater benefits than those freeloading

 

[ChrisL]

New legislation in France from 1 January 2021 requires all vehicles over 3.5T to display warning stickers to indicate the position of blind spots to other road users.

As the rule is that the stickers need to be fitted to indicate "blind spots" on HGVs, then surely I don't need to fit any as with my mirrors correctly set up and a reversing camera, I have clear visibility and no blind spots

We can interpret the law however we wish, but it is not us that decides if the law has been transgressed, is it really worth the hassle of trying to argue your interpretation of the law is correct, in a foreign court, in a language that you may not be proficient in, for the sake of a few stickers?

 

[AJM2]

We can interpret the law however we wish, but it is not us that decides if the law has been transgressed, is it really worth the hassle of trying to argue your interpretation of the law is correct, in a foreign court, in a language that you may not be proficient in, for the sake of a few stickers?

Particularly if you’ve just knocked over a cyclist, no matter how stupid they were.

 

[nicholsong]

I still have not had answer to my question about the definition of 'Urban' in relation to this law.

Geoff

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[Nigel P]

I still have not had answer to my question about the definition of 'Urban' in relation to this law.

Geoff

In the French article there is no reference to urban, it would be strange to expect trucks to put signs on when visiting urban areas and take them off when leaving.
This is the English translation of the relevant article.

Article 1 After article R. 313-32 of the Highway Code, an article R. 313-32-1 is inserted as follows: “Art. R. 313-32-1.-With the exception of agricultural and forestry vehicles, on the one hand, and winter service vehicles and intervention vehicles of the services managing highways or roads with two separate carriageways as defined respectively in points 5.6.1 and 6.6 of article R. 311-1 of this code, on the other hand, vehicles whose authorized total weight exceeds 3.5 tonnes must bear, visible on the sides as well as at the rear of the vehicle, a sign showing the position of the blind spots. The model of the signage and its methods of affixing are fixed by joint order of the Minister responsible for transport and the Minister responsible for road safety. The fact, for any driver, of contravening the obligation of signaling imposed by the present article and the measures taken for its application is punished by the fine provided for the contraventions of the fourth class. "

 

[Nigel P]

In the French article there is no reference to urban, it would be strange to expect trucks to put signs on when visiting urban areas and take them off when leaving.
This is the English translation of the relevant article.

Article 1 After article R. 313-32 of the Highway Code, an article R. 313-32-1 is inserted as follows: “Art. R. 313-32-1.-With the exception of agricultural and forestry vehicles, on the one hand, and winter service vehicles and intervention vehicles of the services managing highways or roads with two separate carriageways as defined respectively in points 5.6.1 and 6.6 of article R. 311-1 of this code, on the other hand, vehicles whose authorized total weight exceeds 3.5 tonnes must bear, visible on the sides as well as at the rear of the vehicle, a sign showing the position of the blind spots. The model of the signage and its methods of affixing are fixed by joint order of the Minister responsible for transport and the Minister responsible for road safety. The fact, for any driver, of contravening the obligation of signaling imposed by the present article and the measures taken for its application is punished by the fine provided for the contraventions of the fourth class. "

Sorry, should have attached the web-link.

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000042532379

 

[tonyidle]

From the Ministry of Transport:

Pedal cyclists There were 100 pedal cyclist fatalities on the roads in 2019, very similar to the level seen since 2009. Any changes since that point are most likely a result of natural variation and cannot be attributed to underlying causes.

The number of pedal cyclists killed or seriously injured in Great Britain has increased by 8% between 2009 (4,098) to 2019 (4,433) (using the series adjusted for changes in severity reporting). This is partly explained by an increase in pedal cyclist traffic in Great Britain of 16% from 2009 to 2019 (3.0 to 3.5 billion vehicle miles). Overall pedal cyclist casualties decreased by 4% between 2018 and 2019.


How many lives or injuries would have been prevented by stickers on vehicles?

Would make more sense to prosecute (if that were possible) cyclists that place themselves alongside vehicles at lights and junctions.
.....or insist that cyclists wear hi-viz vests and helmets, stop using the roads as 'training' - going flat out regardless of conditions, putting themselves and others in danger...................just slow down !

It would make more sense to legislate for zero blind spots. Cheap video technology makes it perfectly practical to do so. It could even warn when a cyclist was in the danger zone.

 

[Barclaybasher]

It would make more sense to legislate for zero blind spots. Cheap video technology makes it perfectly practical to do so. It could even warn when a cyclist was in the danger zone.

100 cyclists killed, maybe 10 by being in blind spots. Fit cameras to millions of vehicles or persuade cyclists to take more care?

 

[tonyidle]

100 cyclists killed, maybe 10 by being in blind spots. Fit cameras to millions of vehicles or persuade cyclists to take more care?

I'm not suggesting retro-fitting cameras. But it seems to me that mandating no blind spots for trucks built after, say, 2025 would be a sensible idea. And I agree entirely about cyclists .

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[Fulham Dave]

Fitted them the day before we travelled, they will remain on the vehicle until the law is changed.

I would prefer to give other road users the warning that they are designed to give. I will abide by the laws of the country I am visiting and show respect.

In my view, if an 'ugly' sign on my vehicle saves a life then wonderful.

 

[Jaws]

I am waiting delivery of a set of stickers but have no idea where to put them ! ( answer on a postcard to Smutty Smutness, third park bench on the right )

About the only true blind spot I have is from midway along the left side door to the front of the wing.. Mirrors are excellent and I have two cameras on the back

I shall just put them on as an exercise in keeping bureaucracy happy

 

[Clarky]

I still have not had answer to my question about the definition of 'Urban' in relation to this law.

Geoff

I would refer my learned friend to post #60.

 

[georgio]

I shall put mine on magnetic strip so I can take them off at will.It is interesting to note that right hand drive vehicles are least dangerous when driving on the continent

 

[nicholsong]

I would refer my learned friend to post #60.

Robert

I did read that but even you said ' it is not that clear'.

Also that is not a definition from the particular legislation, which is important.

Geoff (Your learned friend)

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[Nigel P]

I am waiting delivery of a set of stickers but have no idea where to put them ! ( answer on a postcard to Smutty Smutness, third park bench on the right )

About the only true blind spot I have is from midway along the left side door to the front of the wing.. Mirrors are excellent and I have two cameras on the back

I shall just put them on as an exercise in keeping bureaucracy happy

The French government website information.

 

[Richard Sale]

French law These mandatory stickers will probably end up in the same odds and sods draw as the mandatory breathalysers,

Will they save one life? Can't see it myself. There is only one sticker on my van, and its smiling

Yes mine are with the breathalysers headlight stickers (not required on my moho) in the glove box

 

[Manic]

Anyone remember the old Cycling Proficiency Test? Why don’t they introduce something similar that has to be passed before cyclists are let loose on the roads?

Yes I seem to remember you couldn’t go to school on your bike if you hadn’t done the Proficiency test, that was late 60’s

 

[busby]

"Was"

Still here on automatic refuse trucks. Have +on the offside & a no entry minus sign on kerbside

Therefore those paying to use the facilities have greater benefits than those freeloading

You can't pay to use the road as either a cyclist or a horse rider so this they don't pay argument is pointless.BUSBY.

 

[nicholsong]

The French government website information.

Attachment does not open.

Geoff

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[Richard Sale]

Anything that may help save a life has got to be good. We’ve had quite a lot of cyclists killed by HGV lorries in recent years locally and from the news reports none seemed to be the fault of the cyclist. I accept I personally would not have liked to have displayed them on our old van but the law is the law, we choose to disregard it and have to suffer any consequence. Spain have introduced new laws for similar reasons & here in the UK the coming new laws will be the larger the size indicates whose responsible, unless proven otherwise, so we’re all going down similar routes it seems.

I am in favour of them but this should be the size of the vehicle weight is irrelevant. On the basis that my moho was 3500kg looks the same but is now 4000kg makes no difference to a cyclist who wants to ignore it. Therefore they are in the glovebox.

 

[Richard Sale]

I’ve been in France for 9wks and have seen lots of Motorhome’s with the stickers on, I have actually bought magnetised ones but the rear I’ve had to stick on with double sided tape. I do agree that they look ugly and cyclists will over a period of time become blind to them but why should you stick your finger up to the law and what would your opinion be if Britain made it law and foreign Motorhome’s flouted it!

Fine make them less ugly and more the point multilingual or a drawing, not everyone speaks or understands French

 

[georgio]

Mines a pvc grossed up at 3850 , much smaller than a coach built ,but then when you have the stickers on they know you are over 3500 where restrictions apply

 

[Poursay]

Mines a pvc grossed up at 3850 , much smaller than a coach built ,but then when you have the stickers on they know you are over 3500 where restrictions apply

Ditto

 

[nicholsong]

I have managed to find the French Government publication about the law and I accept that it does refer to all vehicle authorised over 3.5 tonnes, but I do notice that in describing the actual notices which must be displayed it refers to

1.Transport de Merchandises

2 Transport en commun de personnes (in the plural)

I do not know the exact legal definition of the latter but it seems to refer to buses/coaches.

I just wonder whether, from only describing those two categories, the law was never conceived as applying to camping-cars.

If it were not, maybe the Gendarmerie's advice is to leave MHs alone.

Any views, particularly from French or French Residents who know more about the law and enforcement.

Geoff

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[jongood]

You lot do realise that the closest adherents to French motoring extravagances laws are the british, We are the ones with the warning triangles, the spare bulbs, the Gilets jaunes ( the french burnt all theirs) etc. I remember distinctly being on an "aire" in Morocco with 4 british Mhs and about 15
French when Crit D'air came out and the only mhs with the Crit d'air stickers were the brits, and judging by our trip in France last week where out of hundreds of mhs I saw less than 1% with stickers on and one of them was an AT. Why don't you suck it and see first? I will take a lot of convincing that any sticker ever saved a single life and knowing the French the gendarmes have yet to decide whether they can be arsed.

 

[Nigel P]

I have managed to find the French Government publication about the law and I accept that it does refer to all vehicle authorised over 3.5 tonnes, but I do notice that in describing the actual notices which must be displayed it refers to

1.Transport de Merchandises

2 Transport en commun de personnes (in the plural)

I do not know the exact legal definition of the latter but it seems to refer to buses/coaches.

I just wonder whether, from only describing those two categories, the law was never conceived as applying to camping-cars.

If it were not, maybe the Gendarmerie's advice is to leave MHs alone.

Any views, particularly from French or French Residents who know more about the law and enforcement.

Geoff

I agree, the term passenger carrying usually refers to the commercial carriage i.e. buses and coaches; however UK legislation also describes cars etc as passenger carrying so it is easy to see the ambiguity that is created by poorly drafted legislation. Unfortunately the French legislature have a bit of history around hurriedly drafted, ill-thoughtout stuff so this bit comes as no great surprise.It raises the question as to why specify and describe two particular vehicles (freight and public transport) if the legislation is meant to apply to everything over 3500kgs.

Sorry the pdf did not open as per your earlier post, do you have a pdf reader installed (acrobat or similar)?

 

[The Wino]

I am in favour of them but this should be the size of the vehicle weight is irrelevant. On the basis that my moho was 3500kg looks the same but is now 4000kg makes no difference to a cyclist who wants to ignore it. Therefore they are in the glovebox.

Totally agree they should apply to all MH no matter what weight.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Totally agree they should apply to all MH no matter what weight.

Will this type of cyclist take any notice anyway?............

Cyclist jailed after Tower Hamlets hit-and-run death

Peter McCombie died eight days after the crash from traumatic head injuries.

www.bbc.co.uk

Cyclists have to slow down and ride according to conditions - for their own safety and the safety of others

 

[The Wino]

Will this type of cyclist take any notice anyway?............

Cyclist jailed after Tower Hamlets hit-and-run death

Peter McCombie died eight days after the crash from traumatic head injuries.

www.bbc.co.uk

Cyclists have to slow down and ride according to conditions - for their own safety and the safety of others

So how does not having stickers help?. To me it's straightforward if we go to France and drive in their country we respect their laws. The same on here complaining would soon pipe up if people from other countries came here and ignored our laws.

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