You wonder what happened to the British motorcycle industry.

[69473]

Reading Adrian Newey's book How To Build A Car.
One of the greatest Formula One designers of all time, great book, excellent read.
In it he talks about his motorbikes as a youth.
At 17 he had a Moto Moroni Sport 350 and by 18 was riding a Ducati 900 SS.
Given his first job by Harvey Postlewaite at Fittipaldi racing who's interview consisted in test riding the Ducati to compare with his own Moto Guzzi Le man's.
Two great designers riding Italian bikes!
Great book.

 

[Nasher]

Finished bike.

Not mine - I only rebuilt the engine




View attachment 457236

I remember the 'joke' at the time:

Question: How do you tell the difference between a Kawasaki and a Suzuki?

Answer: Divide the number of exhausts by the number of spark plugs, if the answer is 1.333333 recurring - it's a Suzuki!!!


That said, Kawasaki two strokes were renowned for fouled spark plugs, so there was a little recess behind the side panel with holders for 2 spare plugs

However, Norton failed to install holders for spare main bearings on early commandos

 

[Nasher]

I just like the smell of a2 stroke bike, but a soft spot for the 350 lc

 

[Nasher]

Castrol R would make a cracking aftershave

 

[mitzimad]

im no biker cant see the point of drivng anything that can fall over when stationary but can some one explain "padding the crank case" which has been mentioned twice
All the ills of the 50/60 motor trades can be attributed to lack of investment and bad management people blame the workforce with strikes and walkouts but that was a symptom of the bad mangement

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[Spriddler]

Reading Adrian Newey's book How To Build A Car.

Great book.

As it happens I'm halfway through it at this very time and reading a chapter every couple of days as I don't want to get to the end.

 

[John Barrett]

im no biker cant see the point of drivng anything that can fall over when stationary but can some one explain "padding the crank case" which has been mentioned twice
All the ills of the 50/60 motor trades can be attributed to lack of investment and bad management people blame the workforce with strikes and walkouts but that was a symptom of the bad mangement

The internal volume of the crankcase is reduced with strategically placed pads, thus increasing the primary compression ratio. Simple if one is an engineer!

 

[David and Sally]

Finished bike.

Not mine - I only rebuilt the engine




View attachment 457236

Beautiful.

 

[Spriddler]

can some one explain "padding the crank case" which has been mentioned twice

In a traditional 2-stroke the fuel/air mixture is drawn into the crankcase by pressure drop as the piston rises.
When the piston descends it pressurises the crankcase, forcing fuel/air to the combustion chamber via a transfer port. By padding the crankcase its volume is reduced which increases the volume and speed of fuel transfer to the combustion chamber.
I tried it on my Greeves scrambler but it wasn't a success as I never managed to get the carburation right.

 

[David and Sally]

In a traditional 2-stroke the fuel/air mixture is drawn into the crankcase by pressure drop as the piston rises.
When the piston descends it pressurises the crankcase, forcing fuel/air to the combustion chamber via a transfer port. By padding the crankcase its volume is reduced which increases the volume and speed of fuel transfer to the combustion chamber.

Does that not mean that there is a reduced air/fuel intake too.? Or is there a way to add pressure to the intake to ensure as much fuel is taken in anyway?

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[Spriddler]

Does that not mean that there is a reduced air/fuel intake too.? Or is there a way to add pressure to the intake to ensure as much fuel is taken in anyway?

Yes, the volume of the c/case is reduced. However, the power of a 2-stroke is derived from the fact the every stroke is a power stroke, light flywheels and the (screaming) speed of revolution of a race engine. A two-stroke has very little 'grunt' (unlike a 4-stroke) and needs a multi-speed gearbox to keep the engine performing in its relatively narrow power band.
The faster that the engine revs the faster the fuel must get to the combustion chamber so a higher pressure in the crankcase helps achieve that, (which can also be achieved by supercharging or turbo charging).
To get the best out of the padding it's desirable to increase the comp ratio and modify the inlet port so that it opens earlier when the piston uncovers it, giving a longer inlet period. A larger (jetted) carburettor is usually fitted.
Extreme race mods make the bike rather intractable so standard bikes are a compromise between achieving greatest power and best street tractability.
Many modern 2-strokes have fuel injection or induction direct from the carb into the crankcase via a reed valve in the crankcase.
It's a big subject..............

 

[olley]

Have a read of this to understand why UK bike manufacturing along with the rest of our industry and transport received so little investment after WW2. Basically old men refused to give up former glories of empire and wasted the Marshal plan money, while we spent 7% of GDP on defence Germany and Japan spent zilch.

BBC - History - British History in depth: The Wasting of Britain's Marshall Aid

A lost opportunity, by Correlli Barnett

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[jongood]

Yes, the volume of the c/case is reduced. However, the power of a 2-stroke is derived from the fact the every stroke is a power stroke, light flywheels and the (screaming) speed of revolution of a race engine. A two-stroke has very little 'grunt' (unlike a 4-stroke) and needs a multi-speed gearbox to keep the engine performing in its relatively narrow power band.
The faster that the engine revs the faster the fuel must get to the combustion chamber so a higher pressure in the crankcase helps achieve that, (which can also be achieved by supercharging or turbo charging).
To get the best out of the padding it's desirable to increase the comp ratio and modify the inlet port so that it opens earlier when the piston uncovers it, giving a longer inlet period. A larger (jetted) carburettor is usually fitted.
Extreme race mods make the bike rather intractable so standard bikes are a compromise between achieving greatest power and best street tractability.
Many modern 2-strokes have fuel injection or induction direct from the carb into the crankcase via a reed valve in the crankcase.
It's a big subject..............

There's talk of the next gen F1 engines being directly injected 2 strokes.

I have wondered how rotary's would fare with modern lubricants/additives

 

[csd4t]

You are banging the wrong drum. Short sighted investors and incompetent Boards were the main culprits in my view. An engineer can only work within the constraints imposed by such entities. The 'Not Invented Here' syndrome also applied in many sectors. Much of British industry suffered from this effect, and still does...
I have lots of examples tucked away in my memories of 22 years in general management consultancy, but I think Royal Ordnance Leeds was about the worst example I encountered. It took them15 months to build one very unreliable tank! They also had 800 admin staff as opposed to 400 shop floor workers, and I use that term very loosely...

Strange that because I worked there as an apprentice and later in middle shop snagging. There were 120 apprentices alone and between 2500-3000 employees. Not sure which vehicle you refer to (I worked on Chieftain and later the very first Challenger versions, I certainly don't remember a 15 month build. It was then the MOD and produced armored vehicles for most of the middle east and the British Army. Maybe you refer to when the government sold it to Vickers who then run it into the ground to sell the land for housing.
I have a friend who is now responsible for the Challenger upgrades, he was there in the Vickers years, I'll ask him how many employees/admin at that time.

 

[John Barrett]

Strange that because I worked there as an apprentice and later in middle shop snagging. There were 120 apprentices alone and between 2500-3000 employees. Not sure which vehicle you refer to (I worked on Chieftain and later the very first Challenger versions, I certainly don't remember a 15 month build. It was then the MOD and produced armored vehicles for most of the middle east and the British Army. Maybe you refer to when the government sold it to Vickers who then run it into the ground to sell the land for housing.
I have a friend who is now responsible for the Challenger upgrades, he was there in the Vickers years, I'll ask him how many employees/admin at that time.

You are quite right about the Vickers era, early 1987. They had just bought it and their CEO took one look at the place and got PE Consulting Group involved in February in the shape of me and one Des Jones. I'd just come back from a 13 months assignment in Qatar, no holidays on my return as the job was urgent, so chilly Leeds was not welcome! We were there for seven months, dragging and kicking the factory management into the 20th Century. The Board were completely out of touch with the factory, the MRP system was a basket case, calculating the shop loadings on 'One week per op' irrespective of actual job times, so inventory was through the roof, the Purchasing Manager went out to lunch with suppliers most days, the foremen cherry picked the jobs despite all the shortages, and the rate fixers on the shop floor were corrupting all the machine programmes to create greater bonuses for the 'workers'. Many of the 800 admin staff worked in spider huts, and I could hear the folding of newspapers as I approached.... All this against a production rate of one tank per month. Some 400 of the admin staff were made redundant, but we left the shop floor largely alone. I personally persuaded the Directors to alter the shop load algorithm to three days per op, thus saving millions of pounds.

Any more questions please ask away. I'm the man in the shiny suit...

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[csd4t]

I was part of the snagging gang and was on the very first challenger (shah 1 4030) to move under it's own power. Went over the top of the handbrake test hill (close to where you are standing) for the Panorama TV sequence, also had the Shah of Iran and the Indian army general on board.
I volunteered to go to Iran but there was then the ayatolla overthrow and it all went belly up after that.
Vickers also bought into the British printing machine manufacturers (Crabtree's) and then proceeded to decimate that.
Off topic now so sorry to OP

 

[SIFTA SAM]

Have a read of this to understand why UK bike manufacturing along with the rest of our industry and transport received so little investment after WW2. Basically old men refused to give up former glories of empire and wasted the Marshal plan money, while we spent 7% of GDP on defence Germany and Japan spent zilch.

BBC - History - British History in depth: The Wasting of Britain's Marshall Aid

A lost opportunity, by Correlli Barnett

www.bbc.co.uk

The main threat during this period just after the war was a possible war with Russia. That is probably why we spent 7% of GDP on the military. The author for whatever reason tends to ignore this point? We probably did squander money, but defence was a priority, as shown by the necessity of the Berlin Airlift in1948?

And my 1951 125cc Francis Barnett never ever let me down.

 

[Sandyt]

Interesting statement from the original BSA Workshop Manual for my Rocket 3 - "Final Check". This is the instructions to dealers building a bike from the crate before delivery to the customer.

What went wrong

with the industry, apart from some appalling leadership, I like to sum up - "Gold plated Daimlers, and belt-driven lathes."

 

[Spriddler]

There's talk of the next gen F1 engines being directly injected 2 strokes.

I have wondered how rotary's would fare with modern lubricants/additives

An acquaintance has a Norton Rotary (aka The Rotatory) and although it's very smooth it seems to need a lot of attention.
It's disappointing that the rotary has had the rotor to cylinder sealing problems, since unlike the 4 stroke it doesn't have parts constantly reversing direction (e.g. pushrods, valves, pistons). I do love the thump of an old Brit long stroke single though.
It has always fascinated me that today's reciprocating engines (i.e. those having a piston reversing direction within a cylinder at every stroke) are in principle little changed from the first I.C.E. designs of around 150 or more years ago - steam engines even earlier. I suspect it was mechanical evolution rather than luck that that enduring design was found so early on.

 

[Molly A]

It was not just the Brits I had a Morini 350 sport that did six gearboxes in 1000 miles, turns out mismatched crankcases so someone somewhere had the same problem with the other halfs and following that( and how I wish I had kept it) a Lavaerda SF2 which between Fleetwood and Blackburn vibrated almost every bolt loose or off or baffles out of the exhaust and blew every bulb! As for the electrics"! another story altogether but they didn't half handle well!

A friend of mine had a Morini, pretty bike but the least reliable bike ever. Another friend had the very rare Moto Guzzi 750 S2, beautiful handling but with the worst electrics imaginable.My second bike was an old Honda 400-4... bullet proof, handled like a dream and kept me safe around London streets and weekend blasts to the coast, until I sold it and got GSX Suzuli ESD. Great bike but always lasted after a Ducati....

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[tonyidle]

You're absolutely correct, I had the right story, but the wrong name

Note to self: check before you post - your memory isn't what it was

You weren't wrong - Degner was how the Japanese obtained the expertise. I just thought Kaaden should get a mention . I remember Degner as the MZ works rider too.

 

[tonyidle]

Had one , great little bike needed de - coking quite often I did all the mods and it was a good stable ride

I had the Leader. I was travelling 20 miles to College every day at the time so the panniers & screen were great. My memory of it was that it handled a lot better than appearances would suggest. Pity about the brakes though. It finally died when a little end gave way. Funnily enough I was approached around 10 years ago by someone who'd heard I'd had one (back in the '60s!!) to rebuild his engine. Which I did. He'd originally had it done by a specialist who had forgotten to tighten the crank centre bolt.

 

[tonyidle]

The internal volume of the crankcase is reduced with strategically placed pads, thus increasing the primary compression ratio. Simple if one is an engineer!

Not so simple these days. There's plenty of room in a 'modern' two-stroke crankcase. Like a lot of early two-stroke tuning lore it's effectiveness has been disproven. One problem back then was the lack of computer modelling of the two-stroke cycle (in fact the lack of computers ) so a lot of what was developed experimentally subsequently proved to be of little value. A friend uses snowmobile engines for hovercraft propulsion. These are three cylinder water-cooled reed valve engines of 800cc - 900cc developing 150+bhp out of the box on siamesed exhausts feeding a cleverly-designed conventional-looking silencer. They run Mikuni carbs & their own ignition system. Mild tuning (and home-blown expansion chambers) takes them up to around 200hp. At that they're flexible with plenty of mid-range and a solid idle. They top out around 7000rpm - 8000rpm.

This is one of his - he builds the engines for his son Dan Turnbull:

<Broken link removed>

 

[Chipster]

I had the Leader. I was travelling 20 miles to College every day at the time so the panniers & screen were great. My memory of it was that it handled a lot better than appearances would suggest. Pity about the brakes though. It finally died when a little end gave way. Funnily enough I was approached around 10 years ago by someone who'd heard I'd had one (back in the '60s!!) to rebuild his engine. Which I did. He'd originally had it done by a specialist who had forgotten to tighten the crank centre bolt.

My Father restored this a few years ago. He had one in his younger days too. His brother had the Arrow. Still has it.

 

[Molly A]

My Father restored this a few years ago. He had one in his younger days too. His brother had the Arrow. Still has it.
View attachment 457603

Wow! Looks great!

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[TheTwoOfUs]

When you look back these were similar to the Vincent Black Knight and Black Prince. The styling pre-dates the Goldwings which became very successful, so the design ingenuity was there but the build quality was lacking.

 

[2GB Racing]

Talking about motorcycles very very sad news as the Austrian motorcycle museum has burnt out total destruction

 

[jongood]

My Father restored this a few years ago. He had one in his younger days too. His brother had the Arrow. Still has it.
View attachment 457603

Very tidy but can you still see it when its running

 

[Spriddler]

Not so simple these days. There's plenty of room in a 'modern' two-stroke crankcase. Like a lot of early two-stroke tuning lore it's effectiveness has been disproven. ........a lot of what was developed experimentally subsequently proved to be of little value.

I found little benefit after padding the c/case on my Villiers-engined Greeves scrambler back in the mid 60's. The carburation went to pot as well which I never did manage to sort out. I only did it as it was 'what you did' back in the day (bragging rights in the paddock ). In fact the standard engines were quite powerful enough to get at least a place but most folk did it hoping to compensate for lack of riding skill but the end result was that we just fell off at a faster speed.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

I found little benefit after padding the c/case on my Villiers-engined Greeves scrambler back in the mid 60's. The carburation went to pot as well which I never did manage to sort out. I only did it as it was 'what you did' back in the day (bragging rights in the paddock ). In fact the standard engines were quite powerful enough to get at least a place but most folk did it hoping to compensate for lack of riding skill but the end result was that we just fell off at a faster speed.

Was that the Starmaker engine?

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