Working Full Timers or Itinerants in UK

[MALLARD]

Well Weejockie , you really are sad .We am full-timing & when we use CLs and CC sites ,we always abide by the rules .
Do you think that the Caravan club would refuse entry to anybody who has been on the site for 28 days ,then off site for 2 and returns for another 28 days..................... come on ,grow up and get a life !!

 

[breeks]

ah hope your no scottish wee man wee dont dae things like that.:Sad:

 

[JJ]

Hi everyone... hope you are all well and happy...

now, back to the OP...

I was wondering a couple of things Weejockey...

Firstly, did these "full timers" cause you any problems? Were they noisy? Parked too close? Were their "barby" fumes blowing into your motorhome?

Secondly, do you actually have problems getting onto CLs because of the full-timers on it or is this just a worry for some possible time in the future?

JJ

PS. As a full-timer I promise never to take up a pitch that you need, sir. I don't use sites...

PPS. I hate it when those pesky truck drivers fill up the laybys I want to park in but do you know what? I accept it as part of the life I lead and I go and find somewhere else.

 

[Rainbowchaser]

Hmnnn. Not many responses from fulltimers.

Me, the wife and girlfriend are on a really nice site, been on it for years. No worries.
These recreational characters what turn up for a fortnight every year are a pain in the ass. Twice this week I've had to move a couple of scrap tractor units and buses what I was cutting up so they can pitch up. I've locked up my oxy-acetylene cutting gear cos you can't trust these weekend travellers. They'll have yer levelling blocks away before you can blink. Oh, and the wife had just finished polishing the milk churns when one caravan outfit backed into them. Bloody cheek. She let a couple of lurchers off their strings so they could go and poo by their steps and sent a few of our fourteen kids over to make a nuisance of themselves. She put a couple of curses on em too. Then these herberts had the nerve to complain to anyone who'd listen, about these tinkers, who don't pay taxes or anyfink and breed like catholics on Viagra.
Still, when they've gorn back home to their council tax bill and the dead end job, I'll be laughin' all the way to the scrapyard.

'Ere, wanna buy some nice dolly pegs moosh? Gawd bless ya mister, you got a lucky face.
Gotta go; all this chrome aint gonna polish itself you know, and Argos are delivering the new plasma in a bit.
[FONT=&quot]Be lucky.




[/FONT]

 

[John & Joan]

All well and good but I can see a day coming when you cannot get on a cheap CL because its full of full timing /Itinerants and it will be a sad day. The law is VERY CLEAR CLs are for RECREATION, not for living on. Too much abuse by full timers and we will lose them:Angry::Angry::Angry::Angry: I for one, will report to Defra any site that I think is breaking the 28 day rule, you should too

It is the club that issues the exemption to the CL that needs to be informed.

If they allow this practice of exceeding the limit set by Paragraph 5. They stand the chance of having their ability to issue any exemptions removed by DEFRA (Natural England).

That said some clubs seem to be turning a blind eye and DEFRA are not interested in taking any action.

Ive not seen any proof they are living there full time
Just cos the unit is sited dont mean they areoh:

You are only allowed to site a caravan on a CL for a maximum of 28 days at a time. Any other caravans on adjacent land (family use, agricultural workers etc.) are separate from that allocated as exempted under the clubs certificate.

There is nothing in the law that says you have to occupy it continually. The club put its own regulations about occupation, with the site owner.

When I was not at work, my time was spent on recreation in some way or another, so where is the problem?.

Being retired we full time in our Motor home now and use CLs/CSs, Club sites, Aires, Municipal Camping sites and wild camp. We move sites regularly. When I was at college I also stayed in my caravan on a CL. I moved it regularly going home or on field work courses.

I lived for 8 years(24/7) in a caravan, as Warden of a site. I then did another year on another site.

We have been house sitting for the last month for family members and cannot wait to get back on the road at the end of this month. We are still sleeping in the van, as we both feel claustrophobic at night in a house. The bed in our motor home is firmer and in my opinion more comfortable.

John

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[Larrynwin]

 

[Jim]

I found that pretty CL in Oxford

 

[motor roamin]

Hi all

I cannot beleive this post

Someone who is working paying tax growing his own food is then called a Itinerant.

These people are getting on with their lives and from what I have read doing no harm to any one.

I do have a problem with "Itinerants" they have no consideration for any one, or any ones property, they will park any where and leave a lot of rubbish and damage behind for someone else to clean up.

If they parked on grass verges and left the site as they found it and didn't nick my diesel then hey I wouldn't have a problem with them, I know a few genuine gipsys and they are no problem what so ever in fact if you asked for help you would get it.

Showman travel a lot live in caravans fivers motorhomes etc. the fair set up every year on a park opposite our old yard, we never had a problem with diesel being nicked or damage and the park was always left clean despite the home dwelling patrons who couldn't be bothered to take their rubbish home or put it in the bins provided, it wasn't the council who cleaned it up but the showmen.

We don't know there circumstances as many have said on this post, when I was young and couldn't afford a house and only just managed to run my car to go to work, a farmer very kindly allowed me to put a old caravan in a field behind a hedge that was home for 18 months.
that gave me the chance to save and get a start in life, through hard work and many long hours (still doing them at nearly 60) I now live in a very nice home worth a small fortune, have 5 cars and a £70k motorhome on my drive.

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but live and let live if they are not interfering with any one else. You never know what cards life may deal and you may want a site to live on yourself, I hope you are lucky as I was and find that farmer.

All the best Rick

 

[motor roamin]

I found that pretty CL in Oxford

Now that i have a problem with

Rick

 

[John & Joan]

Hi all

These people are getting on with their lives and from what I have read doing no harm to any one.

I do have a problem with "Itinerants" they have no consideration for any one, or any ones property, they will park any where and leave a lot of rubbish and damage behind for someone else to clean up.

If they parked on grass verges and left the site as they found it and didn't nick my diesel then hey I wouldn't have a problem with them, I know a few genuine gipsys and they are no problem what so ever in fact if you asked for help you would get it.

Many councils set up travelers sites but they didn't really cater for travellers but expected them to settle on the plots. As a result we still have genuine travellers living on the roadside because there is no provision of sites for them.

When I first set up the site I lived on for 8 years I had a full 47kg gas bottle stolen from my caravan, by residents of a nearby travellers site. (Council site for resident travellers). If I had seen the "gentleman" I wouldn't have attempted to stop him as he was able to climb 4 bar wooden fence with the bottle on his back. I know this from the footprints left in the snow. This was before the security fencing was put in.

When I was on the CL at college, there was a layby nearby that was regularly occupied by travellers. They caused no problems and the place was kept and left spotless. Then another group came and started breaking cars and burning rubbish. They overstayed their welcome and the council evicted them. This resulted in that place being blocked off to everyone.

There are good and bad in all walks of life. Live and let live.

John

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[Colin and Jaen Andrews]

Fulltimers

Hi
We are full timers and yep 28 day rule is pain - organising around the 2 days upheaval - we knew that when we went full time and deal with it. Yes would be brilliant to move when we want to:thumb: not when system says we must.

Never had a problem booking on any site - the only problem is our length (34ft) sharp intake of breath from most sites - those who say no you wont fit - we have looked at them and we would have no prob accessing and would fit they just panic.:shout: I would think there are very few sites that are 'full' during June to Aug. On paper maybe but a lot of bookings dont turn up.

Why do we fulltime - like a lot of full timers personal issues - if you dont know what they are dont judge - would we like to have des res somewhere and RV and choice - possibly yes - but without the £££££££ to support it - no chance anyway - just the luxury of having somewhere if health made RV lifestyle impossible perhaps.

Both of us have worked all our life and our 'personal issues' mean we now cant and dont but over the years have always paid our way and the system - dont get any benefits and survive on couple of private pension. Get miffed everytime they alter the retirement age for the state pension but hopefully will get there before it moves againoh: (Both late late 50's)

We so love the freedom and lifestyle it gives us - our choice. Made so many friends of other full timers - likeminded people - magic. Would I have done this years ago - OH YES.:thumb::thumb:

Yes I grow tomatoes - herbs - peppers etc etc - they stay discretely on site while we are offsite - no problem.

Life is toooooooooo short - do whatever makes you smile, laugh, want to get up in the morning etc etc

Yes I have issues with the 'mess' left by travelling groups - inconsiderate and no need.

OK burbling over
Jaen x

 

[slobadoberbob]

well said

Hi
We are full timers and yep 28 day rule is pain - organising around the 2 days upheaval - we knew that when we went full time and deal with it. Yes would be brilliant to move when we want to:thumb: not when system says we must.

Never had a problem booking on any site - the only problem is our length (34ft) sharp intake of breath from most sites - those who say no you wont fit - we have looked at them and we would have no prob accessing and would fit they just panic.:shout: I would think there are very few sites that are 'full' during June to Aug. On paper maybe but a lot of bookings dont turn up.

Why do we fulltime - like a lot of full timers personal issues - if you dont know what they are dont judge - would we like to have des res somewhere and RV and choice - possibly yes - but without the £££££££ to support it - no chance anyway - just the luxury of having somewhere if health made RV lifestyle impossible perhaps.

Both of us have worked all our life and our 'personal issues' mean we now cant and dont but over the years have always paid our way and the system - dont get any benefits and survive on couple of private pension. Get miffed everytime they alter the retirement age for the state pension but hopefully will get there before it moves againoh: (Both late late 50's)

We so love the freedom and lifestyle it gives us - our choice. Made so many friends of other full timers - likeminded people - magic. Would I have done this years ago - OH YES.:thumb::thumb:

Yes I grow tomatoes - herbs - peppers etc etc - they stay discretely on site while we are offsite - no problem.

Life is toooooooooo short - do whatever makes you smile, laugh, want to get up in the morning etc etc

Yes I have issues with the 'mess' left by travelling groups - inconsiderate and no need.

OK burbling over
Jaen x

Glad you can give an insight view of life as a full timer. Dont give up on the dream:thumb:

Bob

 

[Colin and Jaen Andrews]

The Dream

We will never never give up on our dream - Full timing is brought on because of a million reasons but once there - for us bring it on - those who are not sure or are there because!!!! will eventually find another world - or join.

Just understanding and compassion and patience or tolerance etc etc please

Just talk to full timers - they may or may not tell you the reasons why but hey what fantastic people :thumb:

Dream the dream - live the dream - look for the dream - its out there if you can or want to find it - or great world for a pit stop while the real world turns upside down around you.:helptitanic:

Love xxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Landy lover]

We full time for many reasons that I will not go into here - but if we did not it is unlikely that we would ever be able to wind down to retirement and we are both past retiring age - when travelling we seldom stay on one site for more than a week. We have met many full timers in the 2 years we have been full timing and I can honestly say they were all very happy and very friendly. And more important every one has a different reason for full timing. By staying on CL's they are in many cases giving enough of a reason for the owner to keep it open as they are getting some income from the investment they have put into the site. There are many sites that close each year due to lack of use - so reflect a little - were you able to return to that site because that family were there. From your post you were certainly not excluded from the site by their presence. You did not mention anything about them being noisy /rude / messy etc. You have passed an opinion based on a snapshot in time when you were there without investigation or seeking a reason and quite a few very valid reasons had been aired on here so far

May I suggest that you live and let live and get a good hobby that occupies your mind instead of spending time involving yourself in others business - A local farmer friend had a CL - it was fairly popular and had maybe two or 3 units on a couple of times a week - not a large income @ £7 per night and hardly paid for the diesel to keep the site mown but he was relaxed about it and felt he was offering a service - a couple stayed on there and the chap had a fall and broke his leg - wife could not drive and so he allowed them to stay on for about 7 weeks whilst all healed - he also ran the wife to hospital every night whilst her husband was in and susbsequently took her shopping once a week so all in all a good samaritan. Some weeks later had a visit from the C&CC to say that they had a report of 28 day rule infringement and gave him a warning that a further breach would involve action. His reaction to this was to shut the site permanantly the very next day his feeling was if there are such petty minded individuals about he wanted nothing more to do with it or them.

So my message to you is be very carefull with your actions you may well find that you are the loser - few if any CLs make real money most are run as a hobby - or as a small part of a larger business and most certainly would not lose a lot of sleep if they had to shut it down.

There is a lot of truth in the old adage ' cutting off your nose to spite your face'

 

[weejocky]

Plenty of posts here have made me re-think my position somewhat so thanks for that. :Blush: I have spoken to the CL Owner this morning he is a nice chap and I will not be reporting him. He agreed that the fulltimers need to tidy the plot a bit and not make it so obvious they are living there or he appreciates that he might be reported.

Still, even after all your jibes at me, my concerns are still there, the CL network is for recreation purposes and not designed for living; it is against the law. I do forsee a time, as more and more people choose to go fulltime (many out of necessity) that many of the best of these recreational stopovers will be blighted by fulltimers, or even worse, if the abuse is widespread the government will step in and make big changes to the act or remove the CL exemption altogether :Sad:

Jock

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[Diabalo]

Plenty of posts here have made me re-think my position somewhat so thanks for that. :Blush: I have spoken to the CL Owner this morning he is a nice chap and I will not be reporting him. He agreed that the fulltimers need to tidy the plot a bit and not make it so obvious they are living there or he appreciates that he might be reported.

Still, even after all your jibes at me, my concerns are still there, the CL network is for recreation purposes and not designed for living; it is against the law. I do forsee a time, as more and more people choose to go fulltime (many out of necessity) that many of the best of these recreational stopovers will be blighted by fulltimers, or even worse, if the abuse is widespread the government will step in and make big changes to the act or remove the CL exemption altogether :Sad:

Jock

Jock

It's great to see you have a change of heart and in this instance let sleeping dogs lie.:thumb: Hopefully the CL owner will take notice of what you have said and be a little bit more careful in the future. I agree it would be a blow to lose all the CLs but I truly can't see that happening.

 

[Jim]

I think that there are presently a max of around 4500 CLs in the country, In my experience the idyllic rural ones rarely have full timers on site.

But that is not many CLs in a country where new motorhomes are being registered in their thousands every year and with the number of those fulltiming increasing, coupled with those full timers returning from the continent. I suppose Jocks prophecy could come true and all the very nice ones could end up with a fulltimer on site, but I don't think that would be happening any time soon or even in my lifetime, and even then, there would still be four other slots for Jock to choose from Anyway, in my experience that full timer you meet on CLs normally has all the good info for the area and is more likeley to watch over your possesions rather than nick them

 

[scotjimland]

Plenty of posts here have made me re-think my position somewhat so thanks for that. :Blush: I have spoken to the CL Owner this morning he is a nice chap and I will not be reporting him. He agreed that the fulltimers need to tidy the plot a bit and not make it so obvious they are living there or he appreciates that he might be reported.

Still, even after all your jibes at me, my concerns are still there, the CL network is for recreation purposes and not designed for living; it is against the law. I do forsee a time, as more and more people choose to go fulltime (many out of necessity) that many of the best of these recreational stopovers will be blighted by fulltimers, or even worse, if the abuse is widespread the government will step in and make big changes to the act or remove the CL exemption altogether :Sad:

Jock

you have mentioned recreational in several posts , how do you define it ?

As I understand it's "any activity done for enjoyment while not working" ..

many fulltimers don't work but are simply enjoying their hobby, the law may put a time limit on how long you may stay on a site but not on how long you enjoy the activity ..

The 28day rule is a good one, just as there is a 48hr rule on French aires .. but it's seldom enforced, it's there to give the owner or the council the legal right to restrict or prevent guests outstaying their welcome .. ie , the right to evict

I'm glad you had change of heart .. live and let live , their are enough official busy bodies already without us helping them out ..

 

[cornishaich]

Plenty of posts here have made me re-think my position somewhat so thanks for that. :Blush: I have spoken to the CL Owner this morning he is a nice chap and I will not be reporting him. He agreed that the fulltimers need to tidy the plot a bit and not make it so obvious they are living there or he appreciates that he might be reported.

Still, even after all your jibes at me, my concerns are still there, the CL network is for recreation purposes and not designed for living; it is against the law. I do forsee a time, as more and more people choose to go fulltime (many out of necessity) that many of the best of these recreational stopovers will be blighted by fulltimers, or even worse, if the abuse is widespread the government will step in and make big changes to the act or remove the CL exemption altogether :Sad:

Jock

Hi Jock
I think you should be lauded for first ,posting the thread and secondly, for understanding the various other posters who disagreed with you and thirdly for pointing out the rules and sticking by your principals.

Harry

 

[barryd]

Nice one for the change of heart!

I really cant see it happening to be honest so i dont think there is anything to worry about.

Im currently on the Isle of Arran and been wilding here since Saturday. I didnt realise but our battery charger from the engine wasnt working and the battery went flat(ish) yesterday after 6 days so we have just turfed up on the only CL on the island to get a charge. Lucky for us we got on no problem otherwise heaven forbid I would have had to go on a campsite which is just not on! Long may there be CL's!

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[rainbow chasers]

Some cl's do have planning and licences for all year round camping - these are exempt from the 28 day law, but they do have a limit between 8 and 11 months for seasonal/full timers.

I have been to CL's where there are an abundance of travellers, which the old wilding law applies - if you don't feel comfortable - move on to the next.

I would rather they were on proper, maintained sites such as these than on a car park in your local school/supermarket etc - so have no issues with them doing so. We all have to live somewhere, and when we are the fleeting visitors, we cannot make demands.

The sites that take on these travellers do so to survive the winter months - it means the sites will be better equipped and maintained, where normal tourers like ourselves would only stay seasonally for a week or two. The full timers give them a steady income to continue, cover licence fees and expand. They may not always cater for full timers - some it is just a means to an end whilst they grow.

Well done on the change of heart though, sometimes it does take a discussion to realise the full story - which is what forums are all about!

 

[scotjimland]

Some cl's do have planning and licences for all year round camping - these are exempt from the 28 day law, !

are you absolutely sure about that ?

Not saying your wrong, I'v just never heard of that rule and if correct do you know where the regs are or how to apply for the exemption ?

my friends with the CL would be very interested

 

[Jim]

Its common knowledge that you cannot stay on a CL for more that 28 days. But I just wasted half an hour reading this http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1960/cukpga_19600062_en_1

Can someone point me to where the law actually says that you may not stay over 28 days on a CL. Am I missing something or is this just an old interpretation of the law by Defra. The act mentions exemptions but does not put limits on them, not that i can find anyway, maybe someone cleverer and with more patience might find it

 

[wizzer59]

where is this place anyway sounds just like what I'm after

 

[barryd]

Im sure I read that the law is 28 days. Could it be however that this is a rule enforced by the CC? therefore some CL's may not be too keen to break it in case they get kicked out. I know for a fact though that quite a few CL's allow more than 5 vans and clearly one or two dont give a hoot about the 28 day rule thing. Some however I have found are quite strict with the rules.

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[Jim]

I have written to Defra today asking where the 28 day rule comes from. Keen to point out that we are not interested in licensing them for longer stays but would like clarification so we can pass this onto new CFL owners.

However, my suspicion is that it is a CC policy which Defra just adopted and passed on to others as the law. The Act mentions numbers but not length of stay. The club like the CC or Fun can place any type of restriction and remove the exemption at will so if CC says 28 days then you must comply.

The interesting bit would come when natural England refused to grant Para 5 exemption to a club because they allowed their members longer stays than 28 days.

28 days does seem reasonable duration for most recreational stays, but plenty of retirees like to stay for long periods so longer stays are not uncommon, and unless someone comes up with some legislation i have not seen, then stays over 28 days won't be against the law. We'll see.

 

[John & Joan]

I have written to Defra today asking where the 28 day rule comes from. Keen to point out that we are not interested in licensing them for longer stays but would like clarification so we can pass this onto new CFL owners.

However, my suspicion is that it is a CC policy which Defra just adopted and passed on to others as the law. The Act mentions numbers but not length of stay. The club like the CC or Fun can place any type of restriction and remove the exemption at will so if CC says 28 days then you must comply.

The interesting bit would come when natural England refused to grant Para 5 exemption to a club because they allowed their members longer stays than 28 days.

28 days does seem reasonable duration for most recreational stays, but plenty of retirees like to stay for long periods so longer stays are not uncommon, and unless someone comes up with some legislation i have not seen, then stays over 28 days won't be against the law. We'll see.

Hi Jim

I took this up with them regarding paragraph 4 sites.

The Big Two and ACCEO got together with the solicitors from DEFRA and agreed to limit the lenght of use that Holiday sites could be used for. This was then applied to all exempted organisations. There was nothing in the Act that limited the use to 28days. DEFRA then Natural England in the letter granting the exempt staus to us put a condition in that letter that we agree to limit the stay on such sites to a maximum of 28 days.
Much of this legislation has been enforced this way.

The only place I can find reference to this is in the Natural England guidance notes.​

In particular, we have agreed with the major caravan organisations, including The Association of Caravan and Camping Exempted Organisations (ACCEO) that we would expect that an organisation would limit its occupation of a site to no more than 28 days on the site, at any one time.

There is nothing in the 1960 Act that says 28 day limit. Only that the site is for a maximum of 5 van at any one time.

There may be something in this:
Part 5 Class A of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 ("the 1995 Order") permits the use of land as a touring caravan site where a caravan exemption certificate has been issued.

This is the clause that exempts us from having to seek planning permission.

Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960​

FIRST SCHEDULE



Sites occupied and supervised by exempted organisations

4.​

Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land which is occupied by an organisation which holds for the time being a certificate of exemption granted under paragraph 12 of this Schedule (hereinafter referred to as an exempted organisation) if the use is for purposes of recreation and is under the supervision of the organisation.

Sites approved by exempted organisations​

5.

(l) Subject

​

to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land as respects which there is in force a certificate issued under this paragraph by an exempted organisation if not more than five caravans are at the time stationed for the purposes of human habitation on the land to which the certificate relates.​

(2) ​

For the purposes of this paragraph an exempted organisation may issue

as respects any land a certificate stating that the land has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its members for the purposes of recreation.​

(3) ​

The certificate shall be issued to the occupier of the land to which it relates, and the organisation shall send particulars to the Minister of all certificates •issued by the organisation under this paragraph.

(4)
A certificate issued by an exempted organisation under this paragraph
shall specify the date on which it is to come into force and the period for which it is to continue in force, being a period not exceeding one year.​

Meetings

organised by exempted organisations

6. ​

​

​

Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall

not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is under the supervision of an exempted organisation and is in pursuance of arrangements made by that organisation for a meeting for its members lasting not more than five days.​

​

​

​

John



​

 

[John & Joan]

Some cl's do have planning and licences for all year round camping - these are exempt from the 28 day law, but they do have a limit between 8 and 11 months for seasonal/full timers.

I have been to CL's where there are an abundance of travellers, which the old wilding law applies - if you don't feel comfortable - move on to the next.

I would rather they were on proper, maintained sites such as these than on a car park in your local school/supermarket etc - so have no issues with them doing so. We all have to live somewhere, and when we are the fleeting visitors, we cannot make demands.

The sites that take on these travellers do so to survive the winter months - it means the sites will be better equipped and maintained, where normal tourers like ourselves would only stay seasonally for a week or two. The full timers give them a steady income to continue, cover licence fees and expand. They may not always cater for full timers - some it is just a means to an end whilst they grow.

Well done on the change of heart though, sometimes it does take a discussion to realise the full story - which is what forums are all about!

In general the BIG clubs will not allow a CL site adjacent to a licenced site.

There are some that have fought this and managed to keep a CL when they have obtained permission for a licenced site. The site has to be clearly separated from the existing CL by a fence or hedge. and must not share the disposal facilities with the CL site.

A CL would not be granted adjacent to an existing licenced site.

The 8 or 11 months will be a limit set by the Local Authority in it's licence for the site. CLs can be operated 12 months of the year.

John

 

[Jim]

Hi John, I saw that mention of 28 days, but that is clearly in reference to para 4. Para 5, as you say makes no mention.

Defra and the CC cannot make the law even with a good solicitor, but Defra can ultimately withdraw a clubs permission to issue exemptions if they allowed stays over 28 days. I suspect you would win an appeal against it, but you'd have to have deep pockets to do so.

That said, I'm more happy with the 28 day rule and suspect the vast majority of CL owners and users are too. We will be issuing strict instructions about 28 day maximum stays on our CFLs. There are plenty of 365 day licensed sites around for those that need them.

 

[slobadoberbob]

Human Rights Act may apply

Defra and the CC cannot make the law even with a good solicitor, but Defra can ultimately withdraw a clubs permission to issue exemptions if they allowed stays over 28 days. I suspect you would win an appeal against it, but you'd have to have deep pockets to do so.

.

Jim

I agree solicitors and Defra cannot make law. only parliment and some judge made law will win out, but you do have statutory instruments and that is the way DEFA works in applying the rules and regulations. Back door approach to the law.

It does not mean it can trample the Human Rights Act and would be subject to judicial review if it pulled a CC or others rights to issue licences with out very good legal grounds. Very complex law area and while I have read what various parties have said I would caution you that it is not as clear cut as you might think.

Bob

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