Are the days of the motorhome numbered? (1 Viewer)

[LithiumConvert]

I suggest, Yes.

Why? Because the emissions regulations (among others), mean that the manufacturers are finding it increasinly difficult to build a motorhome that complies wth the regulations and is fit for the purpose that we are looking for.

 

[BillandHelen]

We recently changed our 7 year old diesel BMW X3 which had been 100% reliable for a new Toyota Yaris Cross Excel self charging hybrid. We live in a city centre penthouse apartment with an underground car park with no charging ability, so decided on a hybrid rather than a full electric. Toyota quality is good though short of BMW, but to be fair, the Toyota is half the price! Economy though is just astonishing, we are averaging 62mpg in a mix of city/motorway driving, it’s driving in ev mode for about 50% of the time. Must say, I was a sceptic about hybrid, but fully convinced now.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Why ....are you interested in saving the environment ? If you are thats a great, if complicated question

In the meantime, if you'd like to save money, and help clean up the air you breathe, just jump in and get one - especially if you can charge at home, then its a complete no brainer .

I didn't say I wanted to save the environment.... If you're going to comment please read and digest what was written before making assumptions and jumping on your keyboard.
It's a simple question which has so far not been answered over several years of attempts.
PS I'm not suggestingg one or the other I would just like an answer.

 

[Ernesto]

I didn't say I wanted to save the environment.... If you're going to comment please read and digest what was written before making assumptions and jumping on your keyboard.
It's a simple question which has so far not been answered over several years of attempts.
PS I'm not suggestingg one or the other I would just like an answer.

It’s called irony ….

So it’s a simple question …. thats defied several years of attempts to answer it . Something doesn’t quite add up there.

 

[Mzracer]

What intrigues me is why electricity from the wind and sun, which is free once we've built the kit, is such a hard sell. I guess these people must be blissfully happy paying £1.60/lt to fill their vans with fuel ...

It is such a hard sell because it is not as simple as you suggest, whilst the energy source of renewables is free at point of first contact the same is also true of fossil fuels. Whilst the fossil fuel is in the ground then it is effectively free, it is getting it out of the ground and refining and distribution that starts to cost, then governments add tax.

Renewables are not free, licenses have to be paid to site wind farms, ground has to be rented for solar PV sites and infrastructure has to be maintained.

Now for the big elephant in the room, at some stage governments are going to have to recover the lost fuel duty as less vehicles use fossil fuels. I fully predict that at some stage there will be some kind of separately metered and taxed supply for EV's and the cost per unit of energy will then increase, low cost night time charging tariff's will be eroded as more demand is placed on the grid at night time. No bean counter is going to practically give something away that people are actually clamouring for.

We have not even started talking about BIK of people charging EV's at work, I am surprised that HMRC have not jumped on that one yet. Imagine the uproar if someone filled their car from the company supply of red diesel ??

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[Ernesto]

It is such a hard sell because it is not as simple as you suggest, whilst the energy source of renewables is free at point of first contact the same is also true of fossil fuels. Whilst the fossil fuel is in the ground then it is effectively free, it is getting it out of the ground and refining and distribution that starts to cost, then governments add tax.

Renewables are not free, licenses have to be paid to site wind farms, ground has to be rented for solar PV sites and infrastructure has to be maintained.

Now for the big elephant in the room, at some stage governments are going to have to recover the lost fuel duty as less vehicles use fossil fuels. I fully predict that at some stage there will be some kind of separately metered and taxed supply for EV's and the cost per unit of energy will then increase, low cost night time charging tariff's will be eroded as more demand is placed on the grid at night time. No bean counter is going to practically give something away that people are actually clamouring for.

We have not even started talking about BIK of people charging EV's at work, I am surprised that HMRC have not jumped on that one yet. Imagine the uproar if someone filled their car from the company supply of red diesel ??

Ok fair point ...I should not have said "free". A better word would have been cheap.

Renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels - and that includes subsidies - and are getting cheaper all the time. And just to cover off the subsidy argument, Fossil fuels have had more subsidies every year than renewables since 2015 (bar one year). So I should have said..."I'm intrigued why cheaper energy is such a hard sell....."

I fully expect governments may decide to tax the new very cheap energy source. A fossil car costs roughly 20p per mile in fuel, of which roughly half (10p) is tax. An EV costs 2.5p per mile on an overnight tariff already.

So the Govt could tax drivers at the same rate per mile as it does now (10p), and fossil fuel drivers costs would be almost halved? And thats with only 40% of electricity being cheap renewables ?? And thats ignoring all the other uses of electricity - heating, lighting, power, aircon....which the govt taxes ?
Or it could tax at the same rate as fossil fuel and be rolling in money to fix NHS, roads, schools social care...etc etc

We're making some big generalisations here I know ... but the broad principles are energy could be about to become dirt cheap...like really, really cheap, and we can use as much of it as we like without doing any damage to the climate - even if that doesn't matter to many. Thats got to be worth a punt hasn't it?

PS Fossil fuels are only "free in the ground" if you own the ground. We own all of what little sun we have in the UK and all of the wind, tidal energy etc

 

[Mzracer]

We're making some big generalisations here I know ... but the broad principles are energy could be about to become dirt cheap...like really, really cheap, and we can use as much of it as we like without doing any damage to the climate - even if that doesn't matter to many. Thats got to be worth a punt hasn't it?

Ernesto you are an intelligent person, I know this for sure, you can construct decent arguments (although not convincing) however you are completely day dreaming if you think any kind of mass energy supply is about to become cheap.

 

[CazPaul]

Ok fair point ...I should not have said "free". A better word would have been cheap.

Renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels - and that includes subsidies - and are getting cheaper all the time. And just to cover off the subsidy argument, Fossil fuels have had more subsidies every year than renewables since 2015 (bar one year). So I should have said..."I'm intrigued why cheaper energy is such a hard sell....."

I fully expect governments may decide to tax the new very cheap energy source. A fossil car costs roughly 20p per mile in fuel, of which roughly half (10p) is tax. An EV costs 2.5p per mile on an overnight tariff already.

So the Govt could tax drivers at the same rate per mile as it does now (10p), and fossil fuel drivers costs would be almost halved? And thats with only 40% of electricity being cheap renewables ?? And thats ignoring all the other uses of electricity - heating, lighting, power, aircon....which the govt taxes ?
Or it could tax at the same rate as fossil fuel and be rolling in money to fix NHS, roads, schools social care...etc etc

We're making some big generalisations here I know ... but the broad principles are energy could be about to become dirt cheap...like really, really cheap, and we can use as much of it as we like without doing any damage to the climate - even if that doesn't matter to many. Thats got to be worth a punt hasn't it?

PS Fossil fuels are only "free in the ground" if you own the ground. We own all of what little sun we have in the UK and all of the wind, tidal energy etc

It won’t finish up cheaper in a few years, it will finish up cleaner I agree.

 

[Ernesto]

Ernesto you are an intelligent person, I know this for sure, you can construct decent arguments (although not convincing) however you are completely day dreaming if you think any kind of mass energy supply is about to become cheap.

It may not be cheap to you and I forever. But if its way cheaper than buying off the Arabs, then someone benefits - and its either us or the Govt. And if the Govt benefits instead of us, then taxes will be lower, or services will be better. Or both

Renewables are cheaper to produce - that is a fact. Will the govt completely waste the opportunity ? Maybe. But even they might struggle to completely blow this opportunity

 

[Mzracer]

Agree that renewables could be cheaper, I am not sure governments will waste the opportunity as such, they will just not see the opportunity like you do. The governments will want their pound of tax !

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[Ernesto]

Agree that renewables could be cheaper, I am not sure governments will waste the opportunity as such, they will just not see the opportunity like you do. The governments will want their pound of tax !

Yes you're probably right there on tax.

But we shouldn't dismiss the renewables idea, because the politicians are complete clowns and may screw it up. We need to hold them to account and make sure the undoubted benefits are used wisely.

 

[Gromett]

Forgetting the arguments around the generation of electricity, I have been trying for years to get an answer to the following.....
How much carbon is created during say a 40000 miles EV including infrastructure and everything from the ground upwards compared to a diesel vehicle of the same size and mileage including their own emissions and final scrapping back to base material.

Complicated question. Depends on where the car was made and where it is driven.

If it is made in a dirty country and driven in a dirty country then the savings could be as little as 22%. (China/Poland)
If it was made in Sweden and Driven in Sweden then it will emit 80% less CO2.

The other thing to bear in mind is that when an EV is scrapped the battery is not necessarily scrapped at the same time and can go into 2nd life projects like static storage systems.
Then it can be recycled after another 10-15 years in that task. Whilst performing that task it is storing excess renewable energy from solar for example and giving it back at night thus saving even more CO2 emissions.

There are many other things to take into account. So the up front embodied CO2 is the least of it.

The problem that a lot of reports have that find against EV's is that they include the CO2 from the fuel itself, but not the drilling, processing, transport and distribution so called well to wheel.

One final point. The grid is getting cleaner year on year. So the EV you buy today will actually produce less CO2 in 5 years than it does today per mile. Whereas your Diesel car due to wear and aging will produce more CO2.

 

[Gromett]

Petroleumblownapart

When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars?

You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet.

www.reuters.com

Latest data shows lifetime emissions of EVs lower than petrol, diesel - Energy Post

Critics of the rapid roll out of electric vehicles correctly say that their factory door emissions (i.e. CO2 emitted during manufacture) are higher than those for standard petrol and diesel cars. Then you have to add the emissions of the local grid (how renewable is it?!) that’s charging your...

energypost.eu

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

It’s called irony ….

So it’s a simple question …. thats defied several years of attempts to answer it . Something doesn’t quite add up there.

Precisely the reason for my question.... Too many vested interests producing too many skewed results..... Probably producing more waste of energy than makes sense and certainly polluting the decision making atmosphere, whilst not showing any real progress in protecting ours!

 

[Ernesto]

Precisely the reason for my question.... Too many vested interests producing too many skewed results..... Probably producing more waste of energy than makes sense and certainly polluting the decision making atmosphere, whilst not showing any real progress in protecting ours!

My point was … I believe EV’s are already significantly cheaper to run (both fuel and maintenance) and will become cheaper to purchase anytime soon. They also do not pollute air as much in our towns and cities. Thats a good enough reason to consider one. And support renewable energy growth.

Many people wrongly lump EV supporters and eco- fanatics into the same group. I agree there are too many vested interests and it is a complicated question …. but it doesn’t need to be answered definitively, to make EV’s and Renewables a good idea.

The frustration I have is people who chuck the whole Renewables industry and all its benefits under the bus for not being proven as squeaky clean green, even when the economic and air quality benefits are massive.

If greenness was EV’s and renewable energy’s single only claimed benefit, I’d understand the resistance a little more.

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[Petroleumblownapart]

My point was … I believe EV’s are already significantly cheaper to run (both fuel and maintenance) and will become cheaper to purchase anytime soon. They also do not pollute air as much in our towns and cities. Thats a good enough reason to consider one. And support renewable energy growth.

Many people wrongly lump EV supporters and eco- fanatics into the same group. I agree there are too many vested interests and it is a complicated question …. but it doesn’t need to be answered definitively, to make EV’s and Renewables a good idea.

The frustration I have is people who chuck the whole Renewables industry and all its benefits under the bus for not being proven as squeaky clean green, even when the economic and air quality benefits are massive.

If greenness was EV’s and renewable energy’s single only claimed benefit, I’d understand the resistance a little more.

I see no point in trying to discuss my question with you, as once again, you are either missing or deliberately ignoring the context of my query. Just to explain, one last time.... I don't care about the financial differences... I SPECIFICALLY SAID CARBON!

 

[starquake]

I see no point in trying to discuss my question with you, as once again, you are either missing or deliberately ignoring the context of my query. Just to explain, one last time.... I don't care about the financial differences... I SPECIFICALLY SAID CARBON!

Does it matter that much. A oil burning vehicle will pollute more over time as the engine gets more and more coked and old.

Where an EV of any type gets cleaner over time as the electricity network gets cleaner.

There’s a good video on fully charged discounting a lot of myths

A lot of the people commenting here that think EV is dirtier I would suggest watching the above as it’s the industry responding to an anti EV agenda in media that is likely sponsored by oil companies.

Example of the people on above with the EV fire stories in media. Largest leaser of cars in UK Lex with near 1/4 of all EV in UK on its books. Total fires in their fleet. 0

They can’t say same of their petrol and diesel fleets.

Fact is anti EV propaganda gets clicks. You don’t hear from those of us spending 200 quid a year on 15k miles instead of 1500 in diesel.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

Does it matter that much. A oil burning vehicle will pollute more over time as the engine gets more and more coked and old.

Where an EV of any type gets cleaner over time as the electricity network gets cleaner.

There’s a good video on fully charged discounting a lot of myths

A lot of the people commenting here that think EV is dirtier I would suggest watching the above as it’s the industry responding to an anti EV agenda in media that is likely sponsored by oil companies.

Example of the people on above with the EV fire stories in media. Largest leaser of cars in UK Lex with near 1/4 of all EV in UK on its books. Total fires in their fleet. 0

They can’t say same of their petrol and diesel fleets.

Fact is anti EV propaganda gets clicks. You don’t hear from those of us spending 200 quid a year on 15k miles instead of 1500 in diesel.

CARBON CARBON CARBON?

 

[busby]

No mention of pollution of all vehicles regarding particulates from the tyres interacting with the road surface,, Have read its possibly higher than particulates from diesel engines..BUSBY.

 

[Petroleumblownapart]

No mention of pollution of all vehicles regarding particulates from the tyres interacting with the road surface,, Have read its possibly higher than particulates from diesel engines..BUSBY.

Yes quite true. That's why I wanted to know the overall comparison carbon footprint of electric and diesels. The price of ownership is not relevant until you wish make a choice between EV or DV.

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[starquake]

Agree on tyres it’s an issue on all cars. Top 10 heaviest cars are not EVs and most EVs weigh now the same as diesel suv. So to most parts tyres are similar between diesel and EV in terms of particulates.

However the big difference is brake dust. EV that’s already near 0 as it’s rare you even use brakes as the motor regen is that strong. You have to be doing near emergency stop levels to use pads on most EV. Quite a few studies on health aspects of brake dust and that’s an area already dekonstatably better by the facts of most ev owners on first set of pads at 100k miles.

 

[Barclaybasher]

Brake dust ?

I give up !

This thread has gone beyond boring !

 

[Ernesto]

Yes quite true. That's why I wanted to know the overall comparison carbon footprint of electric and diesels. The price of ownership is not relevant until you wish make a choice between EV or DV.

Depending on which study is posted its seem to vary between very slightly greener all the way to significantly greener, but then again all car manufacturing is not great from the green angle

Not trying to be awkward but you said in post 272, its not about the environment… can I ask why its important?

 

[Ray-Vic]

Tesla use a different cell and voltage to everyone else. Hence Tesla charge points n everyone else's charge points. Not worked on Tesla only the Bavarian motor works . make which are incidentally Chinese made now.

I think it's only the motors which are different, the charging is the same. A huge amount of Tesla Superchargers are now open to anyone to use, no matter what car. My Godson charges his VW ID.3 on a Tesla Supercharger at Ruxley Garden Centre.

 

[nabsim]

Ernesto you are an intelligent person, I know this for sure, you can construct decent arguments (although not convincing) however you are completely day dreaming if you think any kind of mass energy supply is about to become cheap.

If you search for the What Car road test on YouTube where they tested costs for EV and ICE versions of two different brands you will see that the EV is in fact more expensive on fuel than the ICE version. This was using the fast chargers on motorways and motorway fuel so yes both could be obtained cheaper. It makes a better comparison for anyone who can’t charge at home though for me

I am not anti EV but I know it didn’t add up for me as I would only be on public chargers. Last year when I was in the market (maybe 18 months ago) there was a lot of problems with public chargers not actually working, located in areas that weren’t considered safe for lone women or not accessible to disabled drivers. A way to go yet I think before there is a level playing field

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[Ernesto]

If you search for the What Car road test on YouTube where they tested costs for EV and ICE versions of two different brands you will see that the EV is in fact more expensive on fuel than the ICE version. This was using the fast chargers on motorways and motorway fuel so yes both could be obtained cheaper. It makes a better comparison for anyone who can’t charge at home though for me

I am not anti EV but I know it didn’t add up for me as I would only be on public chargers. Last year when I was in the market (maybe 18 months ago) there was a lot of problems with public chargers not actually working, located in areas that weren’t considered safe for lone women or not accessible to disabled drivers. A way to go yet I think before there is a level playing field

80% of charging on average is done at home. I'm north of 95% home charging. Any comparison of costs using motorway services costs is niche and rather unrepresentative I'd suggest.

If you cant charge at home, its probably not right for you yet

 

[starquake]

If you search for the What Car road test on YouTube where they tested costs for EV and ICE versions of two different brands you will see that the EV is in fact more expensive on fuel than the ICE version. This was using the fast chargers on motorways and motorway fuel so yes both could be obtained cheaper. It makes a better comparison for anyone who can’t charge at home though for me

I am not anti EV but I know it didn’t add up for me as I would only be on public chargers. Last year when I was in the market (maybe 18 months ago) there was a lot of problems with public chargers not actually working, located in areas that weren’t considered safe for lone women or not accessible to disabled drivers. A way to go yet I think before there is a level playing field

The thing is you can have 2 drivers on the same motorway chargers with one paying 40p, and the guy next door paying £1 a unit on the same vendor on the same charger bank. The price paid by people rocking up with a credit card although the easiest way to pay is rarely the cheapest (similar to how some fuel cards provide massive discounts). The Whatcar assumption that it's all at the higher rate is flawed.

Example is I have a card via Octopus (home energy provider) that provides a significant off-peak discount (and offpeak is ~7:30pm to 6am aiui) on certain charger brands, and 10% off at non-off-peak times on near all chargers. Tesla chargers are open to all at not a huge premium to home prices in many cases. When I use a charger, this is my first choice as #1 it doesn't take a £50 reservation on my debit card, and #2 it's cheaper than paying by card in 99% of cases and #3 It just comes off my monthly leccy bill.

But as commented public chargers not actually working, real EV owners view is I've not had a public charger fail on me once in 2.5 years - excepting a certain brand which ALL ev owners know to avoid (Geniepoint). It was an issue 3 years ago but Geniepoint charger at 2 places we go has been working 1 month in ~ 3 years. T
The reality of EV ownership is as said 95% home charging, and run a cable to charge if possible at destination. Wierdly many places still provide free charging when I travel on business as a "green" thing so the actual cost to me motoring is 2p a mile if I count all electricity from home, but probably 1p a mile on trips where my client has a charger for me to use whilst at their site. SOME councils provide free public charging even today to everyone in their catchment. It's rare, but it was happening even last year.
The lone women/disabled access is an issue mostly off the motorway network, as agree it's a problem for both with outside the motorways some very poorly designed bays with not enough space in the dark etc. However its mitigated in last year or two by some franky excellent networks like Ospreys, where you have sites off the highways with 12+ chargers and a coffee shop with well designed bays. But if you leaving with 100% charge, range today is that I can drive Ipswich to Scarborough or Manchester without needing to charge en-route at all.

In the 3 years of ownership there has been some days where I've even been paid by Octopus to charge the car, making the cost per mile to be -2p a mile (I was on the agile tariff back then). But even this year with high energy prices there has been a few days where you would have been paid to charge your EV, so this fallacy on all prices are expensive all the time, is provably incorrect. https://energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-eastern-england/ in fact says there are 2 periods in last week alone where you would have been paid to charge your car.

 

[Ray-Vic]

80% of charging on average is done at home. I'm north of 95% home charging. Any comparison of costs using motorway services costs is niche and rather unrepresentative I'd suggest.

If you cant charge at home, its probably not right for you yet

And work. I charge my Tesla both at home and work and having had it now 4 years, I can say it is significantly cheaper to run than my previous diesel Audi, particularly when you take in to account servicing costs (or lack of in the case of Tesla).

 

[Mzracer]

I charge my Tesla both at home and work and having had it now 4 years, Incan say it is significantly cheaper to run than my previous Diesel Audi, particularly when you take in to account servicing costs

Make the most of it HMRC will clamp down on this charging at work game, it is an untaxed benefit as far as I can see.

 

[Ray-Vic]

Make the most of it HMRC will clamp down on this charging at work game, it is an untaxed benefit as far as I can see.

At this point it isn't taxed as separating charging from regular power usage isn't possible (or needing to be declared) but even when/if it is taxed it's no different to my fuel benefit previously, only now I'm only paying 2% BIK which makes an enormous difference. I'm sure this will change, but I won't be any worse off, and have had 4 years of very worthwhile savings

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[Ray-Vic]

Also you're only taxed on fuel used for your own personal use, not fuel used for work. As I have a charge point at home, I do charge at home also so can easily argue my charging at work is for business miles only, so no fuel benefit is payable.