90 day rule, schengen rules, visas. Jees

[Stoosal]

……is 596 back……?

 

[Molly A]

Just been to Alicante Airport, worked my way through Gran Alicante, Santa Pola, La Marina, Torrevieja, and several of the beaches before getting to the Mar Menor, there are a lot of British MoHos wild camping. I’ve worked my way back on the country roads to San Miguel de la Salinas. Even more MoHos. So there are a lot here in this small area. Yeah the majority are retirees, they seem to be here for a while, I bet the Camp sites are full in Benidorm and all around the Costa Blanca.

These MoHos are obviously wintering here, but are limited to 90 days, it would not harm the country or their rules to allow them to stay 365 days if they wished, or come and go at will they are helping the economy, I was chatting to a guy in the Supermarket, a Brit Moho owner, here for Christmas and can’t stay for the New Year, like me he would have liked to stay longer, but the rules stop him. We have to leave 14th December.. my 90 rolling is up.

All I was saying is it’s obvious that the MoHo’ers here are retirees, living the dream, I bet their family come out for a holiday to visit them. At 66+ the majority are not looking to work! They are just holidaying. Give them a break, they are spending their hard earned in the country they are visiting…

How short sighted the rule makers are, if I go back 14th December and I have to wait until 12 March, I might have fancied a 2 week break in Tenerife, or a Long weekend in Paris or even a Christmas bash in Prague. But I can’t come and spend my money. Madness…and it’s nothing to do with Brexit, it’s the EU rules imposed, Brexit does not affect the EU on this point, the rules makers are being pedantic.

Strange affair.

It is everything to do with Brexit. Our government was determined to stop freedom of movement as part of the deal and so it did. To imagine otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. And to make if more infuriating, our expert negotiators failed to ask for the same right for UK citizens that they granted for EU visitors, the right to stay for 180 days. We chose to leave the club, and the rules that we had previously signed off as a member if that club now apply to us, as a third party nationals.

 

[PaulW2]

They are largely shooting themselves in the foot. Its costing a lot of economies, particularly the Portuguese and Spanish tourism economies a huge amount in lost revenues. Now they are seeing the perils of EU membership because they are not self-governing nations and are tied to a 1 rule must fit all approach and are stuck with a bad rule even though it doesnt suit them.
I anticipate the EU will make concessions for Brits eventually because they will be under a lot of pressure from these countries, if another country left the EU it could very well lead to the collapse of the bloc

I can't really see it.

Brits only make up a percentage of the tourist market. And most - maybe 95% - of the British portion of the tourist market is made up of people who come on holiday for a few weeks, rent cars, stay in hotels, play golf, go on guided tours, go to restaurants and so on.

The remaining tiny percentage, who want to stay for more than 90 days, are people who are either in motorhomes or who own property and are not, on a per diem basis, big tourism spenders at all.

So it's a vanishingly small thing. Maybe Brits are 30% of someone's tourism market. Maybe the Brits who want to stay longer make up 1% or 2% of all visitors. But even then their daily spend rate reduces this to an even smaller fraction of this small percentage.

It worries those Brits, sure, because it's inconvenient. But no-one else really even notices it. It's nothing, a rounding error.

 

[Molly A]

Well to be honest I want flexibility, but about 120 days in Spain, at the Villa (a 60 & 2x30 days)
28 days in the Canary Islands at Christmas time or mid winter.
In the MoHo 21 days in France, 14 days in Germany, 14 days in Portugal, 5 days Belgium and Holland.
But it’s more about say I was up to my 90 days and I fancied another 2 weeks, I can’t do it, say I was up to my 180 days and thought hey, let’s go to Portugal for a week in the MoHo, I can’t do it. It’s more about flexibility and free choice..or as we did a lot, driving home, landed on a cracking site at Salbris and had to leave after 3 days when we could have stayed 7 days but could not do it. Or now I have to be back by the 14th of December, my 90 days is up, but I’d like to stay a few days more as friends are arriving… can’t do it. And yet it’s pointless forcing people to leave to comply with government rules that have no bearing on the countries needs!

Yeah, I remember when we could all do that.....

 

[EuroTrotters]

And I think you should name the correct person before making such a statement.

My German friend lives with a Moroccan lady. They are not married but they tell her family in lotto o they are.

She is very westernised and in a way understands westerners judgement of certain groups

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[Molly A]

Any Brit leaving Spain is a net loss, it is well known throughout Spain that Brits spend twice as much as any other European, they eat out more, the fill more bars, spend many hours buying tat in out door markets, take more trips, the locals and Europeans cook and eat at home, buy cheap beer, do very little during the week. Barter for much cheaper rates. So if I sell my house and say it’s bought by a Dutch, they are going to spend 1/2 as much year in year out than I do.
Then if I do sell I’m going to move my money back into Sterling out of the EU, so the EU loses my sterling investment.

But they won't give a monkey's as they will be potentially getting someone who is happy to pay their taxes.....

 

[Molly A]

There's always been a 90 day Spanish rule, and still is for EU citizens. It's just very rarely policed.

My understanding from spending a lot of time in Greece is that if you stay over 90 days you need to register with the police, and evidence that you have sufficient funds to not be a drain on the state. My partner and I did this before Brexit, got a registration card which then covered us under the withdrawal agreement , and allowed my partner to then apply for a 5 year residency card. I now have an Irish passport and should register again for extended stays.

 

[gus-lopez]

Now I'm seriously confused! Has the 90 day rule always been in place then?

Yes. nicholsong explained it succinctly in #84

Prior to Brexit l am pretty sure it was 6months allowed in Spain.

Not legally it wasn't. Spain has always had the rule that after 90 consecutive days you were required to register for residency.
If you didn't they could not throw you,or any EU citizen out & they still can't , but you would be fined for the offence of "failing to register as a resident" =300€.

 

[PaulW2]

Yes. nicholsong explained it succinctly in #84

Not legally it wasn't. Spain has always had the rule that after 90 consecutive days you were required to register for residency.
If you didn't they could not throw you,or any EU citizen out & they still can't , but you would be fined for the offence of "failing to register as a resident" =300€.

But even then as an EU citizen you could simply restore order by crossing borders, not? From Spain into France to break the sequence of days, then a few months later dip into Portugal, then...

 

[EuroTrotters]

I can't really see it.

Brits only make up a percentage of the tourist market. And most - maybe 95% - of the British portion of the tourist market is made up of people who come on holiday for a few weeks, rent cars, stay in hotels, play golf, go on guided tours, go to restaurants and so on.

The remaining tiny percentage, who want to stay for more than 90 days, are people who are either in motorhomes or who own property and are not, on a per diem basis, big tourism spenders at all.

So it's a vanishingly small thing. Maybe Brits are 30% of someone's tourism market. Maybe the Brits who want to stay longer make up 1% or 2% of all visitors. But even then their daily spend rate reduces this to an even smaller fraction of this small percentage.

It worries those Brits, sure, because it's inconvenient. But no-one else really even notices it. It's nothing, a rounding error.

Is that so !

Well here is My Spending on one card for October.

Thats without my Tax Bill for the Quarter or our Non Resident tax.

Add about another £1,000 for my other card and money that my Daughter Spent when She visited us. If we didn't have a house in Spain she wouldn't have come to Spain or Europe.

Probably add quite a lot more as I used AMEX for most of the fuel. Add in things like using Toll Roads, Purchasing Wines at Bodegas, Brittany Ferries and Stena Line Costs are not including the above. So putting money into quite a lot of Commerce and Economies.

I am guessing that probably pushes £6,000 in total

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[gus-lopez]

But even then as an EU citizen you could simply restore order by crossing borders, not? From Spain into France to break the sequence of days, then a few months later dip into Portugal, then...

Yes that is correct. 89 days leave for a day & even return to same country. Just needed to keep under the 183 days cumulatively & you become a tax resident & also the 6 month rule for the vehicle that then has to leave or be sealed.
Now it is 90 days & out you go ,not just the country but the whole Schengen area.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Yes that is correct. 89 days leave for a day & even return to same country. Just needed to keep under the 183 days cumulatively & you become a tax resident & also the 6 month rule for the vehicle that then has to leave or be sealed.
Now it is 90 days & out you go ,not just the country but the whole Schengen area.

Yes, thats what My Dutch, German, Portuguese and now French Neighbours do. Well, they are supposed to but don't

 

[PaulW2]

Is that so !

Well here is My Spending on one card for October.

Thats without my Tax Bill for the Quarter or our Non Resident tax.

Add about another £1,000 for my other card and money that my Daughter Spent when She visited us. If we didn't have a house in Spain she wouldn't have come to Spain or Europe.View attachment 837943

Spain apparently had more than 100 million international visitors last year, and tourism's value is reportedly somewhere in the vicinity of € 155 bn. So people turn up for a week, maybe 2, maybe a weekend break, and spend on average maybe € 1,500 (by simple division).

The UK contributed somewhere in the region of 20% of the Spanish total.

The vast majority of visitors come for a holiday as conventionally understood - city breaks to maybe 1 or 2 weeks. Let's say 95% do this. So 5% of people, including Brits, may wish to spend a bit longer.

In this case Brits who want to hang around for longer therefore make up maybe 1% of the market - 5% of their 20.

Brits that want to hang around for longer than 6 months? That would be smaller still. But let's keep it at 1% for the sake of the argument.

If most tourists are around for say 10 days on average then they spend maybe € 150 a day. That's the standard per diem rate then.

By extrapolation in 30 tourist days they would spend € 4,500 each. A couple € 9,000, three people € 13,500 and so on.

If that is what you spend every single month you are there, you would seem to be at about the tourist average. If less, then you are below the average.

But as a small (maybe 1%), self-disenfranchised (Brexit) group one would clearly have very little leverage to change things.

 

[DBK]

My pretty flamingo and I were having an argument, she was losing the argument, so she stuck her fingers in her ears and said “La La La La La La La La La La La La” very loud for about 2 mins.
I lost the argument I couldn’t stop laughing..

You can't turn the thread off. Just ignore it and it will die naturally in a few days. Threads about the CMC last for months!

 

[Bramidan]

Strange really, prior to Brexit I don’t remember seeing threads such as this, although I wasn’t on Motorhomefun I was on other sites.
There wasn’t myriad threads and posts on getting an EU passport for your dog (pet) either.
Neither were there threads about people trying to get Irish passports.

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[LesW]

our expert negotiators

There was negotiating?!!

 

[Molly A]

There was negotiating?!!

Allegedly, but it was done by our non elected functionary, David Frost.....

 

[nicholsong]

My understanding from spending a lot of time in Greece is that if you stay over 90 days you need to register with the police, and evidence that you have sufficient funds to not be a drain on the state. My partner and I did this before Brexit, got a registration card which then covered us under the withdrawal agreement , and allowed my partner to then apply for a 5 year residency card. I now have an Irish passport and should register again for extended stays.

I sailed around Greece for 30 years for several months a year and never thought about it, but some of that was before their membership of EU.

No authorities mentioned it either.

 

[Simon G]

Probably been said before (but I don't have the time or inclination to read the full thread ) but the issue is really that the Schengen area is treated as a single country for this purpose. Would be nice if it could be 90 days per country... Having visited many countries en route to NZ there are similar rules everywhere. Weirdest was Tonga: Pacific Island kingdom, never been colonised, Schengen passport-holders get 60-day visitor visa, UK passports only get 30 days!

 

[Bessy765]

There is a strong undertaking from so French MP’s to get the rules relaxed, it is being debated in December. But Macron is against it

France’s senators have approved a bill amendment giving British second-home owners in France an automatic long-stay visa right without any formalities.

The idea has now been added as a new article in France's immigration bill and so will form part of the text to be sent to the Assemblée nationale députés (like British MPs) for debate in December after the senators (French upper house of parliament) conclude their discussions on Tuesday November 14.

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[gus-lopez]

Neither were there threads about people trying to get Irish passports.

There are now in excess of 10% more Irish passport holders than there were in 2016.

 

[nicholsong]

There are now in excess of 10% more Irish passport holders than there were in 2016.

Wait until all those Americans claiming to be 'Irish' catch on, then there could be millions more.

 

[PaulW2]

Wait until all those Americans claiming to be 'Irish' catch on, then there could be millions more.

Ah yes, Texit

 

[Molly A]

I sailed around Greece for 30 years for several months a year and never thought about it, but some of that was before their membership of EU.

No authorities mentioned it either.

They don't. We have been doing the same for 9 years. They appear entirely uninterested if you are clearly a tourist or are moving around a lot. If you are resident in one place I suppose it is easier to come on their radar.
Mind you, a friend of ours has been living there permanently for well over a decade, so far nobody seems bothered...

 

[Molly A]

There are now in excess of 10% more Irish passport holders than there were in 2016.

Well you would be bonkers not to...

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