Victron Smart charger how's yours?

[Lenny HB]

. A solid surface, suitable for the weight and dimensions of the product must beavailable (e.g., concrete, or masonry).

The 3000 is flipping heavy 18kg even the 2000 is 16kg.

 

[autorouter]

I think it's the way the cooling is designed. There are metal heat sinks with fins for the working electronic components. These work best when air can flow freely along the fins. Since hot air rises, the best cooling is when the fins are vertical. However if that's not possible then forcing the airflow using a couple of computer-style fans will have the same effect, as CamperManLez has described.

Or buy an IP65 charger that can be mounted any road up.

 

[Conal]

Lenny HB and BDM I am certainly not an expert, in fact I struggle to understand the technical aspects of the charging process, but if you Google Victron Multicharger 2 installation orientation, on the Victron Web Site, you will find that Peter Kennedy, an installer, states that the Inverter Charges can be installed horizontally or vertically, for optimal cooling vertically is preferred. Victron state that they are grateful that Peter has allowed them to reproduce his guidance on their site.
Lenny HB I have always looked to your posts for expert advice but, in this instance, I feel that your comments wrongly accuse AJM of making a basic error and of being untrustworthy. Others on this forum may draw unwarranted conclusions from these comments. Surely, in this case, AJM have decided that the orientation of the inverter/charger is acceptable within the confines of the under seat storage. It may not be optimal but it is acceptable.

 

[BDM]

My Multiplus ll 3000 has been on its back horizontal for the last three years with no problems…

 

[AdrianChen]

I don't think you will necessarily notice problems (with the Multiplus) if the install ventilation and orientation are not good, I have only been involved in a number of boat installs, and 2 on vans, mostly with very similar spec Mastervolt gear. They seem to behave in much the same way as Victron though, in that as they get hot the fans come on, then at some point they throttle back. This is observing the charging output which can drop significantly, not sure what happens on the inverter side. Lithium batteries added to the issues I think, just because they have such good acceptance until they're full.

I don't know how that might effect reliability or longevity of the product, but particularly on installs going to spend most of the time in hot climates we made sure to fit this stuff in the most optimal manner given in some boats (and I suppose vans) the space was often not naturally well ventilated.

On my last boat we added vents top and bottom of the large locker concerned (MV Combi Ultra 24v) which helped, and on our current van (S Plus 61) the Multiplus II (12v) is in the garage unenclosed, but when charging at 100amps + the fan comes on pretty quickly so it does get hot. - But unless it's being monitored (or the wifes in bed) I wouldn't be aware of it, so wouldn't imagine there's any issue, and I confess I haven't checked to see if there has been any impact on the output, just because it doesn't take long to charge the battery normally, as such perfectly workable, but not optimal.

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[Lenny HB]

With the Multiplus 3000 if you are going to use at if full out and make use of the 120 amp charger it makes sense to mount as as Victron say.
If you are not going to use it to its potential why not fit a smaller unit.

 

[AdrianChen]

With the Multiplus 3000 if you are going to use at if full out and make use of the 120 amp charger it makes sense to mount as as Victron say.
If you are not going to use it to its potential why not fit a smaller unit.

Absolutely

 

[Ray-Vic]

Lenny HB and BDM I am certainly not an expert, in fact I struggle to understand the technical aspects of the charging process, but if you Google Victron Multicharger 2 installation orientation, on the Victron Web Site, you will find that Peter Kennedy, an installer, states that the Inverter Charges can be installed horizontally or vertically, for optimal cooling vertically is preferred. Victron state that they are grateful that Peter has allowed them to reproduce his guidance on their site.
Lenny HB I have always looked to your posts for expert advice but, in this instance, I feel that your comments wrongly accuse AJM of making a basic error and of being untrustworthy. Others on this forum may draw unwarranted conclusions from these comments. Surely, in this case, AJM have decided that the orientation of the inverter/charger is acceptable within the confines of the under seat storage. It may not be optimal but it is acceptable.

If you look at the installation manual for the Multiplus 120v, which is what that piece refers to, it does say it can be mounted horizontally or vertically (vertical preferred). However, if you look at the installation manual for the Multiplus 2, which is what you're referencing, you will see that this has been removed. Maybe this is because of overheating issues, or because the 2 units are actually different designs and the latter is simply not suitable for horizontal mounting?

Multiplus:

Multiplus 2:

 

[Conal]

Ray-Vic I agree. I couldn’t find any written reference to orientation in the manual on line but the advice from Peter Kennedy is still on the web site.

 

[Ray-Vic]

Ray-Vic I agree. I couldn’t find any written reference to orientation in the manual on line but the advice from Peter Kennedy is still on the web site.

It is, but it's referring to a different product which he was installing in line with the installation manual. I think the vast majority of units installed in motorhomes now are likely to be Multiplus 2, which Victron don't say can be installed horizontally.

Ultimately I think this whole debate is about choice and levels of risk that individuals are prepared to take, whether that be safety or premature failure of equipment. Personally I don't care how people install their units, be it a B2B, MPPT, charger or Multiplus. However, professional installers should, without fail, install items 100% in accordance with manufacturer's guidelines in order that warranties are valid, and that they are not the ones deciding the risk levels for the end user.

If user manuals are to be ignored with respects to location, what else, cable sizing, fuse ratings? Who here is more qualified than Victron to make that call? Not me that's for sure.

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[RogerIvy]

First prize is always to install any device (that might warm up) upright so that convection cooling can occur (especially DC-DC and Multiplus as they get pretty warm).

This is particularly important for a 30A Orion DC-DC charger because
1. It gets really hot at full blast
2. It has no fan
It will of course throttle back if it gets too hot, hence why some people install a fan to enhance cooling and thereby charge rate.
The XS gets rid of those problems to all practical purposes.

It is good practise to install a Multiplus vertical. But …
Unfortunately in the real world it’s not always possible to install a Multiplus vertically or in a large ventilated place. Even the smaller 1600va model is bigger than the vast majority of cheap stuff and too tall for lockers. The 2000 and 3000 are too tall for the vast majority of lockers. But sometimes the only place to install it is in a locker, sideways or flat on its back. In such cases the only way it can cool is by using the fan, which works fine most of the time. It’s critical in such cases to have reasonable airflow, what wouldn’t work well is a small “airtight” locker. The Multiplus would quite likely have to shut down to protect itself. We’ve known of several cases where this has happened. Luckily the Multiplus prevents damage to itself but at the expense of your appliance being useless until it cools down. In warm climates this situation will be exacerbated of course (and some might run their heating at tropical levels).
If the locker is suitably ventilated it would probably be ok unless you run it at it’s max for extended time.

Victron have a chart in the Multiplus & Phoenix inverter manuals that shows how it throttles capacity when it gets too hot.

 

[Conal]

Lenny HB Your point about the size of the inverter is well made. I had two gel batteries and a 1600w inverter. They wouldn’t support a heater or microwave, even with a six amp campsite supply. I insisted that James (AJM) supplied a 3000W inverter to allow me to use these both on and off grid. I then told James that I would really only be using the supply for habitat truma water and air heating and the fridge freezer. He suggested 300Ah of lithium and 300W of solar would be sufficient. I think more solar (up to a total 600W) would probably have been a better match for the battery and inverter setup but you live and learn.

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB Your point about the size of the inverter is well made. I had two gel batteries and a 1600w inverter. They wouldn’t support a heater or microwave, even with a six amp campsite supply. I insisted that James (AJM) supplied a 3000W inverter to allow me to use these both on and off grid. I then told James that I would really only be using the supply for habitat truma water and air heating and the fridge freezer. He suggested 300Ah of lithium and 300W of solar would be sufficient. I think more solar (up to a total 600W) would probably have been a better match for the battery and inverter setup but you live and learn.

I hope you don't mean running the heating and water heating just off the inverter as that would be crazy from such a small battery.

 

[BouncyBoatFolk]

Our B2B is tucked away under the passengers seat. This has two good points, 1 it's well tucked in out of the way and close to most of the pertinent electrics it has to work with. 2 we didn't have a heated passengers seat, but now we do
I never noticed much heat from it, but it is mounted using metal feet, and vertically.
Mike.

 

[Conal]

Lenny HB Off grid we would use the gas for the truma but wouldn’t the 300Ah be enough for our Dyson Hot+Cold?

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[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB Off grid we would use the gas for the truma but wouldn’t the 300Ah be enough for our Dyson Hot+Cold?

?? You have confused me.

 

[Conal]

Lenny HB Sorry. When off grid I hope to put the Truma air heating on gas but, to initially heat up the van, plug our Dyson heater on. Once the van is warm I would switch this off.

 

[peterc10]

Lenny HB Sorry. When off grid I hope to put the Truma air heating on gas but, to initially heat up the van, plug our Dyson heater on. Once the van is warm I would switch this off.

What is the wattage of the Dyson? I doubt you will be able to run heating off of you battery for very long. And if you did how would you be able to charge up the battery quickly?

 

[Conal]

peterc10 it’s the earliest model bought for my daughter but too noisy so I inherited it Normal wattage 1000W but low power mode 800W. Don’t know if it has an imperfect sin wave and spikes when initially switched on (haven’t the faintest idea of what I just wrote - read it on here) One of the lesser factors in our “grand upgrade” (£12,000 that is) was to be able to switch it on in camp sites.apt ior to the upgrade tripped the pole fuses at Melrose Gibson and Bolton Abbey. First try out earlier this week was when we used a free night at Cherry Hinton but the lithium batteries stayed at 100% so I assume the campsite power was 16Ah.
You asked very relevant questions. I suppose experience will guide me. I may end up on gas for everything except the Dyson and hoping for sun.
Hope this is on topic for the OP, if not I grovel hoping for forgiveness.

 

[DBK]

peterc10 it’s the earliest model bought for my daughter but too noisy so I inherited it Normal wattage 1000W but low power mode 800W. Don’t know if it has an imperfect sin wave and spikes when initially switched on (haven’t the faintest idea of what I just wrote - read it on here) One of the lesser factors in our “grand upgrade” (£12,000 that is) was to be able to switch it on in camp sites.apt ior to the upgrade tripped the pole fuses at Melrose Gibson and Bolton Abbey. First try out earlier this week was when we used a free night at Cherry Hinton but the lithium batteries stayed at 100% so I assume the campsite power was 16Ah.
You asked very relevant questions. I suppose experience will guide me. I may end up on gas for everything except the Dyson and hoping for sun.
Hope this is on topic for the OP, if not I grovel hoping for forgiveness.

I'm struggling to understand what you are trying to do. If on a site with EHU then you can use whatever you want up to the EHU limit. If you want more there are gadgets which can use your batteries to supplement the EHU but I'm not sure why you would need this other than on places with low wattage supply. We've come across 3A supplies but even this was fine for topping up the batteries. Just don't try an electric kettle.

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[Conal]

DBK You are correct. My setup was and is primarily for storage but we found some sites were around 6Ah. As you suggest we can complement this supply with the Inverter. We will use gas to boil the kettle on your advice

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB Sorry. When off grid I hope to put the Truma air heating on gas but, to initially heat up the van, plug our Dyson heater on. Once the van is warm I would switch this off.

I wondered why vacuum cleaners had made there way into the discussion.
No way would I run a heater off batteries you will flatten them in no time especially with such a small batteries.
A Truma Combi on gas warms up a van very quickly.

 

[Conal]

Lenny HB Thanks, I will take your advice. incidentally you have mentioned that 300Ah of lithium batteries are “small”. I thought that this increase from my 170Ah of gel batteries was a huge increase.

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB Thanks, I will take your advice. incidentally you have mentioned that 300Ah of lithium batteries are “small”. I thought that this increase from my 170Ah of gel batteries was a huge increase.

I've got 234 ah of gel in my van, next van will have 460 or 560ah of Lithium still far too small to run a heater.
The size of the battery is relative to the load, for what you want to do 300ah is small.

 

[peterc10]

I wondered why vacuum cleaners had made there way into the discussion.
No way would I run a heater off batteries you will flatten them in no time especially with such a small batteries.
A Truma Combi on gas warms up a van very quickly.

Lenny, Dyson has moved on from vacuum cleaners. Now it is anything that moves air including hair dryers, hand dryers and blown air heaters and coolers.

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[gus-lopez]

We need to define horizontal here,

It is defined in the instructions
"with the connections facing downwards"