Allowing campervans to stay on my property

[simonpMhfn6W8]

I live in North Wales and have space to my home offering great views for a single campervan to stay overnight. I was looking to charge a tenner a night including electricity.

I’ve requested an exemption with Motorhomefun which I understand is important but was wondering about insurance.

Anyone have any tips about what insurance I might need and where I can get it from?

cheers.

 

[steve69]

I welcome known (and/or approved) (dog-less) Funsters to park up on my small orchard, at the end of a rough-ish track, in the very rural part of Central Portugal if they want to experience a bit of peace and quiet.

Absolutely no charge whatsoever. None.

I offer no services (except water).
I have no insurance or permission.
All visitors stay totally at their own risk, and therefore not really suitable for the very, very cautious, worrying folk who are always glass half empty types!

The thought of trying to jump through all those hoops to get official approval for paying guests makes my head hurt... and anyway... what would I do with any money collected?

The authorities don't even know I am here!

JJ

I fear you may have just opened a floodgate

 

[eddie]

We have also allowed funsters to stay on oiur drive for free, there is water and waste point to empty chemical toilet. There's also a plug socket outside that we don't mind anyone using at their own risk. Perhaps if we do it again we shouldn't even mention the electricity supply ..... So long as whoever stayed cut the lawns for us we were happy !

But there is the rub, for free.

If you let friends and family park on your drive for free, there is no issue, let them plug in to electric no issue legally, but as always its when things go tits up

Someone stays and the have plugged in and there is an electrical fire whilst they are out, that spreads to your garage and then your house. You'll be looking to your Insurance company who will pick up on the fact that it started as a result of a third party vehicle, so they will be looking at the motorhome's insurers who will have a field day once they start asking questions, commercial, pitch fee, duty of care

Your insurance will tell you to "Do one" as your operating a business from the insured property !

 

[fordsabroad]

Away from all of the legal stuff and very sound advice being offered. I for one would be very interested in staying somewhere like this. I am a solo older camper with just a small MH and travel with my dog. For safety reasons I would prefer not to wild camp. I travel to areas mainly to do photography so location is important. EHU would be a bonus but lack of it would not stop me staying at £10 PN. As far as cash or an honesty box is concerned I would have no problem with that. All I am looking for a a base and this fits the bill. It may not suit everyone but I think there would be plenty of people who would enjoy it. Making it financially worth it for you - now that's a whole different question!

 

[JJ]

I fear you may have just opened a floodgate

"just opened a floodgate"?

I think not... the "rules" put most Funsters off


JJ

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gpat]

But there is the rub, for free.

If you let friends and family park on your drive for free, there is no issue, let them plug in to electric no issue legally, but as always its when things go tits up

Someone stays and the have plugged in and there is an electrical fire whilst they are out, that spreads to your garage and then your house. You'll be looking to your Insurance company who will pick up on the fact that it started as a result of a third party vehicle, so they will be looking at the motorhome's insurers who will have a field day once they start asking questions, commercial, pitch fee, duty of care

Your insurance will tell you to "Do one" as your operating a business from the insured property !

What you say, of course is very true.

However I think that you could make such an event almost completely unlikely. If you fit a proper consumer unit/dist box that is rated correctly to the circuit in which it is connected to then there becomes no risk of a fire in the first place.

However, ss far as your house insurance goes then you make a valid point. If it becomes a business then yes all sorts of things come into play (like HSWA act for example).

It comes down to what level of risk a person is willing to take for the small benefit of £10 per night.

My personal view is that the chance of someone burning your house down as a result of plugging into your house is extremely unlikely and I could live with it. But not everyone is the same and if such things worry you, then, as you say, stay clear.

 

[eddie]

What you say, of course is very true.

However I think that you could make such an event almost completely unlikely. If you fit a proper consumer unit/dist box that is rated correctly to the circuit in which it is connected to then there becomes no risk of a fire in the first place.

However, ss far as your house insurance goes then you make a valid point. If it becomes a business then yes all sorts of things come into play (like HSWA act for example).

It comes down to what level of risk a person is willing to take for the small benefit of £10 per night.

My personal view is that the chance of someone burning your house down as a result of plugging into your house is extremely unlikely and I could live with it. But not everyone is the same and if such things worry you, then, as you say, stay clear.

It doesn‘t have to be plugged in.

A gas fire, a BBQ, anything, could cause you a loss which you need to claim on your insurance for. The first question will be “What was it doing there? What do you do then, lie? commit an insurance fraud as your house has burnt down?

Turn it round, a tile blown from your roof embeds in the side of a £200k motorcaravan, try saying ‘it’s only a tenner a night, so not interested in any liability”

 

[steve69]

"just opened a floodgate"?

I think not... the "rules" put most Funsters off


JJ

What I meant was there just might be a queue of motorhomes outside your entrance very soon waiting to take advantage of your generous offer of a pitch for nothing at a lovely location.

 

[JJ]

What I meant was there just might be a queue of motorhomes outside your entrance very soon waiting to take advantage of your generous offer of a pitch for nothing at a lovely location.

Yes Mr Steve... I understood what you meant sir, but with my "Little Piece Of Paradise" (aka QMJ) being so remote, and me insisting that prospective visitors pass their (non medical) tests then visitor numbers are kept fairly low!

Had one (regular) visitor so far this year.


JJ

 

[MisterB]

But there is the rub, for free.

If you let friends and family park on your drive for free, there is no issue, let them plug in to electric no issue legally, but as always its when things go tits up

Someone stays and the have plugged in and there is an electrical fire whilst they are out, that spreads to your garage and then your house. You'll be looking to your Insurance company who will pick up on the fact that it started as a result of a third party vehicle, so they will be looking at the motorhome's insurers who will have a field day once they start asking questions, commercial, pitch fee, duty of care

Your insurance will tell you to "Do one" as your operating a business from the insured property !

Can you confirm it's only if we charge, in your opinion, which we have never done? If we weren't charging for example, in your opinion, , is it any different than anyone staying in our home that plugs something in ? We have recently let out our house for payment via AirBnB and have written confirmation from our home insurers (buildings and contents) that so long as we don't exceed 90 nights in total, then our insurance is valid at no extra cost. Perhaps the OP might benefit from asking his own insurers?

Mr V Bitz - sorry if this came across as picky, it wasn't and I was genuinely asking for your opinion. You run your own campsite and business so you have probably been through this sort of thing before !!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[MisterB]

Yes Mr Steve... I understood what you meant sir, but with my "Little Piece Of Paradise" (aka QMJ) being so remote, and me insisting that prospective visitors pass their (non medical) tests then visitor numbers are kept fairly low!

Had one (regular) visitor so far this year.


JJ

This why we need a Drive/Garden swap section of the forum LOL. First dibs on Portugal ...

 

[eddie]

Can you confirm it's only if we charge, in your opinion, which we have never done? If we weren't charging for example, in your opinion, , is it any different than anyone staying in our home that plugs something in ? We have recently let out our house for payment via AirBnB and have written confirmation from our home insurers (buildings and contents) that so long as we don't exceed 90 nights in total, then our insurance is valid at no extra cost. Perhaps the OP might benefit from asking his own insurers?

I am no expert in this, and am, to be honest one of the most Cavalier of people in my Private life.

If told not "Don't go down to the docks in Georgetown, I'll tend to go to see why not, after all, how do the people know that "I'm not the Psychopath Some of the best nights we had are in pubs in "dodgy" areas. We'll prepare meals driving along the motorway, used to let our kids sleep in a bed when travelling overnight, we even sleep in Motorway Aires shock horror. I eat too much I drink too much and once I am drinking if in the company of smokers, inevitably the evening will end up with me smoking a cigarette

I think that the difference is I know the rules and understand the risks

Offering a free space to friends and family, the second you make it a commercial venture however small there are risks, mostly theoretical, but imagine a Motorhome being damaged whilst it is in your care and control, which is what it is and denying any responsibility, which simply doesn't wash if your charging a fee, however small

Mr V Bitz - sorry if this came across as picky, it wasn't and I was genuinely asking for your opinion. You run your own campsite and business so you have probably been through this sort of thing before !!

Didn't think that it was

 

[Googlebot]

Personal damage claims in a civil court are different ball games.

If I trip up on an uneven slab for instance and break my ankle, I can issue a civil claim for compensation due to injury caused by your alleged negligence in failing to maintain your property properly.

Or rather a no win, no fee vulture can.

That’s why you need the adequate insurance and club backing, to discourage vexatious crap like that. Most people on their own haven’t got the resources to defend against it.

It is one of the main reasons people aren’t more altruistic, there is always a bone head who will be tempted to issue a claim for money because they have been a tool and not looked where they are going.

For this reason, if I was charging at all, I would do it properly. As soon as you take the money, you owe them a duty of care.

 

[Jim]

What people forget is this. It would not be the nice forgiving owner of the motorhome, who was grateful you let him park, who comes gunning for you. It's his insurance company, with ruthless loss adjusters who do it for a living.

 

[chaser]

My final post on this, don't do it.
One pitch is never going to be a payer, if you are doing it free for friends, ok, but getting bogged down with insurers and tax men and the like, for what will be at best, 100 nights, ok £1000 sounds ok, but take your electric and other costs off, you have very little left for the hassle of a bad let.
If you could find room for five you might just make it pay and worthwhile, even then it will be borderline.
At the end of the day you will do as you like but it wants a lot of thinking about.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gpat]

It doesn‘t have to be plugged in.

A gas fire, a BBQ, anything, could cause you a loss which you need to claim on your insurance for. The first question will be “What was it doing there? What do you do then, lie? commit an insurance fraud as your house has burnt down?

Turn it round, a tile blown from your roof embeds in the side of a £200k motorcaravan, try saying ‘it’s only a tenner a night, so not interested in any liability”

Accepting your point but clarifying

" a tile blown from your roof embeds in the side of a £200k motorcaravan"

Wouldn't matter if you were charging or not in this scenario. However I believe the claimant would have to demonstrate negligence

 

[eddie]

Accepting your point but clarifying

" a tile blown from your roof embeds in the side of a £200k motorcaravan"

Wouldn't matter if you were charging or not in this scenario. However I believe the claimant would have to demonstrate negligence

I disagree, as Jim said once the loss adjuster gets his teeth in there is no way that an Insurance company would settle a third party liability claim if it transpired that the damaged vehicle was paying to be parked there.

Its not the insurance company wriggling, if you insure stating that there is no business use from the address the premium is based on no business use

If you then operate a business from that address and don't advise your insurance company you've invalidated your insurance

As for negligence, once your paying to stay on a pitch the operators have a duty of care

 

[gus-lopez]

As for negligence, once your paying to stay on a pitch the operators have a duty of care

so why don't they when parking?

But almost no-one puts a bit of folding in an honesty box. Seriously, you might as well expect someone to be carrying a goat as much as old-school cash. Almost everyone has a phone, and many of them will have Google Pay/Paypal etc. installed. Even those few holdouts who do have cash are unlikely to have the correct change.

I'm the complete opposite.I refuse to pay with anything other than cash ,I'm not making international calls to pay dome Itinerant car parking.If they can't provide cash facilities they aren't getting paid.

Another issue is waste disposal unless you have an understanding council collection service,

Commercial site I use near Brighton has a strict "no rubbish whatsoever left take it home with you ",
along with no electric, no dump of any type just toilets & water

 

[Vipar]

If you want only club member. Then £15 for the first night for lifetime membership thereafter £10 pn or whatever you wish to charge. Don’t let anyone pi55 on your fire try it you can alway stop if it doesn’t work out. Good luck whatever you decide

 

[cmcardle75]

I'm the complete opposite.I refuse to pay with anything other than cash ,I'm not making international calls to pay dome Itinerant car parking.If they can't provide cash facilities they aren't getting paid.

Yes, but there's no reason to only take cash. There are some who will only pay cash and some who will only pay card/contactless. Accept both and you'll get a lot more money!

It's not that I refuse to pay cash, just that I only get forced to use it about twice a year, which means I don't carry any. It is such a major hassle. I will have to drive 10 miles to the nearest cash machine, find parking and then find a shop to get change. This will cost me half an hour of time and much cost in travelling. I will only pay cash if there is simply no alternative due to the extreme inconvenience. More normally I would find another supplier of the goods/services required. It is only if they have a monopoly on something that I desperately need would I bother.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Folkranger]

Could you do what the Germans do (Kostenloss). Offer a free space, no obligation but also offer something they could buy in return. We've had free kostenloss sites where we've bought a meal, some wine, a jar of locally made jam........

 

[gpat]

I disagree, as Jim said once the loss adjuster gets his teeth in there is no way that an Insurance company would settle a third party liability claim if it transpired that the damaged vehicle was paying to be parked there.

Its not the insurance company wriggling, if you insure stating that there is no business use from the address the premium is based on no business use

If you then operate a business from that address and don't advise your insurance company you've invalidated your insurance

As for negligence, once your paying to stay on a pitch the operators have a duty of care

I agree. Sadly you are right.

What I was saying though is that if your roof tile blows off and hits another persons vehicle you are liable. Understand you point though that if it's your house your insurance would pay up.

 

[Bucket]

If allowing the public to use electricity will you have to have it signed off by an electrician and checked every year ? If so would the cost be worth it.

As long as your domestic supply is sound and has a current electrical safety cert that isn't a concern. Your built in safety devices will protect against misuse or failure

 

[Bucket]

Why bother going to all the trouble of fitting EHU for one vehicle..
Most now have solar and leisure battery to last a couple of days

Doesn't need to be a campsite type EHU, a normal external socket will do. You can ensure it has an appropriate mcb to deliver enough power without cutting off

 

[Bucket]

The charge on some sites for electric might be£5 a night but I bet no-one gets near that use on average and it's only the average that matters. I wouldn't bother providing ehu though for one space why not try without and see how it books.

Or you could opt for the German stelplatz solution of a coin meter?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gpat]

As long as your domestic supply is sound and has a current electrical safety cert that isn't a concern. Your built in safety devices will protect against misuse or failure

Agreed. But what built in safety devices are you referring to

Doesn't need to be a campsite type EHU, a normal external socket will do. You can ensure it has an appropriate mcb to deliver enough power without cutting off

Whist I am the last to look for problems, there are a couple of issues with this. I would agree if your outside external socket has a dedicated mcb at the house fuse box. If its like ours and is is just an extension of the ring/circuit on the sockets then its a problem and a separate DB/feed is much more safe

 

[Folkranger]

I would guess that your potential market aren't all bothered about electricity but would pay £10 a night anyway. Save a lot of complication.

 

[MisterB]

Loss adjustors .... In my previous life, I often suggested to homeowners to consider getting a loss adjustor in after they'd had serious fires. Trust me, they will squeeze every penny out of whoever is paying the bill, whether that be insurance companies or someone else liable ...

 

[Bucket]

Agreed. But what built in safety devices are you referring to

Whist I am the last to look for problems, there are a couple of issues with this. I would agree if your outside external socket has a dedicated mcb at the house fuse box. If its like ours and is is just an extension of the ring/circuit on the sockets then its a problem and a separate DB/feed is much more safe

A modern consumer unit has a host of built in safety measures; as well as ensuring a good earth connection the two obvious ones are RCD's and MCB's,. Keeping it simple they will trip and cut off the supply if anything like a short circuit is detected, importantly they operate very fast so even if a person was in trouble they should prevent it being too bad.
Of course a dedicated mcb is nice but when I was a practicing sparkie the appropriate building regs allowed external sockets on a ring circuit as long as the ring itself met the rules.
I would always try and run an external socket from a garage unit if there was one of course.

 

[gpat]

A modern consumer unit has a host of built in safety measures; as well as ensuring a good earth connection the two obvious ones are RCD's and MCB's,. Keeping it simple they will trip and cut off the supply if anything like a short circuit is detected, importantly they operate very fast so even if a person was in trouble they should prevent it being too bad.
Of course a dedicated mcb is nice but when I was a practicing sparkie the appropriate building regs allowed external sockets on a ring circuit as long as the ring itself met the rules.
I would always try and run an external socket from a garage unit if there was one of course.

I'm stil, not convinced. My house has an external socket. It's on a spur on which there are another 4 double sockets. If a van is hooked up it could potentially use about 4kw.

That's 16a. The consumer unit is fused at 16a so that would be happy so long as I didnt use a socket. But the cable at the end of the spur would not. Its would overheat. There would be no protection as I see it......but then I'm not an electrician.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Tombola]

you might as well expect someone to be carrying a goat as much as old-school cash.

he is in north wales

sorry couldnt resist. I spend lots of time there and jumped on a few "club" CLs and the like, member and not member shhhhhhh. forget the leccy , offer the safe park up youll be fine. Like anytihng in business cost vs reward.