3500 KG - B License and why bother.

[Dizzyorwhat]

Stupid question coming here.....

Apologies if this is a very silly question but here goes. I know about the 3.5 tonne limit on a normal B driving license. Because of this we have only been looking at 3500 KG MHs and campervans. My question is this, if I bought one of these vehicles and then loaded it up with my collection of lead footballs which resulted in the overall weight of the vehicle exceeding 3.5 tonnes, what does this mean ? what are the risks ? I expect that if you were stopped by the police that they could take you aside and using a weighbridge weigh your vehicle, and if it exceeded 3.5 tonnes you would be in trouble ? (fines etc.).

Is this how it works ?
(I really don't have a collection of lead footballs...)

Do people need to weigh their vehicles fully loaded with deckchairs, bikes etc. to make sure that they don't weigh more than 3,5 tonnes before taking them on the road ?

I warned you... Sorry if I'm being stupid here, but this is something that I don't fully understand. When you buy a 3.5 tonne vehicle, does this mean that its under 3.5 when you drive it out of the showroom ? cos, obviously you can load it lightly or heavily depending on how many lead footballs you have.

Thanks for your patience on this one.

Regards
Ronan

 

[barsteward]

I think this is too broad an answer without taking any of the nuances into account.

A 3500kg Mk8 Transit coachbuilt motorhome carrying 3800kg is nor more unsafe than the one parked next to it up plated to 4100kg carrying the same load.

Nothing is done to either of them in terms of tyres, rims, suspension or chassis... just a simple paper exercise... a sales toy.
Both sit on the same 235 tyres & 16 inch rims, both have the same motorhome specific chassis and both have the same suspension.

It's unlawful yes, but not unsafe.

A 3.5t Cathargo super lightweight on 15" rims is only upgradable to 3.65 without major upgrades to suspension, rims, and tyres. The rear axel will then still remain at 2.0 t unless you add air suspension. Admittedly I don't know about other brands but given most are striving to attain max payload with minimum factory weight I would suspect Cathargo is not the only one by a long chalk.

 

[barsteward]

We must be in the same gang.
I keep a tight check on my Burstner and it is tight.


Also.

My Ducato. Designed and built and vin plated by Fiat states that it is safe van up to 3650Kg.
Is this ever taken into account when they decide it's overweight at 3500kg?

I have to admit its almost impossible to run mine loaded for a 3 month trip. My best calculation is that I'm running at 50 kilo over weight on my front axle but I weigh with a full tank of fuel and half tank of water which is why my front axel is over weight. On the plus side it doesn't take many miles to burn off the fuel and I think there is a little leeway applied if stopped.

 

[cyberyacht]

A 3.5t Cathargo super lightweight on 15" rims is only upgradable to 3.65 without major upgrades to suspension, rims, and tyres. The rear axel will then still remain at 2.0 t unless you add air suspension. Admittedly I don't know about other brands but given most are striving to attain max payload with minimum factory weight I would suspect Cathargo is not the only one by a long chalk.

Aren't all Compactlines on 16" rims?. Mine certainly is and the max upgrade possible is only to 3700, notwithstanding the max Fiat axle loads = 3850.

 

[Old Gibber]

I think this is too broad an answer without taking any of the nuances into account.

A 3500kg Mk8 Transit coachbuilt motorhome carrying 3800kg is nor more unsafe than the one parked next to it up plated to 4100kg carrying the same load.

Nothing is done to either of them in terms of tyres, rims, suspension or chassis... just a simple paper exercise... a sales toy.
Both sit on the same 235 tyres & 16 inch rims, both have the same motorhome specific chassis and both have the same suspension.

It's unlawful yes, but not unsafe.

The Ford Mk 8 chassis is designed to carry a maximum of 4200kg without changing the tyres or any mods to the suspension. (Obviously individual axle weights also need to be considered here.)

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[barsteward]

Aren't all Compactlines on 16" rims?. Mine certainly is and the max upgrade possible is only to 3700, notwithstanding the max Fiat axle loads = 3850.

No, 15" rims max upgrade 3.65

 

[barsteward]

The Ford Mk 8 chassis is designed to carry a maximum of 4200kg without changing the tyres or any mods to the suspension. (Obviously individual axle weights also need to be considered here.)

I think that the pay load will be almost negligible more than likely less than a lightweight chassis end result, if you have a restricted licence you will still more than likely be overweight.

 

[Brains]

I hope you claimed expenses? 5 miles is allowed & if over that, & you are under, they are liable for all costs.

You made me look it up !

I'm not sure exactly where, northbound on the M1 they told us to 'follow me, but it was before the M6 turn off (as that was where we were going) and the weighbridge was in Leicester.

That is a distance of at least 25 miles, plus another 20+ miles to get back.
The entire process delayed us by at least a couple of hours.

No, we did not get offered fuel cost, or even an apology.

They may have suspected we dumped a certain amount of weight en-route.
2 slabs of beer must be at least 25kg, plus all the water, plus other things they dumped.

 

[Trevor Wbm]

Apart from the UK all countries go by gross weight for speed limits.
France for example under 3500 kg same as cars. Over 3500 kg 80 kph on normal roads, 70 kph limit in urban areas you are restricted to 50. Dual carriage ways & motorways with 110 limit its 100, 120 & 130 limits its 110.

As an aside, the Sygic SatNav I've been using on an Android tablet displays the speed limit for your vehicle, once it's been configured, rather than for cars, which is very handy. I imagine other systems designed for commercial vehicles do too.

 

[peterc10]

I have a friend who was a traffic police officer. He did not know this rule even existed. Also I wonder if speed camera systems check this element of the V5 document.

The unladen weight is not shown on the V5. Never seen it even mentioned in motorhome brochures. It is not the same as the MIRO.

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[Jonno1103]

The Ford Mk 8 chassis is designed to carry a maximum of 4200kg without changing the tyres or any mods to the suspension. (Obviously individual axle weights also need to be considered here.)

Off the top of my head that's the standard van chassis? SV tech will only up plate the wide track moho specific chassis to 4100kg and reduce towing to 500kg max.
The standard L4 chassis with FWD can go upto 4400kg without modification.

 

[Jonno1103]

The unladen weight is not shown on the V5. Never seen it even mentioned in motorhome brochures. It is not the same as the MIRO.

On Brit vans you do get a separate Mass in Service as each van is weighed prior to delivery with each having a different weight as per factory specification & factory fitted options although this still includes 75kg for the driver and 90% fuel. Easy enough though to deduct 138kg.

I have a sticker on the dashboard showing the unladen weight - 2730kg. Mass in Service- 2868kg. Miro/MTPLM (after adding 2nd leisure battery, 2x6kg bottles, awning & roof aircon) - 2983kg.

 

[nicholsong]

On Brit vans you do get a separate Mass in Service as each van is weighed prior to delivery with each having a different weight as per factory specification & factory fitted options although this still includes 75kg for the driver and 90% fuel. Easy enough though to deduct 138kg.

I have a sticker on the dashboard showing the unladen weight - 2730kg. Mass in Service- 2868kg. Miro/MTPLM (after adding 2nd leisure battery, 2x6kg bottles, awning & roof aircon) - 2983kg.

I am interested to know why this happens.

What legislation requires this and does it only apply to UK-manufactured MH's or does it also apply to all MHs sold in UK?

 

[Bessy765]

If you are on 15” Rims you can only get 2240 over the rear axle if you have 225/70/r15 tyres and semi air.

 

[Jonno1103]

I am interested to know why this happens.

What legislation requires this and does it only apply to UK-manufactured MH's or does it also apply to all MHs sold in UK?

It changed 10 years ago when the EU brought in whole vehicle and individual type approval for motor caravans. Only the UK decided to add MiS. It's G: on your V5c.
You'll get the revenue weight, max permissible mass & mass in service, the latter is blank on motorhomes in Europe, they don't weigh them per se. dunno why as all cars are.
If I remember right only the Rollerteam/Mobilvetta A Class plant in Tuscany has a weighbridge but again I don't know if they use it.
Auto Sleeper, Bailey, Swift & Auto Trail all have one.
Auto trail weigh the Benimar Benivan & Roller Team Toleno they build prior to export and UK sale.

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[Jonno1103]

If you are on 15” Rims you can only get 2240 over the rear axle if you have 225/70/r15 tyres and semi air.

That's assuming it's a Stellantis base vehicle?

 

[Lenny HB]

Aren't all Compactlines on 16" rims?. Mine certainly is and the max upgrade possible is only to 3700, notwithstanding the max Fiat axle loads = 3850.

They are now (use to be able to have 15") you can only order them with 16" rims and they insult you buy charging you £305 for the privilege. Plate under the bonnet gives gross as 3650, although Carthago down plate to 3500.

That is one of the reasons if you order the maxi 4250 chassis with auto box it's lighter than the light chassis.

 

[Bessy765]

My tyre ref was to our 2012 Elddis Aspire 255. When we ordered it new at the NEC it was offered with a (Free) paper uprate to 3650kg up from 3500kg. Given it the rate it only would have 216 kg payload so virtually overweight when loaded with 2 adults full of fuel and water with a minimum amount of gear. As try as we could when packing for a three month trip to Europe we were overweight before we started. I subsequently updated it to 3850 kg. To get 2240 kg over the rear axle it required 225/70/r15up from 215 and semi air. You could get the 3850 with just the semi air but needed the bigger tyres to get 2240 over the rear axle. Our 2019 Burstner Iexo on the Fiat heavy chassis bought new came plated at 4000kg. But by the time we had bolted on all the bits and pieces it came out at 4050 kg with just us two and strictly reduced must haves.so up plated it to 4500 kg. This was only a paper exercise. I think it now comes plated at 4250 or 4500

 

[Jonno1103]

Needs to be said though, in the 3500kg segment payloads are becoming worse not better especially as they're now being touted as 4 berth with foldable Aguti travel seats.
Anyone who parts company with £70k of their precious savings or pension pot for the new Swift Voyager is in for a real shock.

Lovely van but ultimately useless.

Even without a cost option wind out sun canopy awning the payload for the twin single 7.8m 584 model is only 371kg.
Add said awning and 75kg for one passenger and your down to 264kg.
The Island bed 594 is even worse. In standard form payload is 352Kg, play the awning & single passenger game with this one and you're down to 245kg.

To add insult to injury both also come with a cavernous garage.

When oh when are prospective buyers going to realise that payload is everything... 1st, 2nd & 3rd on their list. Once they begin to turn their backs on these vans the coachbuilders will then be forced into a rethink.

 

[Lenny HB]

Even without a cost option wind out sun canopy awning the payload for the twin single 7.8m 584 model is only 371kg.

Anyone who thinks they can run a 7.8m van at 3.5t is in cloud cuckoo land. Anything above 6.5m is pushing it.
We have just ordered a 6.7m van on a 4250kg chassis which gives us a reasonable payload of 1300 kg, far more sensible.