150 amps usable power

[headlight]

Can you not mount the battery somewhere else?

Not really Lenny that's the problem.
The lead acids I have are "low profile" 175mm high so they fit.
The batteries are where they are as its the only place suitable and were put there by Vanbitz when they moved one so they could fit the B2B.

 

[PhilandMena]

I agree with Lenny and others about AGM's having had a couple of fairly big banks go crook very quickly (i.e. 18months 6*180AH Mastervolt), however I think with Solar topping them up when they are not being used regularly, and the correct charge profile when they are they should not sulphate, which I think is the normal Achilles heal of AGM batteries (even better if they have the carbon layer).

But if ease of install (biggy for me), cost and storage space are an issue then I think the Leochs are a good option, especially as you are happy to live within their capabilities and I think I would sooner go with a quality LA option than cheaper lithium......

I used to accept that AGM leisure batteties were not very good for leisure use, particulary when dropped by the German car industry but that was many years ago. Advances with deep cycle leisure batteries see the introduction of pure lead carbon deep cycle batteries with some giving 1300 cycles at 50 % discharge and much, much higher if discharged less than this. In additional, some of these batteties can be safely and quickly charged from a very low discharged condition. The key to all this is understanding the charging regime and ensuring it is religiously followed. The Leoch AGMs do not require an equalisation charge which would harm them and the boost and float charge is almost identical to that of a lead acid battery, so little to no adjustment of the charger if set up for Lead acid and no adjustment required from thr alternator that may be required for lithium. Cheaper too.

 

[headlight]

I used to accept that AGM leisure batteties were not very good for leisure use, particulary when dropped by the German car industry but that was many years ago. Advances with deep cycle leisure batteries see the introduction of pure lead carbon deep cycle batteries with some giving 1300 cycles at 50 % discharge and much, much higher if discharged less than this. In additional, some of these batteties can be safely and quickly charged from a very low discharged condition. The key to all this is understanding the charging regime and ensuring it is religiously followed. The Leoch AGMs do not require an equalisation charge which would harm them and the boost and float charge is almost identical to that of a lead acid battery, so little to no adjustment of the charger if set up for Lead acid and no adjustment required from thr alternator that may be required for lithium. Cheaper too.

My problem is the physical size of the batteries.
Charging is not a problem as both my Victron MPPT and Sterling B2B have lead acid, gel, agm and lithium charge profiles.
I am going to go to the motorhome tomorrow and have another measure up in case there is some way that I can squeeze different batteries into the available space.

 

[autorouter]

One possibility is one of those portable power stations. All you want is an extra 50Ah, so you could store it anywhere convenient, and plug it in to charge up the installed batteries when they get a bit low. 50Ah at 12V is 600Wh, so with losses you would need at least 750Wh. Power stations with that sort of capacity are easily available, but a bit pricy obviously.

 

[Lenny HB]

Not really Lenny that's the problem.
The lead acids I have are "low profile" 175mm high so they fit.
The batteries are where they are as its the only place suitable and were put there by Vanbitz when they moved one so they could fit the B2B.

If you went for Lithium you can mount them virtually anywhere, no venting, needed no fire risk, you could put an underseat one, guess where - under a seat.

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[headlight]

One possibility is one of those portable power stations. All you want is an extra 50Ah, so you could store it anywhere convenient, and plug it in to charge up the installed batteries when they get a bit low. 50Ah at 12V is 600Wh, so with losses you would need at least 750Wh. Power stations with that sort of capacity are easily available, but a bit pricy obviously.

Yes that would work but as you say is a pricey solution to the problem.

 

[headlight]

If you went for Lithium you can mount them virtually anywhere, no venting, needed no fire risk, you could put an underseat one, guess where - under a seat.

Yes Lenny that would obviously be possible and I could probably fit a 230AH lithium under either or both of the cab seats.
But everything is at the other end of my van in the rear lounge, 2 x leisure batteries, B2B, smart shunt, inverter and MPPT so it would require a complete re-wire.
Plus for my usage I am not convinced that I need lithiums unless lithiums are the only thing that will fit.
I mentioned I was thinking of AGM's as the ones I mentioned were the right size and post orientation to be a straight forward replacement for my present lead acids.
However as no one has said that they think that AGM's are a good idea I won't be going down the AGM route.
Lead carbons were my original choice as I think they would suit my usage but size wise they are a problem.

 

[headlight]

Yesterday I went to the motorhome armed with a tape measure.
The locker that my batteries are in are under a sofa in the rear lounge.
I am limited on width because the locker has the drivers side wheel arch in it and the back of my gas locker.
Height is limited by cross pieces of wood that the hinged sofa frame slats sit on.
After some head scratching I think I can move 2 of the cross pieces of wood which will give me an extra 40mm height.
This means I can fit batteries up to say 230mm max overall height with 10mm clearance above.
I have this morning spoken to Alpha batteries concerning their Ritar Expedition Plus 110AH lead carbon GELS at £189.99 so £380 for 2.
They are rated at 1500 cycles at 50% DOD, 5 year warranty but can be discharged to a max of 80% DOD, however repeated discharging to 80% DOD will obviously reduce the cycles and life.
As discharging below 50% would only occur on the 3rd day of a 3 day winter trip where there is no charging input and I'm only likely to do this a couple of times a year I don't see a problem.
I think these would do the job for me.
With the extra height I can get I could also fit a pair of Fogstar Drift 105AH lithiums at £740 plus a home charger at £50 so nearly £800.
However for my usage I still am unsure that getting lithiums will really be of benefit to me.
I am going to mull the choice over.
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

 

[headlight]

Lenny HB thanks for the thumbs up.
What is it you like, the fact that I can fit lead cabon gels, Fogstar Drifts or the fact that I can get more height in the locker ?

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB thanks for the thumbs up.
What is it you like, the fact that I can fit lead cabon gels, Fogstar Drifts or the fact that I can get more height in the locker ?

You didn't mention AGM's.

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[Lenny HB]

Being a Swift if you fit Gels you will still need to replace the mains charger.

 

[headlight]

Being a Swift if you fit Gels you will still need to replace the mains charger.

I don't go on hook up so the mains charger will not be used. Charging is via 60amp B2B or solar depending on time of year.

 

[Lenny HB]

As you already have a 60 amp B2B lithium would make a lot of sense if you don't mind the financial outlay. With the extra space could you get a 230 ah in on it's side.

 

[headlight]

As you already have a 60 amp B2B lithium would make a lot of sense if you don't mind the financial outlay. With the extra space could you get a 230 ah in on it's side.

No I don't have the width to fit a 230AH lithium on its side but I can fit 2 x 105AH lithiums upright.
I know that lithiums would give me higher discharge rates, slightly more overall power and be lighter but as I don't need the high discharge rates, any more overall power or less weight I'm thinking that the lead carbon gels would suit my use ?

 

[PhilandMena]

That looks like a decent lead carbon battery and the charging profile is close to that of a deep cycle pure lead carbon AGM battery. I would just make sure your charger does not have an equalisation charge. (My Sargent 3 stage charger does an equaliastion charge of 15V every 30 days, so I only allow it to maintain the cab battery).
Choosing not to go for Lithium may well be right for you. I looked down that route but my alternator was not suitable for lithiums inspite of frogstar stating they had a drop in lithium. If you have the space a suitcase solar panel may be of great value for you if you want to top up while stationary.

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[headlight]

That looks like a decent lead carbon battery and the charging profile is close to that of a deep cycle pure lead carbon AGM battery. I would just make sure your charger does not have an equalisation charge. (My Sargent 3 stage charger does an equaliastion charge of 15V every 30 days, so I only allow it to maintain the cab battery).
Choosing not to go for Lithium may well be right for you. I looked down that route but my alternator was not suitable for lithiums inspite of frogstar stating they had a drop in lithium. If you have the space a suitcase solar panel may be of great value for you if you want to top up while stationary.

The lead carbon AGM's are 4 year warranty, 1300 cycles and recommended max 50% DOD compared to lead carbon GELs 5 year warranty, 1500 cycles and 80% max DOD.
I don't go on hook up so my mains charger, a Sargent unit, won't be used anyway as my charging is done either by solar or B2B.
I have 200 watts of solar on the roof and a 100 watt suitcase panel.
This is the reply I got from Alpha Batteries when I asked them the DOD for lead carbon gel and lead carbon agm.

 

[headlight]

That looks like a decent lead carbon battery and the charging profile is close to that of a deep cycle pure lead carbon AGM battery. I would just make sure your charger does not have an equalisation charge. (My Sargent 3 stage charger does an equaliastion charge of 15V every 30 days, so I only allow it to maintain the cab battery).
Choosing not to go for Lithium may well be right for you. I looked down that route but my alternator was not suitable for lithiums inspite of frogstar stating they had a drop in lithium. If you have the space a suitcase solar panel may be of great value for you if you want to top up while stationary.

Why was your alternator not suitable for lithiums ?

 

[PhilandMena]

Why was your alternator not suitable for lithiums ?

I have a 2011 Fiat x 250 2.3lt engine. A lithium battery will most likly draw to much current from the alternator and burn it out. I only found this out when doing some research about fitting Lithium into my motorhome. A modern alternator is needed for Lithiums.

 

[PhilandMena]

I note you have 300W of solar too. I have 375W and we were wilding in Germany in September and our lead carbons never went below 75% and we were watching our tv most nights and using our inverter (300W PSW) plus charging phones etc., etc.,. Three days for you will be a doddle.

 

[nabsim]

I have a 2011 Fiat x 250 2.3lt engine. A lithium battery will most likly draw to much current from the alternator and burn it out. I only found this out when doing some research about fitting Lithium into my motorhome. A modern alternator is needed for Lithiums.

My van is based on a 2005 sprinter chassis cab and I have been running a Votronic 30a b2b charging 2x100ah lifepo4 battery’s over 4 years without problem. My alternator is bog standard

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[headlight]

I have a 2011 Fiat x 250 2.3lt engine. A lithium battery will most likly draw to much current from the alternator and burn it out. I only found this out when doing some research about fitting Lithium into my motorhome. A modern alternator is needed for Lithiums.

My motorhome is a 2006 Fiat 2.3 litre.
Vanbitz fitted a 60AH Sterling B2B to charge my 2 x 100AH lead acids.
They said when they fitted it that if I was to change to lithium in the future my alternator would be fine and I just had to change the charge profile on the B2B from lead acid to lithium.
I don't think you need a modern alternator for lithiums.

 

[headlight]

I note you have 300W of solar too. I have 375W and we were wilding in Germany in September and our lead carbons never went below 75% and we were watching our tv most nights and using our inverter (300W PSW) plus charging phones etc., etc.,. Three days for you will be a doddle.

Sounds like we have similar usages

 

[PhilandMena]

My motorhome is a 2006 Fiat 2.3 litre.
Vanbitz fitted a 60AH Sterling B2B to charge my 2 x 100AH lead acids.
They said when they fitted it that if I was to change to lithium in the future my alternator would be fine and I just had to change the charge profile on the B2B from lead acid to lithium.
I don't think you need a modern alternator for lithiums.

I'm not an expert on this subject matter. I just use google and other posts to do a bit of research into a subject and much of my information comes from the internet. Here are a few below.
Do lithium batteries damage alternators?
The length of a time a lithium battery can draw a constant current at or above the alternators max output can exceed the design parameters of the alternator. This can cause the alternator to over heat and burn-out. Alternators are internally cooled by a fan on its rotor.7 Jun 2022

 

[Raul]

I have a 2011 Fiat x 250 2.3lt engine. A lithium battery will most likly draw to much current from the alternator and burn it out. I only found this out when doing some research about fitting Lithium into my motorhome. A modern alternator is needed for Lithiums.

You can protect your alternator with a B2B. The b2b works with ALL kinds of alternators. But not ALL alternators work on lithium without a b2b.
Hope this makes sense.

 

[headlight]

I'm not an expert on this subject matter. I just use google and other posts to do a bit of research into a subject and much of my information comes from the internet. Here are a few below.
Do lithium batteries damage alternators?
The length of a time a lithium battery can draw a constant current at or above the alternators max output can exceed the design parameters of the alternator. This can cause the alternator to over heat and burn-out. Alternators are internally cooled by a fan on its rotor.7 Jun 2022

I just watched that video.
Towards the end it said that one of the ways to avoid overheating and damaging the alternator is to fit a DC-DC charger which is another name for a B2B.
Vanbitz told me when they fitted my 60amp B2B that even when charging a lithium that was well below 50% DOD the highest amperage they had seen outputted by my 60 amp B2B was 55 amps.
If I was to fit lithiums to my motorhome, based on what Vanbitz told me, I wouldn't envisage any alternator problems.

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[autorouter]

An alternator is designed to charge a starter battery. Older non-smart alternators will fully charge a starter battery, smart alternators keep the starter battery less than fully charged, saving power and fuel.

If a lithium battery is connected directly to a non-smart alternator, it will get the same voltage as the starter battery. This can lead to excessive amps if the lithium battery is very flat, especially if it is also large.

If it's a smart alternator, the voltage will vary as the alternator switches on and off. Some alternators will put out 16V or more for short periods, which is not good for lithiums. Then they switch off, and the lithium (with a higher voltage) starts to charge the starter battery. This can run the lithium battery down, even to the point where it is nearly flat.

The solution to all these problems is to fit a B2B charger, which controls the charging voltage and amps, optimising the charging profile for whatever battery it is set to.

A B2B charger is essential with a smart alternator, whatever kind of leisure battery. For a non-smart alternator it is not essential, but is a good upgrade. It usually boosts the amps to a definite value, rather than whatever is left over from the starter battery charging. If it's a lithium battery the B2B also prevents excessive amps which might cause alternator problems.

 

[peterc10]

I have a 2011 Fiat x 250 2.3lt engine. A lithium battery will most likly draw to much current from the alternator and burn it out. I only found this out when doing some research about fitting Lithium into my motorhome. A modern alternator is needed for Lithiums.

No need to change the alternator. The reason for having a B2B is to protect the alternator by limiting the charge sent to the batteries.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Check out the classifieds there is a 200ah lithium going cheap, would that be any use ?

 

[VXman]

However as no one has said that they think that AGM's are a good idea I won't be going down the AGM route.
Lead carbons were my original choice as I think they would suit my usage but size wise they are a problem.

Well from my (limited) experience I don't feel AGM's are a bad idea. Mine are 3 years old and still functioning as well as they did when new. I use them quite hard regularly charging 2 electric bikes and an electric motorbike. I've also spent up to 10 days off grid without starting the engine.

Any decent make will offer a 5 year warranty so I don't see what the risk is. I'd be happy if a £150 battery lasted 5 years.

 

[PhilandMena]

Well from my (limited) experience I don't feel AGM's are a bad idea. Mine are 3 years old and still functioning as well as they did when new. I use them quite hard regularly charging 2 electric bikes and an electric motorbike. I've also spent up to 10 days off grid without starting the engine.

Any decent make will offer a 5 year warranty so I don't see what the risk is. I'd be happy if a £150 battery lasted 5 years.

Especially when leisure batteries are worthless. One just has to read whats covered and whats not to realise it's just a marketing ploy.

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