Best mains charger for Lithium

[bigtwin]

EHU booster is the unique selling point of the multiplus

Mastervolt also has that ‘unique’ feature and wonderful it is too.

Ian

 

[ian27]

I've just bought a 285ah Eco worthy lithium which is a good bit bigger (dimensions) than that old lead acid jobbie. It just about fits in that bottom tray.

I've removed all the screws & tried to remove the front panels around the raised section to get 240v cabling back/forth but it's not budging and it'll end up breaking if I force it. I think the fridge/unit would need removing to get this out which is too much work/can't be bothered with.

I could just keep everything separate.
Use the existing wiring and put the b2b under the bench seat along with a new lithium mains charger. This gets my battery sorted/charged properly & I could then get an inverter with sockets on the end and put that neat the battery.

I know I'd lose the blended power on charging/use but it would fine in most situations and give me mains power for a small air-fryer, wife's hairdryer etc.

Sound reasonable?

it is up to you of course , its your van and it does depend on what can come apart easily versus not. I found that the time consuming bit was figuring out how it came apart : seems the germans build layer on layer : in order to get one panel out you have to remove 7 other panels that are blocking it. Whereas the brits (my previous, bailey caravan) was a doddle rarely more than 4 screws for anything. once that was figured out, the putting back together was much quicker.

other places to look - if there's a false raised floor under the table then there might be a way to get under there (I used that on mine for additional side to side cables). Or: down through the floor and underneath clipped to the chassis... there will be lots of cabling using that path already.

the standalone inverters do the job but are less flexible - you have to run directly off their sockets, trailing leads needed etc.

 

[autorouter]

I was looking at the inverter being able to power truma 6e if I ran out of gas but think it pulls lots of power so I'm thinking the 12/1600 will do for a little 1000w air fryer etc.

I think you're right that the Truma pulls lots of power running the 230V elements. It has two elements, 900W each. Your 285Ah battery has an energy capacity of about 285 x 12 = 3500Wh. So running at 900W means it would last in theory 3500 / 900 = 3.9 hours, full to empty. So you could run it for a couple of hours I suppose.

A completely irrelevant fact is that the Truma runs at half power by a curious trick. Instead of just switching one element on and one off, it sends the positive half-waves of the AC waveform to one element, and the negative half-waves to the other, so both elements are running at half power. I think it's to ensure a more even distribution of heat in the heater.

 

[DuncT]

I've had another look and think I can get a mains cable under the van and then back easy enough.

This might sound silly but does the inverter need 3 core cable both ways or can I just run a live and then use the neutral/earth of the van?

Assume it's 3 core that's needed both ways.

 

[Just smiffy]

To add to this thread what seems complicated and a lot of information (good info I add) to simplify it a little, I have 400w of solar with a 100/30 victron controller and a victron Orion 50a b2b. I have a Renogy 1000w inverter, I use an electric kettle a remoska and a toaster, I have only been concerned about my battery depletion a few times as I very rarely plug in… usually my batteries are full by lunchtime and I do all this on two exide 85a gels… now I do know i punish them as Lenny always tells me so when I’m back in the uk I’m getting an eco-worthy 280 Bluetooth lithium which basically trebles my capacity and also the chargers solar and b2b will no doubt replace my usage without the need for an EHU charger more efficiently as it does now but will give me less days to be concerned about..

Sometimes I think we think we need certain items and it certainly complicates things when it can be a simple solution..

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[StillGoing]

I've just had another look and am realising that I'm not fitting any of the Multiplus inverters in that space. I don't really want to putting kit in other areas so think I'll just get the 50a Orion b2b that's small. And maybe just try/use my current built in mains charger from the EBL (set on lead acid).
The other thing is that I don't really want to have to change my cabling between this area and the leisure battery which is on the other side of the van as that will mean lifting the floor/panels.

I know the Multiplus would be best but space is v.limited.



View attachment 1023697

The mounting instructions for the Orion XS are:

3.1. Mounting
• Mount vertically on a non-flammable surface, with the power terminals facing downwards.
• For optimum performance, a minimum of 10cm space should be kept free around the product for cooling. With limited cooling, e.g. due to insufficient ventilation, the charging current will be reduced sooner than at the specified maximum ambient temperature. With improved airflow (e.g. forced airflow), the performance will greatly improve.
• With limited cooling or extreme ambient temperature, the charger can become hot (especially the bottom plate). Due to internal temperature control, the bottom plate will never get warmer than 90 °C; this is no problem for the charger. Make sure that the mounting surface can withstand this temperature.
• Mount close to the battery but never directly above the battery (to prevent damage from gassing of the battery).

 

[autorouter]

This might sound silly but does the inverter need 3 core cable both ways or can I just run a live and then use the neutral/earth of the van?

Assume it's 3 core that's needed both ways.

It's definitely not a silly question - the 3 wires, live, neutral and earth need to be run both ways. There is a switch inside the inverter that switches the output socket between the incoming EHU 230V AC and the inverter output 230V AC. Note that this is either/or, you cannot run EHU mains and inverter mains from the output socket at the same time.

I don't know exactly how this inverter does things, but usually it is set to prioritise the EHU mains. Whenever EHU is connected, the inverter output socket carries EHU mains. When EHU is unplugged the inverter output socket carries the inverter output, taking power from the batteries.

 

[Pausim]

I've had another look and think I can get a mains cable under the van and then back easy enough.

This might sound silly but does the inverter need 3 core cable both ways or can I just run a live and then use the neutral/earth of the van?

Assume it's 3 core that's needed both ways.

autorouter has already answered your specific question but as a general point it might be a big mistake to assume the output from an inverter only sends live power down one wire. I don’t know specifically how the Multiplus and Renogy work but a lot of inverters output live A/C down both wires with no separate live and neutral. This is worth knowing if one of these inverters is used with a UK switched socket because a single pole switch will only be isolating half the supply.

 

[DuncT]

So just to confirm... If I fit a Multiplus at the front above the battery it will have to be installed on its side as there's defo no space for it to be upright. Is that ok?

And, I only need to run 2 lengths of 3 core mains from the bench seat to the battery (under the van) and then 1 length of thick cable from starter battery -> leisure battery/b2b and maybe a remote wire so it knows when the alternator is running?

Cheers guys

 

[MichaelT]

So just to confirm... If I fit a Multiplus at the front above the battery it will have to be installed on its side as there's defo no space for it to be upright. Is that ok?

And, I only need to run 2 lengths of 3 core mains from the bench seat to the battery (under the van) and then 1 length of thick cable from starter battery -> leisure battery/b2b and maybe a remote wire so it knows when the alternator is running?

Cheers guys

Never fitted a multiplus but you'll need some thick 50mm (maybe thicker depending on how big inverter is and length) cable to connect it to the battery.

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[Gary S]

So just to confirm... If I fit a Multiplus at the front above the battery it will have to be installed on its side as there's defo no space for it to be upright. Is that ok?

And, I only need to run 2 lengths of 3 core mains from the bench seat to the battery (under the van) and then 1 length of thick cable from starter battery -> leisure battery/b2b and maybe a remote wire so it knows when the alternator is running?

Cheers guys

Yes, thats exactly how I've just had mine fitted.

In an ideal world you'd install it vertically as thats its natural orientation, but it will work horizontally

 

[StillGoing]

So just to confirm... If I fit a Multiplus at the front above the battery it will have to be installed on its side as there's defo no space for it to be upright. Is that ok?

It’s a good idea to read the manual before you buy

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...0V/32424-MultiPlus-II___Quattro-II-pdf-en.pdf

 

[Pausim]

It’s a good idea to read the manual before you buy

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...0V/32424-MultiPlus-II___Quattro-II-pdf-en.pdf

The 10cm all round clearance could be impossible to achieve in some locations.

 

[Lenny HB]

It’s a good idea to read the manual before you buy

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...0V/32424-MultiPlus-II___Quattro-II-pdf-en.pdf

The manual is pretty useless.

 

[AdrianChen]

So just to confirm... If I fit a Multiplus at the front above the battery it will have to be installed on its side as there's defo no space for it to be upright. Is that ok?

And, I only need to run 2 lengths of 3 core mains from the bench seat to the battery (under the van) and then 1 length of thick cable from starter battery -> leisure battery/b2b and maybe a remote wire so it knows when the alternator is running?

Cheers guys

The DC connections from your leisure battery to the Multiplus would be fairly beefy cable: probably 70mm² unless it's a very short run. The positive cable would need an appropriate fuse around 300amp.

There is a facility on the multiplus to trickle charge your starter battery whenever you are on EHU, you may want to use that so a 6mm² positive cable could be run from the Multi, to the starter battery. Personally I don't use that facility, but many do....

For the AC connections you would use 3 core mains cable from your EHU input plug via a suitable protection/fuse to the AC input of the Multi, and from the Multi's output to your vans consumer unit via an appropriate RCBO type device. There are refinements you can make to avoid running heating/fridge etc from the inverter, which would gobble the battery fairly quickly if allowed.

On mine, I got a pro to do the install because I don't trust myself with AC!

So an inverter is more involved than wiring in a B2B, but in my mind AC, and the bigger currents used for the Multiplus deserve some knowledge and respect for the sake of safety!

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[DuncT]

I've had a lay under the van and can easily get 2 3 core mains cables from the bench seat area -> battery in the driver's step. (Which I'll put in trunking).

So I'm going to go for the Multiplus. I think the 12/2000 model will be enough. Can I mount this on say 12mm ply?

And could someone please just give me some cable thicknesses and fuse requirements.

Mains cable from ehu -> Multiplus and then back. Around 4m each way and will just go for normal 13a Flexi 3 core both ways?

Leisure battery -> Multiplus. This is about 50cm away and I know it needs to be juicy. But how juicy? And what fuse? And same live/neg?

Starter battery -> Orion xs 50a b2b charger. This is about 1.5m away. Not sure on cable guage or fusing?

Orion xs b2b -> leisure battery. This is about 50cm away. Not sure on guage and is it the same for the negative? I can earth it to the chassis, the leisure battery or back to the starter?

Thanks again for all your help guys

 

[Lenny HB]

For the B2B 16mm² will be more than enough.

For the Multiplus as it is such a short cable run 25mm² will be good.

Fuse size 150 amp.

 

[LithiumConvert]

The majority of people who go down the Lithium leisure battery route do so to facilitate a different way to power their leisure vehicle.

Hmmm. Not sure about that.

Certainly, in my case - I want the standard ways to power the vehicle - I just want more battery capacity, without too much increase in the weight. (and batteries with a longer leifespan)

 

[Carpmart]

Hmmm. Not sure about that.

Certainly, in my case - I want the standard ways to power the vehicle - I just want more battery capacity, without too much increase in the weight. (and batteries with a longer leifespan)

Quote the whole post not part of it please… you change the context…

It’s like me quoting ‘increase in weight’ from your post above… Hmmm, not sure why you would say that, LiFePo4 are significantly lighter than FLA batteries!

 

[LithiumConvert]

Quote the whole post not part of it please… you change the context…

The rest just rambles on to justify the first unverified statement.

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[jumar]

Yes, thats exactly how I've just had mine fitted.

In an ideal world you'd install it vertically as thats its natural orientation, but it will work horizontallyView attachment 1024327

Very compact and much tidier than mine...have you experienced any overheating issues of your Victron components with the warm air pipework passing through the battery box ?

 

[Pausim]

Compact and tidy is nice but some of those units should have 10cm clearance all round and at least one says it should be mounted on a non-flammable surface. Are these instructions vital or does the equipment self regulate to avoid problems. I think many of us would have difficulty finding vertical non-flammable surfaces.

 

[DuncT]

I'm not sure what non-flammable surface I can use? Cement board?
It seems most installs are on a sheet of ply. I was going to do that and then maybe even run the cables behind and through holes.... All professional

 

[wireman]

Compact and tidy is nice but some of those units should have 10cm clearance all round and at least one says it should be mounted on a non-flammable surface. Are these instructions vital or does the equipment self regulate to avoid problems. I think many of us would have difficulty finding vertical non-flammable surfaces.

Simples: Sheet of 1 or 2-millimetre alloy screwed to the flammable surface big enough to allow heat to dispatch. If you are really worried fit a fan with a temp sensor set to a safe temp to keep it cool.

 

[Gary S]

Very compact and much tidier than mine...have you experienced any overheating issues of your Victron components with the warm air pipework passing through the battery box ?

Nothing of any concern to report so far, but Nigel from OPS did a you tube video and he mentions it should all be good with the two vents, but if necessary we could always retrospectively fit a 12v fan to force air through.

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[AdrianChen]

Nothing of any concern to report so far, but Nigel from OPS did a you tube video and he mentions it should all be good with the two vents, but if necessary we could always retrospectively fit a 12v fan to force air through.

Surprising how much difference a couple of vents make.....

 

[ian27]

Mains cable from ehu -> Multiplus and then back. Around 4m each way and will just go for normal 13a Flexi 3 core both ways?

don't think anyone answered this. Buy the heavier duty 3 core mains flex i.e. 2.5mm2. Iif you do ever decide to run a 16a / 3kw inverter you have the cable. As its going to be external I'd probably use Arctic grade.

Arctic Grade 3-Core Flexible PVC Mains Cable - 2.5mm² 20A - Blue

Arctic grade 3-core flexible PVC 240V mains cable, 2.5mm² 20A in blue. Ideal for making hook-up leads to use in low temps or connecting to a consumer unit.

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

for the DC side, the manual says:

suggest you draw a diagram (draw.io works well) and take some validation on cable sizing from whoever you plan to buy your inverter from. Cable rating calculators on 12volt planet and bimble solar. The better suppliers in this market seem to be good at presales advice not just box shifting. I got mine from Bimble and got some good design pointers on fusing and cabling.

There is loads to read on numerous forums and youtube to self-educate : suggest to do that before making final decisions.
DC: side -ve return for any run should be same size as +ve - current is the same on both legs.

 

[ian27]

This is worth knowing if one of these inverters is used with a UK switched socket because a single pole switch will only be isolating half the supply.

all mains sockets in this motorhome situation should either be double pole switched (rare) or unswitched.
similarly any RCD's, MCB's or RCBO's used should be double-pole. In case anyone is interested here is a source of double pole single module bidirectional RCBO's, the only brand I could find that fitted all of these contraints https://www.electrical2go.co.uk/consumer-units/devices/rcbo-circuit-breakers.html?manufacturer=5875