90 days abroad

[62272]

Elaine has an Irish passport, and I do all the driving. So, as long as I behave myself so that we travel together, we can still do 180 days . Not being smug, 'cos I DO have to behave myself ...

Steve

Hi Steve

How does that work for you? Is the spouse of an EU passport holder allow to accompany them on a UK passport and exceed the 90 days? Or do you need a visa for yourself?

Chas

 

[Badknee]

Sorry i cant assist with Spain. The one I am considering is in France through the French consulate office. I don’t know if it would be transferrable to other Schengen areas in the EU. Is there anything on the Spanish consulate site?

There’s mention of a “none lucrative” visa but not till the end of ‘22. We’re thinking of sticking to the rule and possibly visiting northern Spain in the summer where it’s a bit cooler for our next 90 days.

 

[BreweryDave]

You could also consider applying for a tourist visa, 96 euros (I think), then you can stay out as long as the visa allows

You’re gonna have to explain that one!

There’s no such thing as tourist visa, only for work, study, residency etc.

 

[Dutch 68]

Hi Steve

How does that work for you? Is the spouse of an EU passport holder allow to accompany them on a UK passport and exceed the 90 days? Or do you need a visa for yourself?

Chas

Yip the spouse of a EU passport holder can stay as long as they like, the 180/90 rule is not applicable

 

[deleted79651]

Hi Steve

How does that work for you? Is the spouse of an EU passport holder allow to accompany them on a UK passport and exceed the 90 days? Or do you need a visa for yourself?

Chas

Hi Chas,
As long as the non EU Passport holder travels with the EU Passport holder, the 90 day limit is waived, no visa needed. Better stil, the legislation caters for 'split trips', so If I travel first for a few days, that's knocked off my 90 days, and then I 'piggyback' on Elaine's Freedom of Movement for the balance of the 180 days, or any combination. The EU Regs provide about 5 examples IIRC of the combination of 'non EU' days & 'EU days'. Basically, I can travel on my own for up to 90 days but can then stay for a further 90 days provided that Elaine is with me. In practice, Elaine could stay for longer than 180 days without visa, but she would then be regarded as resident for tax purposes in the EU, and the EU is getting very hot on this. I have to send the French Bank confirmation of my UK Tax status to stay clear of the French taxation system.

Steve

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[Purple2]

You can apply for a non lucrative visa but the whole process needs to be done from the UK with at least two visits to Spanish consulate in London. All docs to be done in ‘official’ Spanish. A DBS check and private medical cover is required. About 32000e in a Spanish account for a couple or proof of same amount from an unearned income in Spain. A fixed address in Spain through rental or owned. Once process is approved then 3 months to enter Spain and register on the padron. First year at least 183 days spent in the country for tax purposes. Only at this point can you take Spanish driving test which is a challenge for most that will be getting this visa as they won’t have looked at UK Highway Code for 40-50 years let alone a more complicated Spanish one. This whole process is not to be taken lightly and has existed long before Brexit and nothing to do with ‘us’ being punished.

 

[62272]

Hi Steve

How does that work for you? Is the spouse of an EU passport holder allow to accompany them on a UK passport and exceed the 90 days? Or do you need a visa for yourself?

Chas

Brits married to EU citizens and the 90/180 rule

Research by a reader suggest that Brits (and other non-EU nationals) with EU spouses are not bound by the 90/180 day rule when travelling in the Schengen

www.spanishpropertyinsight.com

Looks like you were right Steve. That could save me a lot of bother!!

 

[Lynne Roy]

You could also consider applying for a tourist visa, 96 euros (I think), then you can stay out as long as the visa allows

This is what we are hoping to do thanks

 

[deleted79651]

You’re gonna have to explain that one!

There’s no such thing as tourist visa, only for work, study, residency etc.

Not sure that's right, albeit the nomenclature 'tourist visa' may not be accurate. There is a Third Country Visitor Visa [title?] that allows staysof up to 6 months [in practice probably 180 days] but, the Brexit extension period and the ravages of COVID led to a suspension of Applications. The Visa does come with some restrictions that would make it unsuitable for the 'Wandering Motorhomer, No Planning or Pre Booking' traveller, such as providing Proof of Address at which you'll be staying, proof of income or job offers etc. If/when EU gets round to looking at the extended visa rules and operations, they may have to build in some flexibility if it is to meet the Wandering [Wintering?] Motorhomer needs, otherwise it is possibly not worth the admin and cost.

Have to wait to see how things pan out.

Steve

 

[Badknee]

You can apply for a non lucrative visa but the whole process needs to be done from the UK with at least two visits to Spanish consulate in London. All docs to be done in ‘official’ Spanish. A DBS check and private medical cover is required. About 32000e in a Spanish account for a couple or proof of same amount from an unearned income in Spain. A fixed address in Spain through rental or owned. Once process is approved then 3 months to enter Spain and register on the padron. First year at least 183 days spent in the country for tax purposes. Only at this point can you take Spanish driving test which is a challenge for most that will be getting this visa as they won’t have looked at UK Highway Code for 40-50 years let alone a more complicated Spanish one. This whole process is not to be taken lightly and has existed long before Brexit and nothing to do with ‘us’ being punished.

That’s not the one I’m thinking of.

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[acropolis22]

So if your 180 days are up whilst you are in Spain and then it starts again, can you do 90 days back to back , as long as you have spent 90 days in the previous 180 out of the Schengen x

No.

 

[62272]

Hi Chas,
As long as the non EU Passport holder travels with the EU Passport holder, the 90 day limit is waived, no visa needed. Better stil, the legislation caters for 'split trips', so If I travel first for a few days, that's knocked off my 90 days, and then I 'piggyback' on Elaine's Freedom of Movement for the balance of the 180 days, or any combination. The EU Regs provide about 5 examples IIRC of the combination of 'non EU' days & 'EU days'. Basically, I can travel on my own for up to 90 days but can then stay for a further 90 days provided that Elaine is with me. In practice, Elaine could stay for longer than 180 days without visa, but she would then be regarded as resident for tax purposes in the EU, and the EU is getting very hot on this. I have to send the French Bank confirmation of my UK Tax status to stay clear of the French taxation system.

Steve

Sorry Steve, I should have refreshed my page inbetween researching google to see you had replied. The information you provided is really helpfull and will save us lots of hassle

 

[Tanya_and_Mick]

Rolling simply means it is a continuous period, each day that passes you count back the last 180 days and see if you were out for more than 90

Spot on - a good explanation in a few lines

 

[deleted79651]

Brits married to EU citizens and the 90/180 rule

Research by a reader suggest that Brits (and other non-EU nationals) with EU spouses are not bound by the 90/180 day rule when travelling in the Schengen

www.spanishpropertyinsight.com

Looks like you were right Steve. That could save me a lot of bother!!

From memory, the permissions are under Sec 2.2.2 [think ducks!] at the foot of a page [70 or 76?] and they list the examples of Chinese partners of EU citizens et al {but no mention of Jeremy from Weybridge!]. For us, it's too lat for this year with our favoured Municipal sites in France closing by 15/9 at latest. But, for 2022 onwards [and perhaps Winter in Spain for 2021/2 if COVID figures fall], the EU is our oyster!

Steve

 

[sussexlad]

I am still unsure about the regulations on the time lapse for going abroad. Friends of ours are going to France for the month of September and they normally winter in Spain. Can they still go to Spain 90 days from the return at the end of September in early January as someone else has told them it would be doubtful under current restrictions.

Going back to the original question, the answer is "yes" according to the Schengen Calculator.

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[62272]

You’re gonna have to explain that one!

There’s no such thing as tourist visa, only for work, study, residency etc.

You are right the tourist visa are for countries who are not signed up to the Schengen 90/180 day rule (which UK is). However there are visas which extend the 90 day rule for specific purposes which can include travel. Looking at the consular website it does look quite a challenge to apply, and its not guaranteed you will get it

 

[62272]

Going back to the original question, the answer is "yes" according to the Schengen Calculator.

View attachment 528820

So long as they are cognisant of the impact this will have on any travel in the EU they wish to do for the period beyond the 31st March 2022.

 

[Purple2]

That’s not the one I’m thinking of.

There are only four types of visa. Work, student, non lucrative and golden( for rich people) From 2022 the Etias scheme effectively waives the need for a maximum of 90days in 180 for any of those visas. This will only happen if Schengen can get all of its entry and exit ports to become digital which is why at the moment 3rd country nationals, that includes us, are having their passports stamped.

 

[Purple2]

This is also worth bearing in mind. Apparently sufficient credit on a credit card is acceptable and it’s ‘per person’
It’s probably not going to be robustly enforced but worth a belt and braces approach. Similar arrangement for Spain.

 

[62272]

From memory, the permissions are under Sec 2.2.2 [think ducks!] at the foot of a page [70 or 76?] and they list the examples of Chinese partners of EU citizens et al {but no mention of Jeremy from Weybridge!]. For us, it's too lat for this year with our favoured Municipal sites in France closing by 15/9 at latest. But, for 2022 onwards [and perhaps Winter in Spain for 2021/2 if COVID figures fall], the EU is our oyster!

Steve

Travel documents for non-EU family members - Your Europe

Travel rights – visa requirements for relatives (family members) of EU nationals travelling to or in Europe

europa.eu

Found the above link. If you are a EU national, but NOT a resident in the EU, and are travelling with a non-EU family member (e.g. spouse), then they will need a visa (which is free and should be issued within 15 days) to accompany the EU ’mobile’ member.

PS this does not affect the 90/180 day rule which the UK are already signed up to. This would be relevant if you planned to exceed your 90 day period.

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[Purple2]

You are right the tourist visa are for countries who are not signed up to the Schengen 90/180 day rule (which UK is). However there are visas which extend the 90 day rule for specific purposes which can include travel. Looking at the consular website it does look quite a challenge to apply, and its not guaranteed you will get it

That I suspect is for humanitarian purposes and things like charity walks or cycle rides where the person would take more than 90 days to visit all Schengen countries for example

 

[deleted79651]

Travel documents for non-EU family members - Your Europe

Travel rights – visa requirements for relatives (family members) of EU nationals travelling to or in Europe

europa.eu

Found the above link. If you are a EU national, but NOT a resident in the EU, and are travelling with a non-EU family member (e.g. spouse), then they will need a visa (which is free and should be issued within 15 days) to accompany the EU ’mobile’ member.

PS this does not affect the 90/180 day rule which the UK are already signed up to. This would be relevant if you planned to exceed your 90 day period.

Hi Chas,

Here's the Link to the 'joint travel with an EU citizen. that permits travel for longer than 90 days in 180. My earlier 'IIRC' was wrong, so I clearly didn't! The examples are at Section 2.1.2 and commence at the foot of Page 17, with the body of examples on Page 18. 'All the right numbers, but not necessarily in the right order, Mr Preview' as Eric Morecambe didn't quite say ...

Non EU Citizen travel with EU Spouse Foot of Page 17 2.1.2 et seq

Steve

 

[Jo662]

You can apply for a non lucrative visa but the whole process needs to be done from the UK with at least two visits to Spanish consulate in London. All docs to be done in ‘official’ Spanish. A DBS check and private medical cover is required. About 32000e in a Spanish account for a couple or proof of same amount from an unearned income in Spain. A fixed address in Spain through rental or owned. Once process is approved then 3 months to enter Spain and register on the padron. First year at least 183 days spent in the country for tax purposes. Only at this point can you take Spanish driving test which is a challenge for most that will be getting this visa as they won’t have looked at UK Highway Code for 40-50 years let alone a more complicated Spanish one. This whole process is not to be taken lightly and has existed long before Brexit and nothing to do with ‘us’ being punished.

Is that for a visa,sounds more like applying for residency?

 

[Spriddler]

Hi Chas,

Here's the Link to the 'joint travel with an EU citizen. that permits travel for longer than 90 days in 180. My earlier 'IIRC' was wrong, so I clearly didn't! The examples are at Section 2.1.2 and commence at the foot of Page 17, with the body of examples on Page 18. 'All the right numbers, but not necessarily in the right order, Mr Preview' as Eric Morecambe didn't quite say ...

Non EU Citizen travel with EU Spouse Foot of Page 17 2.1.2 et seq

Steve

Seems a good enough reason to marry again, although perhaps an unnecessary risk as one might discover that 90 days was more than enough.

 

[deleted79651]

Seems a good enough reason to marry again, although perhaps an unnecessary risk as one might discover that 90 days was more than enough.

90 days more than enough to travel, to marry in haste, to repent at leisure? Or all three ...? We've been together for almost 22 years and married for over 15 years; the Irish passport is just a delightful bonus! I would be lost without Elaine, and it just isn't the same with a SatNav ....

Steve

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[PJGWiltshire]

Hi Steve

How does that work for you? Is the spouse of an EU passport holder allow to accompany them on a UK passport and exceed the 90 days? Or do you need a visa for yourself?

Chas

Hers is a posting by another member around UK citizen travelling with EU member citizen

If your spouse has an EU passport and you have a UK passport this might interest you.

I contacted the website below, which claims it's an "official website of the European Union", asking the question regarding UK passport holders status if they have an EU spouse as I had heard you could legally over stay if you travelled together.

Official website of the European Union | European Union​

European Union - Official website of the European Union
<Broken link removed> europa.eu

This is the reply I received:

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

A citizen of the UK does not, in principle, require a visa to travel for a short stay of no more than 90 days within any 180-day period in the Schengen area.

The fact that you reside with your Irish wife the UK is, on its own, not sufficient to waive the limits of the 90/180-days rule if you intend to travel on your own to a Schengen Member State.

However, if you are travelling with your wife to a Schengen country, or joining her in a Schengen country, the 90/180 days limitation does not apply. Accordingly, any stays in the Schengen area together with her will not be taken into account when you travel again on your own. Please be aware, however, that in this case you might need to have documentation to show when you were travelling with her and when you were not.

For further information, we recommend that you contact the authorities of the country you would like to travel to: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/embassies/index_en.htm

You can also find additional information here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/brexit-travel-documents/index_en.htm

If you wish to remain in a given country for more than 3 months, both you and your wife may need to register your residence: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

Please note that as Ireland is not part of the Schengen area and because your wife is an Irish citizen, this may not apply if you wish to travel together to Ireland.

 

[Purple2]

Is that for a visa,sounds more like applying for residency?

It is a visa but effectively the residencia that existed before 31/12/20 with the notable exceptions. There is no such thing as a visa for the relatively very low number of people from the UK that want to spend more than 90 days in the Schengen area. We are no longer in a common travel area and the reality is that the vast majority of those want to stay longer than 90 are after the sun and cheaper living costs. I suspect if the pound was only 80 cents instead of 1.15-20 then the interest would be a lot less. An awful lot of those retirees that had ‘settled’ from the 90s onwards would have done it when it was 1.50 to the pound. I’m as frustrated by this whole thing as well but an irritated pragmatist would best describe me. The big cart before the horse is the driving test although the Spanish Gov at the moment are considering ‘swapping’ the UK licence. The problem any nation in the EU has is complying with the Schengen rules. When we land in Spain/France etc the arrangements for travel are with Schengen area not the host country.

 

[spitfire]

Yip the spouse of a EU passport holder can stay as long as they like, the 180/90 rule is not applicable

As long as they travel together

 

[deleted79651]

Hers is a posting by another member around UK citizen travelling with EU member citizen

If your spouse has an EU passport and you have a UK passport this might interest you.

I contacted the website below, which claims it's an "official website of the European Union", asking the question regarding UK passport holders status if they have an EU spouse as I had heard you could legally over stay if you travelled together.

Official website of the European Union | European Union​

European Union - Official website of the European Union
<Broken link removed> europa.eu

This is the reply I received:

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

A citizen of the UK does not, in principle, require a visa to travel for a short stay of no more than 90 days within any 180-day period in the Schengen area.

The fact that you reside with your Irish wife the UK is, on its own, not sufficient to waive the limits of the 90/180-days rule if you intend to travel on your own to a Schengen Member State.

However, if you are travelling with your wife to a Schengen country, or joining her in a Schengen country, the 90/180 days limitation does not apply. Accordingly, any stays in the Schengen area together with her will not be taken into account when you travel again on your own. Please be aware, however, that in this case you might need to have documentation to show when you were travelling with her and when you were not.

For further information, we recommend that you contact the authorities of the country you would like to travel to: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/embassies/index_en.htm

You can also find additional information here: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/brexit-travel-documents/index_en.htm

If you wish to remain in a given country for more than 3 months, both you and your wife may need to register your residence: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

Please note that as Ireland is not part of the Schengen area and because your wife is an Irish citizen, this may not apply if you wish to travel together to Ireland.

But that reply refers only to travel in Ireland in the final paragraph. The 4th paragraph is the key, confirming that the 90/180 rule does not apply for visits to Schengen countries and is consistent with the ANNEX to the COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION establishing a common "Practical Handbook for Border Guards" to be used by Member States' competent authorities when carrying out the border control of persons and
replacing Commission Recommendation C(2006) 5186 of 6 November 2006 [Issued 8th October 2019].

I always travel with our Marriage Certificate and our respective Birth Certificates [had to produce them when we purchased our hovel in France 11 years ago and they've stayed in the File ever since ...], so proving ID and marriage status when Irish Passport is shown will not pose a difficulty.

Steve

 

[PJGWiltshire]

But that reply refers only to travel in Ireland in the final paragraph. The 4th paragraph is the key, confirming that the 90/180 rule does not apply for visits to Schengen countries and is consistent with the ANNEX to the COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION establishing a common "Practical Handbook for Border Guards" to be used by Member States' competent authorities when carrying out the border control of persons and
replacing Commission Recommendation C(2006) 5186 of 6 November 2006 [Issued 8th October 2019].

I always travel with our Marriage Certificate and our respective Birth Certificates [had to produce them when we purchased our hovel in France 11 years ago and they've stayed in the File ever since ...], so proving ID and marriage status when Irish Passport is shown will not pose a difficulty.

Steve

Yes I just copied it completely. There are specific rules for Ireland as I understand that this is because they are not in the Schengen area. From my understanding travelling with someone who has Irish passport in the Scehengan area means that the UK passport holder as long as they are with their partner can stay with them for a period over 90 days where this occurs.

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