You can park for 18 hours but can't sleep ?

[Barclaybasher]

Somebody has to pay for car park building.

I can't remember the last car park being built in Derby, what did happen was on-street parking moved from restrictions only to pay-to-park machines being installed (at great expense).

The high parking charges mean that only the streets right in the centre are used for parking leaving many streets empty of parked vehicles.

If it were just about 'traffic management' then the restrictions alone would work (as they had done previously)

It is just short-sighted money grabbing.............

 

[Deleted member 29692]

An example would be sexual activity with the blinds open

Lots of lay-bys around where that sort of thing is actively encouraged

 

[GJH]

I can't remember the last car park being built in Derby, what did happen was on-street parking moved from restrictions only to pay-to-park machines being installed (at great expense).

The high parking charges mean that only the streets right in the centre are used for parking leaving many streets empty of parked vehicles.

If it were just about 'traffic management' then the restrictions alone would work (as they had done previously)

It is just short-sighted money grabbing.............

It's a few years now since I visited Derby (several times) for events at Bridge Chapel House. I was able to park there or at Sowter Road but actually getting to and from those places was an experience (in the days before sat navs) that I never relished. I would have hated trying to find parking elsewhere in the city whether free or charged.

 

[Barclaybasher]

It's a few years now since I visited Derby (several times) for events at Bridge Chapel House. I was able to park there or at Sowter Road but actually getting to and from those places was an experience (in the days before sat navs) that I never relished. I would have hated trying to find parking elsewhere in the city whether free or charged.

Sorry you didn't get chance to see our newly refurbished Council House .... only cost £32 million

State of the art.....

You book appointments on line.... (NOT) ............ you have to go to the Council House and book the appointment on a terminal there, get a ticket giving you an appointment, return put your ticket number in another terminal - then you might be able to see someone

2 Journeys..... 2 parking charges

Local Government......don't you just love it...........



..

.......

 

[Jean-luc]

The legislation which governs parking and camping in Ireland is irrelevant to the UK, as is the legislation which governs parking and camping in any other EU country. Complaining that the UK should do something one way just because another country does it that way is pointless.

We have existing national legislation in this country which is perfectly adequate to cover both parking and camping (including camping in car parks where a genuine case can be made). The constructive course (and the only way forward) is to work within that legislation because it is highly unlikely that it will be changed just because a relatively few people complain.

Not quite.
UK & Ireland share much common legislation, but it's not just a matter of legislation alone.

Camping is not defined in either jurisdiction but parking is defined as to bring (a vehicle that one is driving) to a halt and leave it temporarily, typically in a car park or by the side of the road.

Then, one has the right to enjoy ones property, a right which has many times been upheld in court when tested and is the preserve of any democracy.

I believe the kernel of the matter is the actions of local authorities who seek to interfere with how we may or may not make use of or enjoy our own property.
If such local authorities provide vehicle parking it cannot be conditional on how a vehicle, parked in a manner prescribed, is occupied or in what manner its occupants behave, save where such behavior is offensive to members of the public who may witness such behavior.

In short, one may drink and eat in ones vehicle (having purchased from a fast food vendor or brought ones own pre-prepared food), may rest, sleep or listen to music, may prepare food within the limitations of the vehicle (it may simply be preparing a cup-a-soup with water from a flask), have a row, shave, apply make-up or brush one teeth.
The whole thing of trying to prevent motorhome owners from using their vehicles in a manner for which they were designed is in my opinion an attempt to serve the interests of caravan and camping site owners and operators.
We have first hand accounts of such people/organisations winding up local politicians like clockwork soldiers and sending the off to do their bidding.

It is only well informed counter arguments which will win the day, but don't wait for any of The Clubs.

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[GJH]

Camping is not defined in either jurisdiction

Wrong, at least as far as the UK goes.
The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 covers all off road land. See Section 1.
As regards highways see the results of my enquiries Here.

The rest of the post may well be correct in Ireland but we are talking about the UK here.

 

[Jean-luc]

Wrong, at least as far as the UK goes.
The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 covers all off road land. See Section 1.
As regards highways see the results of my enquiries Here.

The rest of the post may well be correct in Ireland but we are talking about the UK here.

We do have the same legislation here which controls the use of land with regard to the setting up and operation of caravan parking, but like the UK legislation quoted it does not define what 'camping' is.

Attempts to deny one the full use and enjoyment of their property is what is at stake here. I notice in your inquiries you mention the use of vehicles with sleeper cabs for the purpose for which they were designed, noting that high end sleeper cabs can provide the same functionality as a motorhome albeit in a more confined space there can be no difference between the occupier of both when using their vehicle for its designed purpose.
I also failed to find any reference to overnight sleeping in vehicles being mentioned in The Highway Code as being illegal. If such regulation was to exist every commercial vehicle driver observing The Driving Time Directive would be open to prosecution as they observe the required rest breaks.

We should not loose sight of the fact that in The UK like Ireland there are powerful vested interests who seek to influence local administrations to enact of weak and often unenforceable bye-laws with the aim of creating obstacles to those of us who wish to not use formal Caravan and Camping sites.

It is most unfortunate the, unlike our counterparts on Mainland Europe, we do not have strong representative organisations to champion our causes.
Those representing site owners, CL's and CS's certainly have taken the high ground.

 

[GJH]

We do have the same legislation here which controls the use of land with regard to the setting up and operation of caravan parking, but like the UK legislation quoted it does not define what 'camping' is.

I suggest you read S1 of the Act again.
for the purposes of human habitation
Clear enough now?

 

[BillyS]

These rules and regulations were thought up by people who had vested interests , i.e. landowners, campsite owners,etc. If it's good enough on the continent, to welcome and embrace Motorhome owners, then it should be good enough over here. All this codswallop about Regulation *** so and so, Subsection **** so and so, blah, blah blah, is all a load of B******s . It is just to protcet the interests of the few, to make it a misery for the many. That is why I am off to France shortly, for my twice annual jaunt accross the Water. Money well spent, where I will be welcomed with open arms, and don't feel ripped off.
After all, we are still in the EU (as far as I know !!!! ) and their regulations regarding Camping, Parking, overnight Stops, etc should be applied here equally.That's what we pay our Membership Fees to the EU for, or am I mistaken??? Laybys, open ground, common land, etc belongs to the " People" and NOT the Councils, as many people believe. This applies also to Beaches. The Council does not own these Properties. They purely manage them.. Enough said. This discussion really winds me up, every time I read about it. Roll on France.

 

[BillyS]

People should not forget, that Councillors, the same as MP's are our Servants, and not our Masters. This means, that they can be voted out, as well as in.

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[tonyidle]

These rules and regulations were thought up by people who had vested interests , i.e. landowners, campsite owners,etc. If it's good enough on the continent, to welcome and embrace Motorhome owners, then it should be good enough over here. All this codswallop about Regulation *** so and so, Subsection **** so and so, blah, blah blah, is all a load of B******s . It is just to protcet the interests of the few, to make it a misery for the many. That is why I am off to France shortly, for my twice annual jaunt accross the Water. Money well spent, where I will be welcomed with open arms, and don't feel ripped off.
After all, we are still in the EU (as far as I know !!!! ) and their regulations regarding Camping, Parking, overnight Stops, etc should be applied here equally.That's what we pay our Membership Fees to the EU for, or am I mistaken??? Laybys, open ground, common land, etc belongs to the " People" and NOT the Councils, as many people believe. This applies also to Beaches. The Council does not own these Properties. They purely manage them.. Enough said. This discussion really winds me up, every time I read about it. Roll on France.

Laybys are part of the highway and are not the same as common land.

 

[GJH]

After all, we are still in the EU (as far as I know !!!! ) and their regulations regarding Camping, Parking, overnight Stops, etc should be applied here equally.That'st we pay our Membership Fees to the EU for, or am I mistaken???

Why? Legislation differs in EU countries in all sorts of ways. Why should "regulations regarding Camping, Parking, overnight Stops, etc" be applied here equally when other regulations/legislation are not?

Laybys, open ground, common land, etc belongs to the " People" and NOT the Councils, as many people believe. This applies also to Beaches. The Council does not own these Properties. They purely manage them..

As @tonyidle said, laybys are part of the highway. The land will be owned by either local or central government depending on what type of highway.
As regards non-highway land, all land in the UK is owned by some body (natural or corporate, including central and local government). Some common land is in private ownership. Land ownership and rights to use land are different things, the latter being subject to legislation (which is not codswallop whether anyone likes to think so or not).

 

[Jean-luc]

I suggest you read S1 of the Act again.
for the purposes of human habitation
Clear enough now?

Ok I've read it again and it is similar to our legislation covering use of land as a caravan site.

In your regulations S 1 clearly states it concerns itself with Prohibition of use of land as caravan site without site licence.
S 1(4) states In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed

When a piece of legislation comes before the courts one of the principals applied is what was in the minds of the legislature when the legislation was drafted, in other words what wrong or mischief was being addressed. It is clear from your legislation on the matter, as it is clear from ours, that the section concerns itself with the prohibition of unauthorised camping grounds.

S 1(4) makes it clear that what is of concern is the stationing of a caravan for human habitation which infers that the caravan is not intended to be moved, in fact to move such a caravan the assistance of a motor vehicle would be required.

There is the world of difference between pitching up a tent or caravan on land which not designated for such activity and parking a motor vehicle (bringing it to a temporary halt) in a space provided for such an activity.

I remain unconvinced that regulations concerning themselves with the regulation of caravan and camping parks have any bearing on the parking of motorhomes on the public highway or on vehicle parking areas.
Any external activity associated with a parked motorhome (as with any other category of motor vehicle) such as emission of fluids, creation of litter or any other occurrence which impacts on the environment in a negative manner can easily be dealt with under specific Acts in place to control such occurrences

Finally, has any one been prosecuted under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960
for staying in a motorhome overnight in a parking place.

 

[GJH]

Ok I've read it again and it is similar to our legislation covering use of land as a caravan site.

In your regulations S 1 clearly states it concerns itself with Prohibition of use of land as caravan site without site licence.
S 1(4) states In this Part of this Act the expression “caravan site” means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed

When a piece of legislation comes before the courts one of the principals applied is what was in the minds of the legislature when the legislation was drafted, in other words what wrong or mischief was being addressed. It is clear from your legislation on the matter, as it is clear from ours, that the section concerns itself with the prohibition of unauthorised camping grounds.

S 1(4) makes it clear that what is of concern is the stationing of a caravan for human habitation which infers that the caravan is not intended to be moved, in fact to move such a caravan the assistance of a motor vehicle would be required.

There is the world of difference between pitching up a tent or caravan on land which not designated for such activity and parking a motor vehicle (bringing it to a temporary halt) in a space provided for such an activity.

I remain unconvinced that regulations concerning themselves with the regulation of caravan and camping parks have any bearing on the parking of motorhomes on the public highway or on vehicle parking areas.
Any external activity associated with a parked motorhome (as with any other category of motor vehicle) such as emission of fluids, creation of litter or any other occurrence which impacts on the environment in a negative manner can easily be dealt with under specific Acts in place to control such occurrences

Finally, has any one been prosecuted under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960
for staying in a motorhome overnight in a parking place.

I refer you back to my post #66 above. Highways are covered by highways legislation. All other land is covered by the 1960 Act, including vehicle parking areas.

Restrictions in parking places are defined in legal orders. Thus, action would not be taken using the 1960 Act but for breaching the legal order. See post #11 above.

EDIT. See also posts #14 and #51 as they also contain relevant answers.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Of course one then has to agree on what is meant, or is defined by the term "human habitation".
My personal interpretation, and googling definitions, it would suggest overnight sleeping and/or making a cuppa wouldn't be considered to be " habitation".

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[Barclaybasher]

I refer you back to my post #66 above. Highways are covered by highways legislation. All other land is covered by the 1960 Act, including vehicle parking areas.
Restrictions in parking places are defined in legal orders. Thus, action would not be taken using the 1960 Act but for breaching the legal order. See post #11 above.

I know that you know your stuff Graham.... and you might get fed up re-telling us about the regulations about parking/camping

The use of height barriers and notices are probably going to increase, but with the numbers of MHs increasing also, how will that help anyone?..... where are we all going to park, let alone camp?

Do you, or anyone on here know if any action has been taken against individual motorhomers, apart from Huttoft ?............. moved on or fined


..

 

[GJH]

I know that you know your stuff Graham.... and you might get fed up re-telling us about the regulations about parking/camping

The use of height barriers and notices are probably going to increase, but with the numbers of MHs increasing also, how will that help anyone?..... where are we all going to park, let alone camp?

Do you, or anyone on here know if any action has been taken against individual motorhomers, apart from Huttoft ?............. moved on or fined


..

I don't get fed up Vic, honest -
I don't have details of any individual cases of fines/moving on but they could always be obtained from councils. Drop an FoI request in to Scarborough, North Yorkshire and Suffolk Coastal councils (likely examples) to ask how many they have processed.

As regards where we can park, the situation has improved over the last 8 and a half years since I started the web site and promoted awareness - though when I made my last mass contact of councils some 18 months ago there were still some who said I was the only person (or one of very few) to actually ask about MH parking in their borough.

The long term strategy has to be constructive dialogue demonstrating to councils both the demand for and the desirability of providing facilities.